The Ford Barn

sethkestenbaum · 11-20-2011, 06:10 PM

I have what is definitely one and what I suspect might be two electrical issues. I am hoping the FB electric detectives can help me on this one so I don’t chase wild geese this Thanksgiving week.

Background:

1) The battery in my car doesn’t appear to be charging from the car (it charges fine from a maintainer/charger).

2) The generator is a 1929 three brush powerhouse pancake with the top mounted cut out. The generator is spinning, the brushes all look like they have some life to them, I don’t know if the cut-off is working or not. I have not taken it off the car, but do have a few print outs from Fordbarn that I am going to follow if it is concluded that the generator/cut out is the problem (Tom Wesenberg, you “the man”).

3) The ammeter is working, but showing odd things. When I drive, it sits at 0. This is one of the reasons why I think the generator isn’t working correctly. Is this correct logic? I am assuming that I should show a positive charge when driving of 6-8 amps. This is how it has been performing since I got the car and got the ammeter working.

4) When I honk the horn, the ammeter dips down a little. When I turn the headlight switch one click to the left the ammeter reads slight negative (about 6 to 8) and the passenger side headlight lights up slightly. When I turn the headlight switch to the right one click the ammeter buries the needle to the negative and both headlights go on. When I go two clicks to the right the same thing happens and the needle is buried. When I put the switch back to “off”, the ammeter goes back to 0. This is why I think I may have a short somewhere. Is this correct logic?

Based on the above, any thoughts/suggestions/recommendations?

Thanks, Seth

Mike V. Florida · 11-21-2011, 03:12 AM

Start the car and with the throttle set higher than idle, measure the output of the Genny. I assume that the cutout is the same as the "newer" gennys, that is the output is accessable on top of side of the cutout. See if you get any voltage. If yes move on.

Turn off car, take the meter and measure the output of the cutout. (battery voltage)
Start the car and with the throttle set higher than idle, measure it again. If the voltage is higher then the first reading then the cutout is working.

steve s · 11-21-2011, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethkestenbaum

.... When I turn the headlight switch to the right one click the ammeter buries the needle to the negative and both headlights go on. When I go two clicks to the right the same thing happens and the needle is buried. When I put the switch back to “off”, the ammeter goes back to 0. This is why I think I may have a short somewhere. Is this correct logic? ...

Seth,

Sometimes ammeters over react and stick in the pegged out condition. Did you try just tapping on the glass with your finger tip to see if it's really pegged? I think you would smell smoke if you had a short. Is it possible that you have halogen lights installed that just draw more current than your ammeter can show?

Steve

sturgis 39 · 11-21-2011, 09:48 AM

I think you may have a short in you light circuit. Do you have a fuse on the starter?

Is there an indication of something being hot? What kind of bulbs are in the headlights?

You could have a bad ground on the lighting circuit.

sturgis 39 · 11-21-2011, 10:46 AM

What happens when you turn the headlights on without the engine running and the battery fully charged? The headlights should work great if you do not have a short.
If they do not work and you think the cut out is not working disconnect the cutout. Maybe the points in the cutout are stuck and the power house is trying to be a motor.

Patrick L. · 11-21-2011, 12:31 PM

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You may well have more than a single problem. Depending on what head-lite bulbs you're using will determine the discharge. Low beams should be in the 10-12 amp range and high's may be around 15 or more amps if you're using 50cp bulbs.. The factory connectors are famous for being troublesome and like to ground themselves[I eliminate them]..
Depending on what cut-out you have may determine how to fix the charging issue.. If you feed power to the generator it should try to motor.. If it does, its probably good and the generator may need polarizing.. To polarize, just jump across the cut-out terminals for a milli-second.. If you have one of the regulator or diode style cut-outs you'll probably fry it by jumping across it..

sethkestenbaum · 11-21-2011, 01:22 PM

The generator and cut out all appear original. The bulbs are also typical/traditional to a 1929. Based on the comments, I suspect that I will need to pull both lights and trace the wiring within them and then do the same with the leads to/from the wiring harness. Hopefully if there is a ground, cross or miswire issue, it will be readily evident.

