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Old 08-11-2020, 06:27 PM   #1
russcc
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Default Installing head studs in a 59L

I have installed NOS head studs in the 59L block. When I go to trial fit the aluminum afermarket head before assembly it can be pain to slide them over the studs to the deck. I used Permatex #2 on the stud threads into the block, and graphite based anti seize on the studs themselves. It almost seems that some of the studs may not be at exactly right angle to the deck which causing some interference. It seems I had a similar issue with the last set of heads I installed on a 59L a few years ago. Any suggestions from experience ?
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:50 PM   #2
flatjack9
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

It's painstaking, but the only sure way is to install 2 studs and check the fit. Install another and check, etc, etc, etc. I have a piece of pipe I put over the stud to bend to the proper orientation.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:12 PM   #3
Phil Gillespie
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

I had similar. Pulled the studs and went with bolts. A lot easier especially when using aluminium heads.
Phil NZ
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:40 AM   #4
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

I use bolts Torqued to 45 ft lbs for 3 heat cycles.
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

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Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
It's painstaking, but the only sure way is to install 2 studs and check the fit. Install another and check, etc, etc, etc. I have a piece of pipe I put over the stud to bend to the proper orientation.
My way was not so “High Tech”, I just tapped them with a brass hammer. 😮
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:31 AM   #6
GOSFAST
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

Over here we prefer studs, we use ONLY the ARP head stud kits.

We put our own kits together here to keep the cost lower over buying from ARP through the aftermarket suppliers!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'll put a "very important" tip here also, whether you choose bolts or studs, DO NOT (under any circumstances) install any type anti-freeze until it's all been fired up & broken in!! Been down this road here with some recent builds and also learned this from past dyno experiences!!
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

The studs need to be installed perpendicular to the block head surface and centered in the holes in the heads. Great care must to taken to be sure this is done. It is not difficult, it just takes time to be sure everything is correct. If you force a head on without correcting the studs you will have a major problem attempting to pull the head in the future.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:04 AM   #8
tubman
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

I'm now an "8BA guy", so I prefer bolts. I have never had any trouble with them, and remembering the problems I have had in with studs in the past, I'm glad I'm done with them.

One thing to note : current aftermarket heads have oversize bolt/stud holes in them. I think the manufacturers do this to alleviate the head removal problems seen with studs. They are large enough that the head can move around slightly when being installed. The best solution to this is to "pin" the heads, which is what the "pro's" ("GOSFAST" for one) do. I was beyond the machining stage when I installed my heads, so I made some sleeves from the proper sized aluminum tubing to put in the first two bolt holes to keep it from moving around on me. It seems to work well as I have not had a problem since I started doing it. I would think it would be a good thing to do with studs as well, given the "sloppy" fit you get with current aftermarket heads. You only need two per side.
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Old 08-12-2020, 01:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

Thanks for all the experience. Now I know why Vern Tardel uses head bolts instead of studs. But, I won't be removing the NOS studs as they are Ford, the best there is. I am almost to the point the head slides on almost all the way.

I used steel blueing in the ID of the stud holes in the heads and slid the head on. When I take it off you can see where a few studs are scraping the blue off because they are not straight.

I don't believe it's the studs, some of the stud hole threads in the deck are not perfect, and may be causing the studs to not be exactly vertical, or 90 degrees to the deck. I have used the tap the studs with the brass bludgeon and that works pretty good. I check them with a machinist square when I can get a flat surface to work off.

Question, how tight should crank the studs into the deck ?

That's interesting point about the later aftermarket head studs holes being drilled oversize. The heads are older Navarro's I bought directly from Barney at his shop in Glendale so they are not the new junk, and have standard size stock holes. I wouldn't go to the point of drilling them all out, but I have drilled out several in the Bridgeport from the original 15/32"s, .016 to 31/64"s and that has helped.

Patience in all that we do, and we will get the ultimate reward of job well done right. As W. Edwards Deming said; "There is no Instant Pudding"

Thank you all.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

This has been discussed many times before on this forum so there is a LOT of data for searching it.

Bolts are ok for street engines. After all, they used them from the factory on the later engines, mainly to save money though.

If you are going to use studs there are several ways to install them. Some require special machinery and tools, some are simple and mostly used.
The best way is to first clean the threads with a STANDARD tap, preferably in a mill or radial drill press. This assures the thread is square with the deck and mainline.
The simple way is to use a tapping fixture available at tool supply stores that holds the tap rigid and vertical while running it in.
Be sure the threads on the stud are absolutely clean with NO burrs. Check that a standard hard high nut runs freely down the whole thread. While checking threads, check the fine thread on the other end the same way. Better to find burrs now than after the stud is in the block. Be sure the fine thread is clean and dry. You will give it a final wipe and LUBE when installing the nut later.
The next step is the most important one. Apply the NON HARDENING sealer of your choice such as high temp RTV to the thread going in the block. Install the stud FINGER TIGHT to the bottom. BACK IT UP 1/2 TURN AND BE SURE IT WILL MOVE AROUND SLIGHTLY.
Let the studs sit overnight so the sealer sets up. They should be able to move very slightly now and the head should go on easily.
I have always used plain water for initial warm up and checks but NOT for dyno pulls.
I add a jar of Bars Leak for that.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
Over here we prefer studs, we use ONLY the ARP head stud kits.

