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Old 07-09-2019, 06:14 AM   #21
bigd1101
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

After years of buying and selling old cars and trucks and restoring one (my first old car) a 1956 Plymouth Belvedere, in 1973, I swore I would never do that again. I found that unless the car is rare and desirable, two criteria that make restoring a car worth the time and $$$$, you'll never get the money back you invested. I then decided to be that guy that buys cars already done over, in various degrees, mostly good solid "10 footers" or better that some other poor bastard sunk his life savings into and gets married, divorced, has a kid or two and lets his car go for a fraction of what he has into it. Then, when I got tired of it, sold it for a profit. I wouldn't touch that car you are looking at with a 20 foot pole. The Model A in my avatar is a sweet car, with a 20 year resto job, paid a tad below "book value" and yet, found I needed to sink about $1000 into it so far to get it up to snuff so even my method was not fool proof and being my first A, a hard lesson. Next time I'll know what to look for. There are thousands of Model A's out there for sale.....shop around, pay a little more, be a lot happier. Here is a frame off 1952 restored Plymouth I bought off eBay for $5000 about 15 years ago, won a few car show trophies, sold it for $8000.




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Old 07-09-2019, 06:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

Thanks again everyone for your input! I'm most likely going to pass. By driver I meant something with decent paint, interior, and mechanicals. The Fordor has too many unknowns. I know I can get a really nice coupe or Tudor right now for $8000, which is probably what I will end up doing.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

Johnnya, I dont know 'As' but I have dabbled in old cars a bit. Cheap/inexpensive is not always the best way to buy a classic, really should almost be the last reason to buy one. Looks like you may be on the right track with the Coupe or Tudor for a bit more money. Like tools, buy the best one you can afford.
Brent, I respect your opinions from looking at your shop and work. You surely know these cars inside and out. However I have to disagree with you this time. First, in the vernacular of the old car industry all cars are NOT survivors simply because they exist. You are correct in your statement but generally speaking a vehicle that wears its original paint and has its original drivetrain and int. is a survivor. Not too many exist anymore. Also, I would venture to guess that MOST old cars that are restored are done so by the home hobbyist. I would think the majority of us guys silly enough to attempt to do so have the skill set to accomplish and know the people that can take care of the things we dont know. This is no bash on the professional restoration shop of course.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

If your into old cars for a return on investment this is a bad deal,no doubt.That being said,there isnt alot of meat on the bone with model A's,rare you find one with decent flip potential.I should use the term 'unmolested' instead of survivor,the car that hasn't been 'restored'. Another thing to consider is owner build vs pro build,for instance,I do all my own work and it WILL show against a professional's work,without a doubt. There are others who demand perfection with the money to achieve it.Most owner/builders sacrifice perfection for satisfaction and pride of accomplishment...Both are admirable traits.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:46 AM   #25
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

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Originally Posted by 77Birdman View Post

Brent, I respect your opinions from looking at your shop and work. You surely know these cars inside and out. However I have to disagree with you this time. First, in the vernacular of the old car industry all cars are NOT survivors simply because they exist. You are correct in your statement but generally speaking a vehicle that wears its original paint and has its original drivetrain and int. is a survivor. Not too many exist anymore. Also, I would venture to guess that MOST old cars that are restored are done so by the home hobbyist. I would think the majority of us guys silly enough to attempt to do so have the skill set to accomplish and know the people that can take care of the things we dont know. This is no bash on the professional restoration shop of course.

Listen there is no harm in disagreeing with me!! My point is better asked this way, ...what has this car "Survived" from that other cars have not?


Generally speaking, a preserved car that has 'survived' would be the Fordor that the late Dave Lopes showed and drove, -or Jim Sinclair's Roadster, -or other similar vehicles that are a fully functioning automobile with quality original paint, interior, and mechanicals that accurately and authentically portray the vehicle as it was originally manufactured. This vehicle IMO does not qualify in any of those areas. Now I would agree that this particular vehicle has 'survived' better than some other Model-As however there are MANY other example of unrestored Model-As that are in better condition yet do not qualify as a 'survivor'.



Society as a whole has chosen to stretch the truth and alter history so that it benefits themselves and their agenda. The words "all original", "barn find", "Survivor", "New Old Stock", "restored", et/al are words that are so misused in our modern culture that many people do not truly know the true meaning, and as such they are meaningless when trying to accurately describe a vehicle. I trust you understand my point of view better now. If you still choose to disagree, that is fine and I respect that.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:53 AM   #26
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

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Listen there is no harm in disagreeing with me!! My point is better asked this way, ...what has this car "Survived" from that other cars have not?


