The Ford Barn

aermotor · 03-30-2015, 06:35 PM

I want to remove the front cross member to sand blast and treat. Not frame off, engine in car, fenders off and radiator off. I have access to all the bolts and was thinking to support front of engine with a cherry picker by picking up a few timing gear cover bolts to remove the wishbone. What am I looking at with the frame spreading and issues with the spring to axel clamp bolts?

John

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 03-30-2015, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aermotor

I want to remove the front cross member to sand blast and treat. Not frame off, engine in car, fenders off and radiator off. I have access to all the bolts and was thinking to support front of engine with a cherry picker by picking up a few timing gear cover bolts to remove the wishbone. What am I looking at with the frame spreading and issues with the spring to axel clamp bolts?

John

The front crossmember is supposed to be riveted in, NOT bolted in. There is a lot of strength ( I.e.: excessive flex) loss when using bolts.

aermotor · 03-30-2015, 07:17 PM

This one is bolted in with 2 bolts each on the upper and lower flanges and 2 bolts on the vertical web for a total of 6 bolts on each end.

John

aermotor · 03-30-2015, 07:38 PM

As the old saying goes "It don't matter how the mule got in the ditch, how do you get him ou?"

John

aermotor · 03-30-2015, 09:50 PM

I have gone through the threads concerning front cross member riveting and the pros/cons of bolts. I have decided to replaces one bolt at a time with a rivet but still need my original questions concerning dissasembly of the cross member as I want to inspect and sand blast the cross member. In the event that I feel the cross member is rusted beyond safe use where would I find another that is not hot rod type?

John

Bob C · 03-30-2015, 09:59 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

They show up on Epay all the time, you just have to be sure
they are for the years you need. Seems like most of the sellers don't know
the difference between 28-29 and 30-31.

Bob

Mike V. Florida · 03-30-2015, 10:26 PM

First choice would be to obtain another front cross member and restore it and have it ready to place in the car. Next choice, I'd take the engine out to give room and have easy access to cross member.

Either way I would jack up the front and place stands under the frame. I would also raise up the engine a little and crib it so it does not move until the job is done.

The absolutely best way to replace/repair the front cross member, IMHO, is to remove every thing in the way, engine, radiator, fenders, webbing any thing within 2 feet on the area to weld or rivet.

aermotor · 03-31-2015, 07:41 AM

Another problem. I feel confident that I will be able to rerivet the front cross member by cribbing the engine to the frame and then the frame to the floor to support the front of the engine. The frame has 3 slightly counter sunk holes, however only the 2 front ones are used for the obvious reason that the back hole is right above the corner of the cross member. The cross member has 3 holes, the front 1 is used, the 2 nd hole is misdrilled by 1/2 a rivet hole and the
3rd is a unmolested 1/4" hole. The cross member is a little less than 4" at the frame flange edge and the front to back frame hole spacing is 3" center to center. Also the wishbone is not vertically in line with the 2 spring centers - it leans aft by about 1/2" - 3/4". I guess this is the wrong cross member. Suggestions for a fix?

John

Bob C · 03-31-2015, 10:42 AM

There should be seven rivet holes on each side. How about some pictures
and what year are you working on?

Bob

aermotor · 03-31-2015, 11:45 AM

I can't post a picture right now. It is a 28 Tudor December. There is no miss drilled holes in the frame. 2 end holes into the frame web, 1 in the front tab of the cross member to the frame flange, 1 in the rear flange of the crossmember into the frame flange, and 3 slight countersunk across the top flange. The top of the cross member is to narrow to pick up all 3 frame holes. The miss drill and missing fastener is in the cross member not the frame. The wishbone is back about 1/2" from a vertical of the spring bases.

aermotor · 03-31-2015, 07:27 PM

Not getting to much help here except valuable advice from BobC and MikeV. Bob what is the difference between 28-29 and 30-31? and Mike, I will take your advice when I find another cross member. 333 views and only 2 meaningfull answers. I will not take up anymore time and not post anymore except to say thanks to those who have helped. Thanks Bob and Mike.

John

ericr · 03-31-2015, 07:56 PM

sending pm

Tom Wesenberg · 03-31-2015, 08:02 PM

Have you done a search for "crossmember 1928 vs. 1930"?
I'm not sure which words would be the best to search, but I have posted pictures of the two styles. I can repost, if I can find my pictures again.