In terms of charging, I haven't tried to polarize the cutout/generator by jumping across the cut-out terminals yet but will when I am next at the car this Thursday. I tried to remove the cut-out cover yesterday, but the nut on it started stripping so I thought I would dab it with a little PB Blaster and wait.

If there are any more thoughts/suggestions, please let me know.

Tom Wesenberg · 11-22-2011, 03:25 PM

Check the battery voltage at the starter switch with the engine off. Then check it again with the engine at about 1000 RPM and it should be higher than with the engine off. If it isn't higher then jump across the two cutout terminals to bypass it and see if the voltage is higher. If it still isn't higher then the generator may need work. On the powerhouse, when the brushes get worn enough the spring will stop pushing the brush into the commutator when it hits the brush holder. As en emergency fix, to get several more miles of use, you can wedge a small piece of cardboard between the spring and brush. It's not good to run the generator when the brushes aren't being pressed in to the commutator as it will cause arcing on the commutator bars.

sethkestenbaum · 11-26-2011, 03:55 PM

Today I tried to jump the cut out. I took a set of jumper cables and connected the front and back of the cut out with the car off but the battery connected. This set the ammeter at full drain. With the car running and doing the same thing, the ammeter was on full positive.

I assume that this means I have a bad cut out and that the generator is functioning. Is this correct? What are the "next steps"?

sturgis 39 · 11-26-2011, 05:23 PM

I would adjust the third brush to lower the charging rate. My understanding is the cut out opens the contacts to keep the generator from motoring. The output is adjusted by the third brush which lowers or raises the amps. What does the amp meter do when the car is not running?

I am not an expert on cut outs. Where is the third brush set at now?

sethkestenbaum · 11-26-2011, 05:27 PM

The ammeter sits at 0 when idling/running. If I honk the horn or click the light switch to the left, it shows a drain of -8. If I click the light switch to the right, I have full drain and a pinned needle.

sturgis 39 · 11-26-2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethkestenbaum

The ammeter sits at 0 when idling/running. If I honk the horn or click the light switch to the left, it shows a drain of -8. If I click the light switch to the right, I have full drain and a pinned needle.

Do you have a fuse in the circuit-like on top of the starter? I think you have a short or bad ground in the light circuit.

When you speed up the engine does the amp gauge peg out? When the engine is speed is up- what happen to the amp gauge when you turn on the brights and dims?

sethkestenbaum · 11-26-2011, 06:28 PM

Regardless of if the car is idling or moving at speed, if I turn the light switch to the right, the amp gauge pegs out at full drain. I have never seen the amp gauge read positive.

Ron in Quincy · 11-26-2011, 08:14 PM

I would suggest you remove the generator from the car, then remove the cutout. Using a 6 Volt charger, attach the negative lead to the output terminal of the generator, touch the positive to any clean ground on the generator; if the generator is working it should motor and draw about 3 amps on your charger. If it does not motor then it need rebuilding.

Ron

sturgis 39 · 11-26-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron in Quincy

I would suggest you remove the generator from the car, then remove the cutout. Using a 6 Volt charger, attach the negative lead to the output terminal of the generator, touch the positive to any clean ground on the generator; if the generator is working it should motor and draw about 3 amps on your charger. If it does not motor then it need rebuilding.

Ron

I agree with Ron 100%

sonny30coupe · 11-27-2011, 02:42 AM

That is pretty interesting Ron

Tom Wesenberg · 11-27-2011, 05:33 AM

It sounds like the cutout isn't working. If it's an original, you'll have to break loose or cut the two spot welds at the bottom of the cover to open it up. If you connect an ohm meter to the input terminal of the cutout and to the case, you should have about 50 ohms on an original cutout and about 30 ohms on a repro cutout. I've had some original cutouts that were an easy fix because the contact were dirty, or the coil ground had come loose due to a cold solder joint. To get the base hot enough for a good ground connection I use my Wen 250 watt soldering gun.

