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Old 09-26-2020, 03:51 PM   #61
jg61hawk
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Ref. below as you posted: I tend to think the below can't be correct. If you put the black lead on one side of the fuse holder and the red lead on the other and get a voltage reading of 6.27 that tells me the holder is grounded on one side and charged on the other...that seems very odd to me. Also can you just use the meter to test continuity with the fuse...just one side and the other and the meter beeps or reads 0. Please eliminate the fuse and holder ASAP. You understand the fuse holder only allows the voltage to move from the wire on the battery to the other wire...it can't be positive and negative at the same time. Use the engine block as your red positive ground and put your black tester on each end of the fuse holder. Only one end should have juice.

I rechecked the fuse holder, and I think I checked it incorrectly earlier. This picture is checking the radiator side of the holder with the black probe and the flywheel side with the red probe without a fuse installed. The holder itself seems good.

Last edited by jg61hawk; 09-26-2020 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 09-26-2020, 03:57 PM   #62
shew01
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
Please, please answer my question. Thats part of the frustration.

Are you getting voltage at the open movable point arm ? I know you are saying you're getting 6v.

Are you getting voltage at the stationary point block with the popsicle installed ? This is what we need to know.

Are you getting voltage [6v] at both points contacts when popsicle is removed ? You have said yes, but, want to make sure.
Yes, I am getting 6 volts on the moveable arm *AND* the stationary arm with the popsicle stick between the points.

I tested again, and I still get 6 volts on the points with nothing between them.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:07 PM   #63
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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plus it would a good way to learn how to time your car
I'm not opposed to learning to time my car. (Actually, that was my plan with the new Nu-Rex distributor that I posted about earlier in this thread.) However, I've read a number of threads about timing and retiming a Model A that I'd rather not risk breaking timing that has worked extremely well in the past. Normally, my car starts on the first crank with a single pull on the choke.

I did run across a Jack Bahm video ( https://youtu.be/mwirH7f0a9o ) that shows how to time a Model A. I worked through the video (without actually changing the timing on the car). I found TDC using the dimple, and I (crudely) soldered together a 6 volt test light that works. (This is a different test light than what I was using earlier in this thread.) However, I couldn't get the new test light to come on with advancing the spark a couple of clicks. I don't know if my current problem impacts that or not. But, I'm trying to change as little as possible in hopes of making debugging easier. I'll check around to see if I can find another distributor.
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:31 PM   #64
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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Originally Posted by jg61hawk View Post
can you just use the meter to test continuity with the fuse...just one side and the other and the meter beeps or reads 0.


Please eliminate the fuse and holder ASAP. You understand the fuse holder only allows the voltage to move from the wire on the battery to the other wire...it can't be positive and negative at the same time. Use the engine block as your red positive ground and put your black tester on each end of the fuse holder. Only one end should have juice.
Continuity:



Radiator side fuse holder connection:



Flywheel side connection:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:39 PM   #65
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Maybe that popsicle stick has some metal in it. Just for fun try putting a piece of paper between the points and see if that makes no voltage at the stationary point. I understand your not wanting to take the distributor apart and add another unknown but I do think your problem is inside the distributor. Hopefully you can borrow one soon and see if that helps.
At least you are helping to keep a bunch of old guys brain cells stimulated.
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Old 09-26-2020, 05:11 PM   #66
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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OK.
If you have voltage to both point contacts when they are closed, then, there is no ground. That can come from dirty point contacts, stationary block not grounding to upper plate. upper plate not grounding to housing, housing not grounding to cylinder head.

If you have voltage to both contacts while they are open, then, there is a primary lead problem as in it being screwed in too far or a wire connection contacting the housing or upper plate.

Don't worry about removing the distributor. Re-timing is not required if the points are not changed.
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:19 PM   #67
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Shew -
I think I may understand what you are doing incorrectly that may be adding to everyone's confusion. In post 58, you picture reading voltage ACROSS the fuseholder. Your voltage measurements must always be taken to GROUND.

So for example, when you reported that you had voltage on both sides of the fuse holder with the fuse OPEN and Pop-Out Ignition ON, everyone responded that it wasn't possible.... that something is very wrong.

Please try the following and report your findings back for each of the following steps:

Take the RED (Positive) lead of your meter, and find a good place to connect it to chassis GROUND, and LEAVE IT THERE. Take all meter readings this way.

1. Start at the fuse. With the fuse INSTALLED, insure that you have 6v on BOTH sides. (again, only using the black lead on your meter, with the red lead connected to a good chassis ground)
2. Check the terminal box. You should have 6v on BOTH posts.
3. With ignition OFF, check the coil. You should have 6v on BOTH sides of the coil.
4. Separate the points with your popsicle stick. With the ignition ON, you should have 6v on BOTH sides of the coil, and you should have 6v on the movable arm in the distributor points.
5. Be certain that your points can close and are not on a cam lobe, and remove the popsicle stick. You should have 0v on one side of the coil, and 6v on the other side.

Please report back with what you have, and we should be able to get you going.

Best regards
George
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:01 AM   #68
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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Just for fun try putting a piece of paper between the points and see if that makes no voltage at the stationary point.
I tried a business card, and the behavior did not change.
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:06 AM   #69
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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In post 58, you picture reading voltage ACROSS the fuseholder. Your voltage measurements must always be taken to GROUND.
That is correct. I was attempting to show that I don't have a short inside the fuse holder itself (because there was some doubt raised in earlier posts about the fuse holder connection). Sorry for the confusion.