The information is also in both the "SERVICE BULLETINS" and "Judging Standards".

Bruskie · 03-31-2015, 08:14 PM

you need to have the proper riveting tools, one of which is offset to fit inside the frame rail and crossmember

Tom Wesenberg · 04-01-2015, 11:21 PM

Here's a thread with a couple pictures I posted to show the different radiator mounting pads.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...difference+tom

aermotor · 04-02-2015, 05:43 AM

Tom, Thanks for the pictures, The radiator deck height doesn't matter to me as I have the "short" radiator. I believe that there is 3 different cross members, 2 of which have the top rivet hole total spacing of 3 1/8" total for the 3 and one with a total rivet hole spacing of approx. 2 3/4" and one of the three having a tall aft flange to mount the engine solid. I am hopeing that the Service Bulletin book will tell the difference when it gets here. Bob C do you think this obsrvation is correct? Mike V - I have taken your advice and am ready to install when I find the correct cross member. I don't put stuff back with miss drilled and missing fasteners, even though I am making this a driver I am going to do what I do right - not like some of the "restorations" I have seen. For me the rivet installation is an afernoon "walk in the park". New Member doesn't mean Stoopid just inexperienced in Model A's Thanks guys.

John

dave in australia · 04-02-2015, 09:56 AM

John, one drawback with not removing items from the chassis before replacing the front cross member, is not knowing whether the chassis is square or not. It might take some extra time, bit I'd lift the body and remove the engine to remove the heavy weighted items and allow access to getting good measurements of the chassis, including diagonals to ensure it's square.

Bob C · 04-02-2015, 10:17 AM

I'm not sure of the hole spacing but the 1932 parts book shows
the same front cross member for 28-31 from this I would assume
that the later cross member should fit the earlier cars.

Bob

aermotor · 04-02-2015, 10:44 AM

Thanks Bob and Dave. I have the engine out and I installed a temp. cross piece next to the old one to maintain what ever squareness I have now. I do believe the 28-31 crossmemders are probably the same except for the radiator deck height, since I have the "short" radiator either should work with mount pad thickness change

John

Tom Wesenberg · 04-02-2015, 11:37 AM

Steve Plucker did a lot of research and wrote an article on Model A frame differences.
Maybe someone has a link to it.

03-30-2015, 06:35 PM	#1
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Front cross member I want to remove the front cross member to sand blast and treat. Not frame off, engine in car, fenders off and radiator off. I have access to all the bolts and was thinking to support front of engine with a cherry picker by picking up a few timing gear cover bolts to remove the wishbone. What am I looking at with the frame spreading and issues with the spring to axel clamp bolts? John

03-30-2015, 07:17 PM	#3
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member This one is bolted in with 2 bolts each on the upper and lower flanges and 2 bolts on the vertical web for a total of 6 bolts on each end. John

03-30-2015, 07:38 PM	#4
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member As the old saying goes "It don't matter how the mule got in the ditch, how do you get him ou?" John

03-30-2015, 09:50 PM	#5
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member I have gone through the threads concerning front cross member riveting and the pros/cons of bolts. I have decided to replaces one bolt at a time with a rivet but still need my original questions concerning dissasembly of the cross member as I want to inspect and sand blast the cross member. In the event that I feel the cross member is rusted beyond safe use where would I find another that is not hot rod type? John

03-30-2015, 09:59 PM	#6
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: Front cross member Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) They show up on Epay all the time, you just have to be sure they are for the years you need. Seems like most of the sellers don't know the difference between 28-29 and 30-31. Bob

03-30-2015, 10:26 PM	#7
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Front cross member First choice would be to obtain another front cross member and restore it and have it ready to place in the car. Next choice, I'd take the engine out to give room and have easy access to cross member. Either way I would jack up the front and place stands under the frame. I would also raise up the engine a little and crib it so it does not move until the job is done. The absolutely best way to replace/repair the front cross member, IMHO, is to remove every thing in the way, engine, radiator, fenders, webbing any thing within 2 feet on the area to weld or rivet. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