There have been threads detailing cutouts and pictures posted. Maybe a search will bring them up.

Also, it sounds like the lights have a short, as turning them on shouldn't peg the ammmeter, unless you are using very high amp draw bulbs.

sethkestenbaum · 12-02-2011, 06:05 PM

The generator "motored" when I attached it to a 6 volt battery. - Thank you Ron and Sturgis 39.

I removed the cut outs and cleaned the contacts. I have to find an ohm meter and do the 50 ohm test.

If the cut out is bad, what should I do until I replace it? I would like to continue to use the car but don't want to damage anything.

sturgis 39 · 12-02-2011, 10:16 PM

I think I would wait until you fix the old cutout or buy a new one. The way I understand the cutout keeps the generator from being a motor. If you run the car without the cutout you will be running the generator like an electric motor and you could burn up the generator because it will want to run when the engine is shut off. I just received a diode type cutout. It will not be installed until spring. I have been using the old mechanical type and have had no problems.

Model "A"s are cool even when they do not run.

Ron and Tom are the experts and they will probably reply.

ps I just looked at H and H Flat Heads website. They have some neat engines.

sethkestenbaum · 12-03-2011, 06:28 PM

The replacement cutout will be ordered on Monday.

I spent the night and the better part of today futzing with the headlights and trying to address their various shorts one headlight at a time. Apparently the existing socket assembly (what comes out of the headlight) and conduit connections (the bullet connectins from the wiring harness) are worthless. The leads/connections touch the assembly walls (and sometimes each other) when any attempts are made pair up connections correctly. New headlight wiring (with a new socket assembly) and a non-cracked wiring plug will also be ordered. I am hopeful that this will correct the two issues and that the generator still works properly.

Any recommendations or thoughts?

11-20-2011, 06:10 PM	#1
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Generator, Short, or Both? I have what is definitely one and what I suspect might be two electrical issues. I am hoping the FB electric detectives can help me on this one so I don’t chase wild geese this Thanksgiving week. Background: 1) The battery in my car doesn’t appear to be charging from the car (it charges fine from a maintainer/charger). 2) The generator is a 1929 three brush powerhouse pancake with the top mounted cut out. The generator is spinning, the brushes all look like they have some life to them, I don’t know if the cut-off is working or not. I have not taken it off the car, but do have a few print outs from Fordbarn that I am going to follow if it is concluded that the generator/cut out is the problem (Tom Wesenberg, you “the man”). 3) The ammeter is working, but showing odd things. When I drive, it sits at 0. This is one of the reasons why I think the generator isn’t working correctly. Is this correct logic? I am assuming that I should show a positive charge when driving of 6-8 amps. This is how it has been performing since I got the car and got the ammeter working. 4) When I honk the horn, the ammeter dips down a little. When I turn the headlight switch one click to the left the ammeter reads slight negative (about 6 to 8) and the passenger side headlight lights up slightly. When I turn the headlight switch to the right one click the ammeter buries the needle to the negative and both headlights go on. When I go two clicks to the right the same thing happens and the needle is buried. When I put the switch back to “off”, the ammeter goes back to 0. This is why I think I may have a short somewhere. Is this correct logic? Based on the above, any thoughts/suggestions/recommendations? Thanks, Seth

11-21-2011, 03:12 AM	#2
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? Start the car and with the throttle set higher than idle, measure the output of the Genny. I assume that the cutout is the same as the "newer" gennys, that is the output is accessable on top of side of the cutout. See if you get any voltage. If yes move on. Turn off car, take the meter and measure the output of the cutout. (battery voltage) Start the car and with the throttle set higher than idle, measure it again. If the voltage is higher then the first reading then the cutout is working. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

