29 Tudor windlace question

[fred93]

The windlace that goes around the door openings on the Tudor--is it installed as one piece with notched corners OR are they three separate pieces? If they are three pieces how are the corners fitted? Photos would be helpful.

[Steve Plucker]

Fred,

They are three separate pieces.

The one on the wooden door post is tacked to the wood. the one above the window is also tacked to the wood. To assemble the cowl post windlace, you have to remove the 7 or so rivets from the metal strip. The windlace has sewn to it a strip of cardboard which fits into the special metal strip with rivets.

Hopefully someone can chime in on the rest of your questions.

Pluck

[fred93]

Originally Posted by Steve Plucker

Fred,

They are three separate pieces.

The one on the wooden door post is tacked to the wood. the one above the window is also tacked to the wood. To assemble the cowl post windlace, you have to remove the 7 or so rivets from the metal strip. The windlace has sewn to it a strip of cardboard which fits into the special metal strip with rivets.

Hopefully someone can chime in on the rest of your questions.

Pluck

Thanks for your reply--where can I purchase the rivets for the metal strip that holds the windlace in place on the front pillar?

[Gary Karr]

Also, the upper windlace piece has a cardboard strip stitched to it. The piece is then fitted under the upper molding that is screwed into place. There is no place to tack it into place as there are metal body structural pieces in the way.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

Also, the upper windlace piece has a cardboard strip stitched to it. The piece is then fitted under the upper molding that is screwed into place. There is no place to tack it into place as there are metal body structural pieces in the way.

Thanks Gary...You are so right...It is hell getting old!

Pluck

[Steve Plucker]

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Originally Posted by fred93

Thanks for your reply--where can I purchase the rivets for the metal strip that holds the windlace in place on the front pillar?

I matched the head of the original rivet to a newer one.

But If I recall right, it has been almost 38 or so years, I used Split Rivets on that area...eaiser to install that way.

Pluck

[Dean Lemoine]

I would recommend attaching the metal strip at the front of the door as tight as possible, especially where it curves about midway. If the fit isn’t tight, the door garnish is going to hit it, making the door hard to close. How do I know that, you ask..........!$&’%@.

[Gary Karr]

A semi tubular rivet was originally used. They can be set in tightly.

[fred93]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

A semi tubular rivet was originally used. They can be set in tightly.

Thanks Gary--I noticed that some suppliers sell split rivets and some sell tubular. I agree that the tubular would be tighter, however they are more difficult to set. Is there a special tool to set tubular rivets?

Also--how are the corners of the windlace made? Forty-five degree cuts or straight cuts?

[Gary Karr]

Your corners are straight cuts. Trim your windlace material about 1/2" longer than the tube in your windlace and push it down inside the tube to give yourself a clean end. The verticals should go all the way to the top and your upper piece, with the ends finished the same way, will fit inside the vertical pieces for a clean and tight look.

[fred93]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

Your corners are straight cuts. Trim your windlace material about 1/2" longer than the tube in your windlace and push it down inside the tube to give yourself a clean end. The verticals should go all the way to the top and your upper piece, with the ends finished the same way, will fit inside the vertical pieces for a clean and tight look.

Thanks Gary--Right now I am trying to figure out how I am going to set hollow tube rivets with just two hands! I saw a hand rivet squeezer on ebay, but I don't want to spend $150 to set 14 rivets. I have a little setting tool to set the rivets on the e-brake shoes but I don't know if that will work too well.

Also, the windlace that I have does not have any cardboard attached to it. Any thickness figures on the cardboard? And someone said that the cardboard needs to be sewn onto the windlace--I don't have any upholstery shop near me--so what other option do I have? Superglue LOL!

[Gary Karr]

Setting the semi tubular rivets is a two person job, one to buck the rivet head, and one to punch and separate the tube end. You don't need to purchase any expensive tools. A pointed end punch should split the tube end and a flat end punch should finish the process. Make sure that you don't use rivets that are too long as they won't tighten.
As for the cardboard strips, they are not thick. They would be about 5/8" wide. I've even made them from cereal boxes! If you have a home sewing machine, you could do them yourself.

[Gary Karr]

On your metal retaining moldings, make sure that they fit properly as there are rights and lefts.