Generally speaking, a preserved car that has 'survived' would be the Fordor that the late Dave Lopes showed and drove, -or Jim Sinclair's Roadster, -or other similar vehicles that are a fully functioning automobile with quality original paint, interior, and mechanicals that accurately and authentically portray the vehicle as it was originally manufactured. This vehicle IMO does not qualify in any of those areas. Now I would agree that this particular vehicle has 'survived' better than some other Model-As however there are MANY other example of unrestored Model-As that are in better condition yet do not qualify as a 'survivor'.



Society as a whole has chosen to stretch the truth and alter history so that it benefits themselves and their agenda. The words "all original", "barn find", "Survivor", "New Old Stock", "restored", et/al are words that are so misused in our modern culture that many people do not truly know the true meaning, and as such they are meaningless when trying to accurately describe a vehicle. I trust you understand my point of view better now. If you still choose to disagree, that is fine and I respect that.

Agree 100%.....here is a good write up on "survivor cars". https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...or-car-or-not/
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

I agree with Brent and others that this car needs a lot of restoration. I restored a '28 blindback from a frame off restoration and it is a LOT of work and $. Was able to do a lot of the work myself, but the engine, mechanicals and final paint I left to professionals. Since I had a full cabinet shop, and the wood was in great shape, still had to rebuild the seat frames, front seat frame, arm rests and some bows for the top. The mechanicals were done by a retired model maker for only $30.00 per hour. Did the top, upholstery and assembly myself. Would match the finished product against anyones work. It takes a lot of time, patience and $ to do the job correctly.
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

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Looks like I'll pass on it. Looking at those interior shots worries me. That water staining could be signs of water and wood rot. Really don't want to have to deal with that.


Seller said it was a 31, knew there was something off!
Johnny - Good decision. Assuming the wood, sheet metal, and mechanicals are serviceable, this ride is at least $10K away from being safe and presentable. Everything which wears is probably worn and requires rebuild. If the serious work must be contracted out the bill would be extensive. The drive line alone could easily take $8k if all is rebuildable. A hobbyist with near professional skills might break even but it is not likely. There are many $10-15K drivers out there that look good and are turn key. Recommend you keep watching and the ride that is right for you will be found. Good Luck.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:45 PM   #29
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

I donno if you can get a "good" Tudor for $8,000. If the car has truly been gone over and is a solid and safe "driver" with good engine, correct paint...well then ....also a good set of working set of Stipe shocks....well how about $13,000 to start the conversation!
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

I suggest you do what I wish had dome MANY years ago. Find the nearest Model A Club MAFCA or MARC and talk to members. Find a car that runs and realize that "fixing them up" (whatever you want to call it) takes time and money. More time then you are likely to have and perhaps more money, whereas if you buy one that runs and meets you "looks" criteria you are in it driving.


A tudor recently sold near me for $9000 in excellent running condition. There is a 1920 coupe for sale (dual side mounts) by a club member for $8500. The good runners that look decent don't all coast $20K up!


p/s. I I had spent $6000 in 1978 instead of $600........ never mind, long story.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

https://model-a-ford.org/category/cl...cars-for-sale/ 1929 FORDOR $9500
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Old 07-10-2019, 07:40 AM   #32
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

Sorry to the OP for the hijack, I do agree with your response to my post Brent. I too get annoyed when I see an add for a car that says something to the effect 'all original, only 1 repaint'!!!!!
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Old 07-10-2019, 08:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

I see how new you are to mod. A s, I was there myself when I bought my Town Sedan. It was worse than yours, much worse! It does appear to be a Town Sedan. It has cowl lights, rear seat fold down arm rest. Where is the interior light, in the center? or just above the rear window? The wood is intimidating. Does it appear to have been stored in a damp area?. The rot seems to start at the bottom . The total cost of new wood is about $8,ooo, I was able to duplicate a lot of the bad wood in mine. But bear in mind, There's not a right angle in any of it. How's the tin, bodywork? Is it a mass of rust, did mice get to it? There are many replacement patch panels made for a A and the cost isn't bad. Really good fenders will cost about $400-500 for the fronts and about 250-300 for the rears . How's the steering box? does it have a click in it? (Broken upper bearing race) Does it have a lot of play in the steering wheel? It may need an adjustment or a rebuild- parts are about 3-4 hundred. How's the glass? A windshield cost me $150. I don't mean to discourage you, only educate. I would allow the owner to see these costs and then apply them to his cost. You might have a winner! then again ,maybe not. I believe that the fordors were junked in large numbers and are becoming a little scarce. The Town Sedan was the top of the fordors and are genuinely worth saving.
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Old 07-10-2019, 08:53 AM   #34
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

No matter what car you end up with,unless its completely restored you are going to spend money and time on it.When choosing a car to own unless you are in business price is not the only factor.A complete relatively unmolested car,what this one appears to be..is your best bet,most reproduction parts are junk,and previous 'restorations' can be a nightmare,not all cars are restored the same. You need to balance ability and wallet..ability small? wallet big..ability big?wallet small.Having a vision of what you want in a completed car is a must,'profit' or return on investment?youre in the wrong business..
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

It’s a “Hobby”. This is not your 401K.