11-21-2011, 09:48 AM	#4
sturgis 39 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lead. South Dakota Posts: 963	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? I think you may have a short in you light circuit. Do you have a fuse on the starter? Is there an indication of something being hot? What kind of bulbs are in the headlights? You could have a bad ground on the lighting circuit. __________________ IF IT CAN NOT BE FIXED WITH BLASTING WIRE, JB WELD OR DUCT TAPE ---IT CAN NOT BE FIXED Do not get me started on the stupidity of ethanol. I think one of the monitors is from Iowa and he will delete the thread.

11-21-2011, 10:46 AM	#5
sturgis 39 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lead. South Dakota Posts: 963	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? What happens when you turn the headlights on without the engine running and the battery fully charged? The headlights should work great if you do not have a short. If they do not work and you think the cut out is not working disconnect the cutout. Maybe the points in the cutout are stuck and the power house is trying to be a motor. __________________ IF IT CAN NOT BE FIXED WITH BLASTING WIRE, JB WELD OR DUCT TAPE ---IT CAN NOT BE FIXED Do not get me started on the stupidity of ethanol. I think one of the monitors is from Iowa and he will delete the thread.

11-21-2011, 12:31 PM	#6
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) You may well have more than a single problem. Depending on what head-lite bulbs you're using will determine the discharge. Low beams should be in the 10-12 amp range and high's may be around 15 or more amps if you're using 50cp bulbs.. The factory connectors are famous for being troublesome and like to ground themselves[I eliminate them].. Depending on what cut-out you have may determine how to fix the charging issue.. If you feed power to the generator it should try to motor.. If it does, its probably good and the generator may need polarizing.. To polarize, just jump across the cut-out terminals for a milli-second.. If you have one of the regulator or diode style cut-outs you'll probably fry it by jumping across it..

11-21-2011, 01:22 PM	#7
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? The generator and cut out all appear original. The bulbs are also typical/traditional to a 1929. Based on the comments, I suspect that I will need to pull both lights and trace the wiring within them and then do the same with the leads to/from the wiring harness. Hopefully if there is a ground, cross or miswire issue, it will be readily evident. In terms of charging, I haven't tried to polarize the cutout/generator by jumping across the cut-out terminals yet but will when I am next at the car this Thursday. I tried to remove the cut-out cover yesterday, but the nut on it started stripping so I thought I would dab it with a little PB Blaster and wait. If there are any more thoughts/suggestions, please let me know.

11-22-2011, 03:25 PM	#8
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? Check the battery voltage at the starter switch with the engine off. Then check it again with the engine at about 1000 RPM and it should be higher than with the engine off. If it isn't higher then jump across the two cutout terminals to bypass it and see if the voltage is higher. If it still isn't higher then the generator may need work. On the powerhouse, when the brushes get worn enough the spring will stop pushing the brush into the commutator when it hits the brush holder. As en emergency fix, to get several more miles of use, you can wedge a small piece of cardboard between the spring and brush. It's not good to run the generator when the brushes aren't being pressed in to the commutator as it will cause arcing on the commutator bars.

11-26-2011, 03:55 PM	#9
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? Today I tried to jump the cut out. I took a set of jumper cables and connected the front and back of the cut out with the car off but the battery connected. This set the ammeter at full drain. With the car running and doing the same thing, the ammeter was on full positive. I assume that this means I have a bad cut out and that the generator is functioning. Is this correct? What are the "next steps"?

11-26-2011, 05:23 PM	#10
sturgis 39 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lead. South Dakota Posts: 963	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? I would adjust the third brush to lower the charging rate. My understanding is the cut out opens the contacts to keep the generator from motoring. The output is adjusted by the third brush which lowers or raises the amps. What does the amp meter do when the car is not running? I am not an expert on cut outs. Where is the third brush set at now? __________________ IF IT CAN NOT BE FIXED WITH BLASTING WIRE, JB WELD OR DUCT TAPE ---IT CAN NOT BE FIXED Do not get me started on the stupidity of ethanol. I think one of the monitors is from Iowa and he will delete the thread.

