Excess oil....???!!!???

[bobpo]

It was an absolutley beautiful day here in NW Ohio so Momma & I decided to take Miss Tillie for a drive. 122+ miles in all, along the river etc.

I noticed that after a long stretch of roadway and then parking, I could see a puddle of oil on the ground below the engine pan on the driver's side. When we got home, I lifted the hood and found that the sock I had covering the oil breather was overly saturated with engine oil and oil was running down the pan and onto the floor.

Do I have too much oil in the engine that would cause this? The breather tube has at least a couple of baffles in it.

[700rpm]

The sock may have blocked the breathing and caused back pressure, which would force oil out the rear main. Or the small tube on the rear main cap might have come loose and dropped into the pan. Or you might have a bad rear main bearing. If you have more than 4-1/2 qts of oil in her, you have too much, but I'm not sure that would cause your problems. All these theories are predicated on running a stock Model A. If you've modified the engine, all bets are off.

[bobpo]

I'm leaning toward the amount of oil. I may have too much oil in it. The sock is a loose fitting one. The oil is all over the engine pan below the Oil Breather/Filler Tube and dripping down the pan and onto the floor. I'm going to try to remove some of the oil with a suction pump as there is too much on the dipstick. (above the "FULL" mark).

[CarlG]

Are you sure there isn't water in the bottom of the pan that would raise the level of oil?

[bobpo]

There's no foam on the dipstick immediately after driving for a distance.

[Milton]

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As you mentioned, it is probably a higher than normal oil level. I had the same situation and I allowed it to seek its own level. I had a piece of foam rubber in the cap and, when I removed the cap with the car running, I could see the oil misting out of the fill pipe.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by bobpo

I'm leaning toward the amount of oil. I may have too much oil in it. The sock is a loose fitting one. The oil is all over the engine pan below the Oil Breather/Filler Tube and dripping down the pan and onto the floor. I'm going to try to remove some of the oil with a suction pump as there is too much on the dipstick. (above the "FULL" mark).

Hey Bob,
hmm, the ole sock in the filler tube trick! know it well and have been using it for ever. i change sock with oil changes. you are most likely correct in you 'too much' oil assumption. thats what i found also and have kept the oil in my warmed up engine..about qt low. even after rings seated good, i found that qt low on stick is perfect! But, the sock stays! wife keeps asking...how come only one sock to a pair..at times

[roddyb34]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Bob,
hmm, the ole sock in the filler tube trick! know it well and have been using it for ever. i change sock with oil changes. you are most likely correct in you 'too much' oil assumption. thats what i found also and have kept the oil in my warmed up engine..about qt low. even after rings seated good, i found that qt low on stick is perfect! But, the sock stays! wife keeps asking...how come only one sock to a pair..at times

,,,Blame the washing machine for eating them,,,,,

[Christoph]

Hey all

Didnt get that one... If you change socks with oil changes (as said)
your wife might have back the missing one.
To reduce conversations, better switch to use socks of your wife.

I didnt even know "the old sock trick" .
Oil in my Stock-Tudor is allways on "F"
(German phrase of today : "Wer gut schmiert, der gut fährt")
Even so - not much "misting"... (whats wrong?)

[Model A Fan]

I thought you were supposed to have 5 quarts of oil?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Model A Fan

I thought you were supposed to have 5 quarts of oil?

5 quarts after the pan has been removed, and 4 quarts for oil changes.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by bobpo

I'm leaning toward the amount of oil. I may have too much oil in it. The sock is a loose fitting one. The oil is all over the engine pan below the Oil Breather/Filler Tube and dripping down the pan and onto the floor. I'm going to try to remove some of the oil with a suction pump as there is too much on the dipstick. (above the "FULL" mark).

I believe you have found the problem. I find that any oil over the full mark will cause problems like this and leaks at the rear main. All my engines that go out with oil only get enough to measure halfway between the F and L marks. Keep it at this level to minimize problems.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

5 quarts after the pan has been removed, and 4 quarts for oil changes.

Tom, I really think this is bad advise. I am a firm believer that oil should be checked after putting in 3 quarts and after subsequent every quart. Even then, the engine should be run and left sitting for 10 minutes , then check the oil to insure the proper level. This will minimize the possibility of overfilling the crankcase. Besides, there is possibly 1/2 quart in the valve chamber even after removing the pan.

[Ray64]

Maybe he is having blowby?

[RcT]

Just mentioned the other day, was the proper oil level... it should be to the bottom of the "F" on the dipstick. You haven't mentioned where yours is in relation to the "F" mark. Another question: are you running an oil filter?

[bobpo]

Well I checked and sure enough, the oil level on the Dipstick and it shows the oil to be above the FULL MARK. (by at least 1/8th inch). I'm thinking here that maybe the Little Dipstick was being checked by the Big Dipschtick.........And No, I din't have an Oil Filter.