03-31-2015, 07:41 AM	#8
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member Another problem. I feel confident that I will be able to rerivet the front cross member by cribbing the engine to the frame and then the frame to the floor to support the front of the engine. The frame has 3 slightly counter sunk holes, however only the 2 front ones are used for the obvious reason that the back hole is right above the corner of the cross member. The cross member has 3 holes, the front 1 is used, the 2 nd hole is misdrilled by 1/2 a rivet hole and the 3rd is a unmolested 1/4" hole. The cross member is a little less than 4" at the frame flange edge and the front to back frame hole spacing is 3" center to center. Also the wishbone is not vertically in line with the 2 spring centers - it leans aft by about 1/2" - 3/4". I guess this is the wrong cross member. Suggestions for a fix? John

03-31-2015, 10:42 AM	#9
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: Front cross member There should be seven rivet holes on each side. How about some pictures and what year are you working on? Bob

03-31-2015, 11:45 AM	#10
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member I can't post a picture right now. It is a 28 Tudor December. There is no miss drilled holes in the frame. 2 end holes into the frame web, 1 in the front tab of the cross member to the frame flange, 1 in the rear flange of the crossmember into the frame flange, and 3 slight countersunk across the top flange. The top of the cross member is to narrow to pick up all 3 frame holes. The miss drill and missing fastener is in the cross member not the frame. The wishbone is back about 1/2" from a vertical of the spring bases.

03-31-2015, 07:27 PM	#11
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member Not getting to much help here except valuable advice from BobC and MikeV. Bob what is the difference between 28-29 and 30-31? and Mike, I will take your advice when I find another cross member. 333 views and only 2 meaningfull answers. I will not take up anymore time and not post anymore except to say thanks to those who have helped. Thanks Bob and Mike. John Last edited by aermotor; 03-31-2015 at 07:53 PM.

03-31-2015, 07:56 PM	#12
ericr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,542	Re: Front cross member sending pm

03-31-2015, 08:02 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Front cross member Have you done a search for "crossmember 1928 vs. 1930"? I'm not sure which words would be the best to search, but I have posted pictures of the two styles. I can repost, if I can find my pictures again. The information is also in both the "SERVICE BULLETINS" and "Judging Standards".

03-31-2015, 08:14 PM	#14
Bruskie Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: LaPorte, In. Posts: 67	Re: Front cross member you need to have the proper riveting tools, one of which is offset to fit inside the frame rail and crossmember

04-01-2015, 11:21 PM	#15
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Front cross member Here's a thread with a couple pictures I posted to show the different radiator mounting pads. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...difference+tom

04-02-2015, 05:43 AM	#16
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member Tom, Thanks for the pictures, The radiator deck height doesn't matter to me as I have the "short" radiator. I believe that there is 3 different cross members, 2 of which have the top rivet hole total spacing of 3 1/8" total for the 3 and one with a total rivet hole spacing of approx. 2 3/4" and one of the three having a tall aft flange to mount the engine solid. I am hopeing that the Service Bulletin book will tell the difference when it gets here. Bob C do you think this obsrvation is correct? Mike V - I have taken your advice and am ready to install when I find the correct cross member. I don't put stuff back with miss drilled and missing fasteners, even though I am making this a driver I am going to do what I do right - not like some of the "restorations" I have seen. For me the rivet installation is an afernoon "walk in the park". New Member doesn't mean Stoopid just inexperienced in Model A's Thanks guys. John

04-02-2015, 09:56 AM	#17
dave in australia Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,176	Re: Front cross member John, one drawback with not removing items from the chassis before replacing the front cross member, is not knowing whether the chassis is square or not. It might take some extra time, bit I'd lift the body and remove the engine to remove the heavy weighted items and allow access to getting good measurements of the chassis, including diagonals to ensure it's square.

04-02-2015, 10:17 AM	#18
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,751	Re: Front cross member I'm not sure of the hole spacing but the 1932 parts book shows the same front cross member for 28-31 from this I would assume that the later cross member should fit the earlier cars. Bob

04-02-2015, 10:44 AM	#19
aermotor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,099	Re: Front cross member Thanks Bob and Dave. I have the engine out and I installed a temp. cross piece next to the old one to maintain what ever squareness I have now. I do believe the 28-31 crossmemders are probably the same except for the radiator deck height, since I have the "short" radiator either should work with mount pad thickness change John

04-02-2015, 11:37 AM	#20
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Front cross member Steve Plucker did a lot of research and wrote an article on Model A frame differences. Maybe someone has a link to it.