I would just keep a few things in mind. Brakes, tires, tubes, shocks, springs, front end, wiring, cooling system, and just a working engine/transmission. $$$$$$$$$$$$!

I like a nice 20 footer that’s been owned by the same person for a good number of years. As stock as possible.

There all used cars. Buyer beware. Enjoy.

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Old 07-10-2019, 11:16 AM   #36
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

Quarter windows do not roll down, looks to have the center arm rest in the back seat, not slant window, so a 160B is out.
has the '31 radiator shell, but those are interchangeable, need to run the engine numbers and see what comes up, Could be a '30- early '31 Std fordor
No matter how you look at it...a lot of wood in this one
follow the link below to run the engine numbers, assuming that the engine is original to the car (rare)
http://www.modelahouse.com/cgi-bin/enumbers/numdate
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

It’s a “Hobby”. This is not your 401K.

But prudence should prevail! How many hobbies of golf, boats airplanes have taken an unexpected toll on finances? I’ve seen resto projects thought to gonna be $10k end up $60k!
Always good to look at things with a “value eye”
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

Yeah I began thinking"Yeah let some poor sap do all the work and I'll pay some extra cash and have a finished car, NO MORE WORK!" Boy was I ever wrong! I paid the extra cash and this what I got for my money! Cheap paint job, no primer!, Steering box rebuild, Costs, 4 or 5 days and a couple of hundred $$, Transmission, It jumped out of gear bringing it home, I figured I didn't have it all the way in gear. No, Soft Chinese (?) steel! It was worn where the 3rd gear engages the sliding gear. I had to replace the input shaft and a couple of times in and out of the car, what's that worth? Next, The pinion bearing went, I had to rebuild the rear + $700 for a new gear set ( 3.54 vs 3.78) and bearings etc. + 2 1/2 months downtime! Now it's the brakes! And so It goes! For this I paid $8500 about five years ago! Get the car cheap and do your own work with known parts!
Terry





Quote:
Originally Posted by Railcarmover View Post
No matter what car you end up with,unless its completely restored you are going to spend money and time on it.When choosing a car to own unless you are in business price is not the only factor.A complete relatively unmolested car,what this one appears to be..is your best bet,most reproduction parts are junk,and previous 'restorations' can be a nightmare,not all cars are restored the same. You need to balance ability and wallet..ability small? wallet big..ability big?wallet small.Having a vision of what you want in a completed car is a must,'profit' or return on investment?youre in the wrong business..
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:48 AM   #39
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

Sold for $8500 on eBay. Just one example of the wide array of Model A's on there. I've bought and sold cars on eBay for many years with no problems.......it's a good place to find "bargains" regardless of some of the stories you hear. I would start there. Go to "sold listings" first to see what A's are selling for, check the pictures and the descriptions carefully. The seller's "feedback" is crucial too. Some cars are a "Buy it Now", some say "make an offer" and some are straight up auctions. Either way, you'll find just the car you want at the price you want and you won't have a basket case or money pit.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1930-Ford-M...p2047675.l2557
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:53 AM   #40
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Default Re: Should I pass on this A? Or would I miss out on something?

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Yeah I began thinking"Yeah let some poor sap do all the work and I'll pay some extra cash and have a finished car, NO MORE WORK!" Boy was I ever wrong! I paid the extra cash and this what I got for my money! Cheap paint job, no primer!, Steering box rebuild, Costs, 4 or 5 days and a couple of hundred $$, Transmission, It jumped out of gear bringing it home, I figured I didn't have it all the way in gear. No, Soft Chinese (?) steel! It was worn where the 3rd gear engages the sliding gear. I had to replace the input shaft and a couple of times in and out of the car, what's that worth? Next, The pinion bearing went, I had to rebuild the rear + $700 for a new gear set ( 3.54 vs 3.78) and bearings etc. + 2 1/2 months downtime! Now it's the brakes! And so It goes! For this I paid $8500 about five years ago! Get the car cheap and do your own work with known parts!
Terry
There is no greater satisfaction than learning a new skill,doing the research,practicing and learning new methods.In a lot of ways doing your own work is the high point of owning the car,its a let down when its done.
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