[rotorwrench]

I'm not sure if Big Flat's has tube rivet tooling or not. It's mostly used for brake lining rivets but there are a lot of other things that use them too. Each diameter size requires a different setting tool. If you look at the business end of one of these sets, it looks like a mold impression for a tiny doughnut. This shape rolls the edges of the buck tail around to meat the base metal. The rivet tail has to be soft enough to conform to this shape without cracking so many of them are soft annealed brass or copper but they work harden quickly so a person wants to set them with minimal blows or all in one quick squeeze if they use a squeezer.

[fred93]

Originally Posted by Gary Karr

Your corners are straight cuts. Trim your windlace material about 1/2" longer than the tube in your windlace and push it down inside the tube to give yourself a clean end. The verticals should go all the way to the top and your upper piece, with the ends finished the same way, will fit inside the vertical pieces for a clean and tight look.

Hey Gary,

I found the instruction sheets from LB (now defunct) please see photos. It says to install the upper windlace first and then install the quarter lock pillar windlace. Install the front windlace last.

I'm not quite sure about their comment "Finish bottom ends of pillar windlace pieces even with the floor or bury into the scuff plate" That "bury into the scuff plate" is what I don't understand! The instructions also stated that the upper windlace should be cemented to the bottom of the door opening header after removing the door opening header finish strip (fig. 1)

Also, I have attached some photos of the windlace that I have, which came from LB pior to me working on the car. Does the color look about right? The photos look more blue than grey but in looking at them in person they seem more grey than blue. I'd hate to spend a butch of time installing this windlace only to find out that it is wrong.

[fred93]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I'm not sure if Big Flat's has tube rivet tooling or not. It's mostly used for brake lining rivets but there are a lot of other things that use them too. Each diameter size requires a different setting tool. If you look at the business end of one of these sets, it looks like a mold impression for a tiny doughnut. This shape rolls the edges of the buck tail around to meat the base metal. The rivet tail has to be soft enough to conform to this shape without cracking so many of them are soft annealed brass or copper but they work harden quickly so a person wants to set them with minimal blows or all in one quick squeeze if they use a squeezer.

Back in 2013 I was just finishing up a restoration on a 54 L-21B (PA-18 Super Cub) and the owner bought a rivet squeezer kit. I went to his hangar and there it was! Just what I needed. I will need to purchase the semi tubular rivet set pieces before I can use it on the A.

[Tacoma Bob]

Google Hills saddlery. I just looked at some 3/8 tube rivets for you. Our local fastener company calls them sex rivets. Worth a look. I used them to attach the tack strips to my Tudor backrests. They were dead on to my originals. Two pieces they thread into one another and no bucking bar needed. One man job for sure.

[Gary Karr]

Fred, the windlace that LB sent to you is about as good as you're going to get unless you get something custom made. Go with it and I think you'll be happy with how it looks. As to the LB installing instructions, do whatever you are comfortable with. They are telling you to glue the upper piece to the upper door molding because they did not stitch a cardboard piece to the windlace. I have an original piece with the cardboard piece attached but unable to attach a picture as I am currently in Uruguay.

[Gary Karr]

Also, LB's instructions on finishing the bottoms of the vertical pieces is telling you to make sure that you finish them long enough to the subframe or scuff piece. You can cut your verticals longer and then trim the bottoms once in place. Remember to give yourself about 3/4" more fabric than tubing as that will get tucked in the tube to finish your ends.

[rotorwrench]

There are several good threads on windlace on this forum. The rubber tube can be trimmed back so that the material can be stuffed up inside the tubing or it will leave a tail that can be tucked somewhere else or cemented to something.

The stuff LB (Had) was a worsted pattern similar to the pattern in the photos of cloth windlace in the book "The Ford Model A As Henry Built It" There is a thread from a few month back on here that also has photos of original Model A windlace. If SMS Auto Fabrics buys the LB businesses and holdings, perhaps they will attempt to weave some more accurate windlace in the future but that is a big maybe. Right now, you have to use the best you can find.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...indlace&page=2

I'm not sure if they make tubular rivet squeezer sets. If they do, I'll purchase a set of them for my squeezer. A person could make their own on a lathe but it would take a while.

Found some! https://www.browntool.com/Listview/t...a/Default.aspx