I'll try to work through your suggestions as I find time. Today looks like a full schedule.

Thanks for the response.
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:17 AM   #70
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
OK.
If you have voltage to both point contacts when they are closed, then, there is no ground. That can come from dirty point contacts, stationary block not grounding to upper plate. upper plate not grounding to housing, housing not grounding to cylinder head.

If you have voltage to both contacts while they are open, then, there is a primary lead problem as in it being screwed in too far or a wire connection contacting the housing or upper plate.

Don't worry about removing the distributor. Re-timing is not required if the points are not changed.
Patrick,

I checked again this morning. With a business card between the points, I have 6 volts to the moveable point arm *and* the stationary block. I still have 6 volts to the moveable point arm *and* the stationary block with the points closed.

I don't think the points are dirty. I have used a point file on them (they appear to be fitting together squarely as they should), and I have run a $20 bill through them and a clean business card through them.
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:45 AM   #71
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Try cleaning the contacts with a rag and alcohol.

If the contacts are making good contact then the problem should be grounding. The power thru the stationary contact has to go to ground.

So you are losing the ground somewhere from that contact to the cylinder head, or, you are getting power backwards thru the primary cable.
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:49 AM   #72
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

A $20 bill is too smooth due to greater circulation. You should use at least a $500 bill or better yet a $1000 bill. Sorry, couldn't resist but I do hope you get your problem fixed soon. If you have your meter connected as GRutter explained in post #67 and you still have 6V on the stationary block with the points open then I agree with Patrick L's reply and it is time to remove the top plate in the distributor to see what is going on. Don't be afraid of learning how to time the engine. You will need to do it someday as maintenance on the car anyway.
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:32 AM   #73
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Shew 01
Back when you first had a no start, you stated that you changed the condsener, on the electrical connection of the condsener under the screw there's suppose to be an insulating washer. This washer can be a pain to install, check to make sure that connection isn't grounding out.
We are all hoping/ wishing that you can get it running !
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:42 AM   #74
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Lets make sure your distributor is grounded in the block.
You may have already done this, but with the points OPEN, take a voltage measurement from either of the junction box posts to the fixed point on the distributor. If you read 0 volts, then you have a grounding problem. If you read 6 volts (expected result), then the distributor is grounded.
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:31 PM   #75
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Shew what’s the latest looking for an update?!
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Old 09-27-2020, 05:35 PM   #76
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

No gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:36 PM   #77
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRutter View Post
Shew -
I think I may understand what you are doing incorrectly that may be adding to everyone's confusion. In post 58, you picture reading voltage ACROSS the fuseholder. Your voltage measurements must always be taken to GROUND.

So for example, when you reported that you had voltage on both sides of the fuse holder with the fuse OPEN and Pop-Out Ignition ON, everyone responded that it wasn't possible.... that something is very wrong.

Please try the following and report your findings back for each of the following steps:

Take the RED (Positive) lead of your meter, and find a good place to connect it to chassis GROUND, and LEAVE IT THERE. Take all meter readings this way.
GRutter,

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING!!!!
I think I found it. I have no formal training nor much experience in debugging electrical issues, especially on a 6 volt car, and positive ground has always "messed with my mind."

In all of my earlier posts, I was always starting with the black probe on the negative battery cable that attaches to the starter or the radiator side of the fuse holder (simply because both of them were easy to connect the probe alligator clip to with a sure connection, and I didn't realize that would impact the measurements). When I measured as you suggested, I found that one of the junction box studs did not have power. I put a temporary jumper between the two studs, and the horn started working, the lights started working, and the car actually started. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently, the ammeter was on its way to failure and was intermittent, and it eventually permanently failed during the testing of this ordeal. (I started a thread about ammeters awhile back, wondering if my ammeter was working correctly.)

The (thin) wire jumper that I used across the junction box is a temporary fix just to get the car started. I need to find another ammeter (which is another can of worms because new ammeters reportedly do not work well).

THANKS, EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND FOR HAVING PATIENCE WITH ME. This has definitely been yet another Model A learning experience for me.

Questions:

1. Is it safe to drive the car with a jumper across the junction box studs until I can locate a replacement ammeter?

2. If it is safe to run a temporary jumper, what gauge wire should I use for the jumper.
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:38 PM   #78
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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Originally Posted by Big hammer View Post
Shew 01
Back when you first had a no start, you stated that you changed the condsener, on the electrical connection of the condsener under the screw there's suppose to be an insulating washer. This washer can be a pain to install, check to make sure that connection isn't grounding out.
We are all hoping/ wishing that you can get it running !
Hmmm... I did not see any insulating washer. There are two screws on the condenser. Which one is supposed to have the insulating washer? The screw that is recessed into the distributor (on the driver side)? Or, the one on the passenger side of the distributor?
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:40 PM   #79
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

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No gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, there was plenty of gas. LOL When it finally started, I had a cloud of smoke in the garage. I'm surprised it didn't backfire through the muffler.
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:49 PM   #80
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Default Re: Car Will Not Start--No Apparent Spark

So glad you got it figured out and happy I could help.

Yes, it is absolutely safe to run your car with a jumper between the two studs on the junction box. It effectively only removes the ammeter from the circuit.
Use the same guage wire as currently running to the ammeter.

Alternatively, you could put both wires on the same terminal on the back of the ammeter until you get a replacement, but of course that would require that you unscrew the dash.

The only issue is you won't be able to see your charging or discharge rate. I suggest you use your battery disconnect switch, if you have one, until you replace your ammeter
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