11-26-2011, 05:27 PM	#11
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? The ammeter sits at 0 when idling/running. If I honk the horn or click the light switch to the left, it shows a drain of -8. If I click the light switch to the right, I have full drain and a pinned needle.

11-26-2011, 06:28 PM	#13
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? Regardless of if the car is idling or moving at speed, if I turn the light switch to the right, the amp gauge pegs out at full drain. I have never seen the amp gauge read positive.

11-26-2011, 08:14 PM	#14
Ron in Quincy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy, CA. Posts: 1,708	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? I would suggest you remove the generator from the car, then remove the cutout. Using a 6 Volt charger, attach the negative lead to the output terminal of the generator, touch the positive to any clean ground on the generator; if the generator is working it should motor and draw about 3 amps on your charger. If it does not motor then it need rebuilding. Ron

11-27-2011, 02:42 AM	#16
sonny30coupe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kansas City KS Posts: 255	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? That is pretty interesting Ron

11-27-2011, 05:33 AM	#17
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? It sounds like the cutout isn't working. If it's an original, you'll have to break loose or cut the two spot welds at the bottom of the cover to open it up. If you connect an ohm meter to the input terminal of the cutout and to the case, you should have about 50 ohms on an original cutout and about 30 ohms on a repro cutout. I've had some original cutouts that were an easy fix because the contact were dirty, or the coil ground had come loose due to a cold solder joint. To get the base hot enough for a good ground connection I use my Wen 250 watt soldering gun. There have been threads detailing cutouts and pictures posted. Maybe a search will bring them up. Also, it sounds like the lights have a short, as turning them on shouldn't peg the ammmeter, unless you are using very high amp draw bulbs. Last edited by Tom Wesenberg; 11-27-2011 at 05:49 AM.

12-02-2011, 06:05 PM	#18
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? The generator "motored" when I attached it to a 6 volt battery. - Thank you Ron and Sturgis 39. I removed the cut outs and cleaned the contacts. I have to find an ohm meter and do the 50 ohm test. If the cut out is bad, what should I do until I replace it? I would like to continue to use the car but don't want to damage anything.

12-02-2011, 10:16 PM	#19
sturgis 39 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lead. South Dakota Posts: 963	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? I think I would wait until you fix the old cutout or buy a new one. The way I understand the cutout keeps the generator from being a motor. If you run the car without the cutout you will be running the generator like an electric motor and you could burn up the generator because it will want to run when the engine is shut off. I just received a diode type cutout. It will not be installed until spring. I have been using the old mechanical type and have had no problems. Model "A"s are cool even when they do not run. Ron and Tom are the experts and they will probably reply. ps I just looked at H and H Flat Heads website. They have some neat engines. __________________ IF IT CAN NOT BE FIXED WITH BLASTING WIRE, JB WELD OR DUCT TAPE ---IT CAN NOT BE FIXED Do not get me started on the stupidity of ethanol. I think one of the monitors is from Iowa and he will delete the thread. Last edited by sturgis 39; 12-02-2011 at 10:24 PM.

12-03-2011, 06:28 PM	#20
sethkestenbaum Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 632	Re: Generator, Short, or Both? The replacement cutout will be ordered on Monday. I spent the night and the better part of today futzing with the headlights and trying to address their various shorts one headlight at a time. Apparently the existing socket assembly (what comes out of the headlight) and conduit connections (the bullet connectins from the wiring harness) are worthless. The leads/connections touch the assembly walls (and sometimes each other) when any attempts are made pair up connections correctly. New headlight wiring (with a new socket assembly) and a non-cracked wiring plug will also be ordered. I am hopeful that this will correct the two issues and that the generator still works properly. Any recommendations or thoughts?