As the "Katzenjammer Kids" used to say;

"DER SCHMARTZ I AIN'T, DER LERNINK I YAM"

Once again, the professors at "U of F" (University of Fordbarn) are to be given an A+

[bogdonj]

after doing an oil change mine sits below the F mark and I never seem to have issues with oil! Like james rogers said "All my engines that go out with oil only get enough to measure halfway between the F and L marks. Keep it at this level to minimize problems. "

[Dave / Franklin MA]

i agree you might want to try lowering the oil level. Also, check for seepage around the base of the oil fill pipe. It's only a press fit and if that pipe is loose at all, oil can get blown out thru that crack and it's hard to tell that it's not coming from the top.

[bobpo]

Thanks, I will check the fit of the fill tube also. I think it's tight.

[Patrick L.]

I'm kinda thinking like Ray.. Where is the leak ?? Does it appear to be the rear of the engine/bellhousing or under the rear of the engine to frame side pan ?? If its under the side pan then maybe its crankcase pressure/blow-by.. Is there any oil between your sock ,block and side pan ??

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by bobpo

Well I checked and sure enough, the oil level on the Dipstick and it shows the oil to be above the FULL MARK. (by at least 1/8th inch). I'm thinking here that maybe the Little Dipstick was being checked by the Big Dipschtick.........And No, I din't have an Oil Filter.

As the "Katzenjammer Kids" used to say;

"DER SCHMARTZ I AIN'T, DER LERNINK I YAM"

Once again, the professors at "U of F" (University of Fordbarn) are to be given an A+

bob, good to laugh in the morning..(big dipschitick) your funny !
and , it would be nice if all 'a' problems could be solved so easily.

[Model A Fan]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

5 quarts after the pan has been removed, and 4 quarts for oil changes.

So, I empty the thing out I need 5 quarts after pulling the pan and redoing the gaskets and only 4 if I am just changing the oil, nothing else? Per my thread on engine tear down, I will need 5 I assume. Sorry, noob here.

Why a sock? What does a sock do?

[Patrick L.]

There has been a lot of talk about oil level, I agree.. I also believe that not all dip sticks are equal.. Over the years many have been replaced and possibly with ones that are not the correct length.. When the base/oil pan is ever removed then the stick can be marked to the correct level once the oil is added and engine run for a minute or so.. If not removing the pan then Maybe the level mark can be checked and marked right after an oil change.

[Bob/Kansas City]

Originally Posted by Christoph

Hey all


(German phrase of today : "Wer gut schmiert, der gut fährt")
Even so - not much "misting"... (whats wrong?)

If you grease well, You drive well!

Except when you "grease" too well!

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Model A Fan

... What does a sock do?

Depends on where you put it !

[James Rogers]

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Originally Posted by Model A Fan

So, I empty the thing out I need 5 quarts after pulling the pan and redoing the gaskets and only 4 if I am just changing the oil, nothing else? Per my thread on engine tear down, I will need 5 I assume. Sorry, noob here.

Why a sock? What does a sock do?

Never assume! Just put enough in to be between the F and L.

[bobpo]

Well, here's what I did today. Sorry if I seem a little long on wind, but I sure am one happy camper as a result of you Barners.

I drained and re-claimed my oil since I had just recently changed it for my 500 mile Break-In. I noted that I actually drained about 4 1/2 quarts of Oil...???? No wonder it was blowing out the breather cap. It was all dripping down onto a metal plate I had placed under the engine compartment last night after we returned from our drive. This morning I had about an 8" diameter puddle of oil. It was coming off the Driver's Side Engine Pan. The breather tube is tightly sealed.

In response to Model A Fan, the "dark" sock is used to cover the breather cap when you put too much oil in the engine like I did. The Oil that blows out the breather is soaked up by the sock. Mine was totally saturated.

Also the little woman has been wondering why one of my socks disappears from time to time. I tell her that it must be the washer. I did a numbers crunch and found that it's cheaper to buy a new washer than a new wife, especially after 50 years.

And for HardTimes, you're right, this was an easy one. But I have to tell ya, it has bugged me all summer as to why I have so much oil dripping under the car after a longer drive.

[jcheshire31]

Mine has been about 1/8in above the full mark for about the past 1000 miles since I last filled it up. I have an oil breather and oil filter on it too. It leaks about a quarter size puddle out of the rear main and front of the engine everytime I park it. But i've never had a problem with it backing up through the breather. And like I said, it's been above full for the past 1000 miles.