We put our own kits together here to keep the cost lower over buying from ARP through the aftermarket suppliers!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'll put a "very important" tip here also, whether you choose bolts or studs, DO NOT (under any circumstances) install any type anti-freeze until it's all been fired up & broken in!! Been down this road here with some recent builds and also learned this from past dyno experiences!!
Explain please.
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Old 08-12-2020, 04:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
Over here we prefer studs, we use ONLY the ARP head stud kits.

We put our own kits together here to keep the cost lower over buying from ARP through the aftermarket suppliers!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'll put a "very important" tip here also, whether you choose bolts or studs, DO NOT (under any circumstances) install any type anti-freeze until it's all been fired up & broken in!! Been down this road here with some recent builds and also learned this from past dyno experiences!!

Explain please.
Hi Jack, which part??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y

P.S. The answer to the post or the P.S.??
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:57 PM   #13
russcc
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

So from what Pete says, is not to crank the studs into the block which I had been doing, but leave them a little loose. So I take when you tighten up the SAE thread that gets the USS and of the stud tight enough in the block. It sure sounds like that would make the head installation a lot easier.

I do like Jack's method of putting a few studs at a time and trial fitting the head each time to see what changes, That would isolate a problem studs or two. Might take little longer up front, but save a lot of time trying to sort out which stud or studs are binding in the head. I will try that tomorrow.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:58 PM   #14
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

Ronnie Roadster turned me on to Allen's Fasteners. Best price for ARP bolts/studs that I was able to find.

Once you buy 25, the price goes down even more. Well worth it and great customer service. Highly recommended.



https://www.allensfasteners.com
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

When you have a screwing machine, you can make your own.
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
Ronnie Roadster turned me on to Allen's Fasteners. Best price for ARP bolts/studs that I was able to find.

Once you buy 25, the price goes down even more. Well worth it and great customer service. Highly recommended.



https://www.allensfasteners.com
Those guys have lots of cool stuff. Wish I had known sooner
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:46 PM   #17
flatjack9
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

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hi jack, which part??

Thanks, gary in n.y

p.s. The answer to the post or the p.s.??
p.s.
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:06 AM   #18
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

The Factory studs have only 7 or 8 coarse threads, and are torqued into the block to prevent water from leaking, so I was told. I worked for the Bullard machine tool co and we torqued all the studs into the castings that held covers and other components to the basic machine. Probably a good idea. Not sure if it's really necessary. I wonder if any other engine manufacture ever used studs? GM, Chrysler. engines never had them. Regardless, The flathead block deck surface is very thin is many placed and over torquing can warp the area and cause distortion of the deck. Unfortunately, there is no proof to any of this question one way or another, just something to kick around every 6 months or so. There s no right or wrong answer.
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:29 AM   #19
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

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p.s.
OK Jack, with the additives, lubricants and rust inhibitors found in most anti-freeze brands today these all have an effect on the sealing of the studs.

These "additives" tend to allow "minor" leaks to continue for an extended period of time, sometimes literally "washing" away some of the bolt/stud sealer.

Most "minor" leaks will stop on their own and it's generally easier/quicker with plain water in the program.

About 95% of the "race" engine builders in our area tell all their customers to refrain from using anti-freeze from the get-go, this is a fact here anyway!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Back around 1965 when we were just starting out we had a discussion with Prestone about this scenario. It was actually their recommendation (back then) to fire all fresh builds with water only! I can add this also, through the years of dyno testing various builds we would see small amounts of water coming up the bolts/studs. We would also occasionally see some drips from the core plugs (rarer). The dyno uses fresh water only, no anti-freeze, and most times when the testing was finished the leaks would have already stopped on their own. You also don't need any anti-freeze leaking while trying to first start the fresh build, water doesn't make the same mess!!
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Old 08-13-2020, 12:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Installing head studs in a 59L

The fresh water break in jives with what we have heard on the barn here for years, the stud weeping stops by on it;s own, no help required.
I only use RMO water and No-Rosion, drain in the late fall past driving season and put in 40Af/60 RMO & No-Rosion, then back to the saved RMO & No-R in the spring. I have drain plugs in the radiator and block so it's relatively easy. Water has an a very good thermal transfer efficiency, so much so that Marine inter coolers recommend a maximum of 40% anti-freeze and 60 water.
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