[hardtimes]

'bugged me all summer'...well, shoot you should have spoke up sooner !

model a man...back about six years ago, i had this b engine 'improved' substantially.
as an engine takes time to run in/seat...and some more time than others...mine fit into the longer time catagory. now you may find this hard to believe, but it does not leak/burn a drop of oil! but while the rings were seating, 'blow by' pressure sent oil up and out my filler tube. as i hate oil leaks..i pondered what to do. i knew that the rings would seat in time, but that that was only part of the equation. I checked the 'dip stick' and it was correct for the job. but i noticed that i kept the oil topped off at all times. I lowered the oil level to half way down between full and the bottom of the stick...that solved my oil ..out the filler tube problem. i further reasoned that i didn't want the possibility of ANY oil vapor out the tube. that's when i loosely stuffed a cotten sock into the top of tube (actually..about one third of a sock). finally, k&n makes a perfect fitting filter that fits over the end of the oil tube. I clamped it onto the tube with a stainless water hose clamp....and besides allowing good breathing, it looks great !
btw...you can see it (k&n) in my avatar

[bobpo]

NEWS FLASH
Well I took Ms. Tillie to the local "Hi and Lie" Coffee Shoppe (MacDonalds) this morning which is about 9 miles one way. (that's where all the ol' timers come in to say "HI" and then "LIE" for the next hour or so). All country driving. Upon returning home I found that I (again) had oil running down the Breather Tube. That's with the oil level half way between 'L' and 'F'.

So, do you think I need to lower the Oil Level even more? There's no doubt that the oil is coming out the top of the tube. There's no oil coming out the base of the tube. It's even oozing out the little tabs on the breather cap.....?

[Patrick L.]

Well, if the oil level is low enough then it kinda sounds like blow-by.. Have you taken a compression or leakage test lately ?? How fast do you usually drive ?? My old 1961 engine is fine in the 40-45 mph range, if I push it much more than that it'll throw oil out the breather/fill tube.. Compression is 45#..

[Milton]

Originally Posted by bobpo

So, do you think I need to lower the Oil Level even more? There's no doubt that the oil is coming out the top of the tube.

NO! Leave the oil where it is.Take the sock off of the oil tube. Get a piece of air cleaner foam, roll it up loosely and stick it inside the oil cap sleeve. This way any oil collected will dribble down the inside of the oil tube. In your previous post you indicated that this engine is in the break-in process. This being the case I believe you are experiencing blow-by past the rings which are not thoroughly seated. I have the same situation with my engine that is at approximately 500 miles. The oil is in suspension and the slight amount of blow-by is pushing the oil mist out of the breather.

[Benson]

Bobpo,

I do not remember if your engine is fresh rebuild or not but ....

Note: if rear main is leaking also now I would try removing the sock after you try the non detergent oil ... restricting the air flow out of breather can force oil out the rear main.

This is from a Guy in town here who fought blowby for 3000 miles or more back in 2007.

I saved it from old Ford Barn ... I would try non-detergent oil for 500 miles like Greg did.

Note that he used detergent oil for break-in and rings never sealed!


Quote:

Posted by Greg Jones in Colorado from 71-215-87-21.hlrn.qwest.net (71.215.87.21) on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 at 8:25PM :

This past summer, about 3500 miles ago, I installed a freshly rebuilt inserted engine in my 31 Roadster. Has a Snyder's head on it.

I used Valvoline 5W-30 for break in (first 500 miles), then changed to 10W-30.
Both of these are Detergent oils.

Lately I have been chasing symptoms with it not running "just right" and after a compression check showed low pressure I pulled the head to have a look. (Also getting blowby out the filler pipe after about 3000 miles). What I found is cylinder walls with the honing hatch marks looking like they did when I installed the engine, and burnt oil on the top of the pistons. Rings didn't seal.

I think my first mistake was the oil used during break-in. I reasoned, like I do all too often for my own good, that with this tighter engine and the inserts the thinner multigrade oil made sense to help ensure lubrication to those tight places.

On the advice of another Model A expert, I drained the multi-weight and bought the cheapest NAPA 30W non-detergent they had and have now run it for about 500 miles.

Compression increased from 60# to 85# even on all four. Car is starting to get that snappy "snarl" back to it.

All this brings me to my question: Is it possible after 3500 miles that I am now adequately breaking in the rings, or do any of you anticipate any future problems? I was certain I would have to just re-ring the old girl, not that that would be the end of the world, but why do it if it is not necessary. I have a pretty good amount of experience breaking in rebuilt engines and generally, I use the more aggressive procedure as opposed to the babying approach. Never had a bit of trouble but I do admit the only thing I did different was use the multi-weight oil rather than 30W straight. So what say ye, have I learned something here?

UnQuote

[bobpo]

Well Benson, Ol' Buddy, I think I might just try that Non-Detergent Stuff. After all, Why Not....????

And, I usuallly drive out here in the country about 35-45 mph. I'll try the foam bit in the cap.

P.S. I made a License Plate that reads; 0-60 mph
15 minutes

[Milton]

I am currently running 30w but it is detergent, so keep me posted on the outcome, as it just doesn't seem wise to argue with Mr. Benson.

[bobpo]

I will keep you posted as to the eventual outcome. And I forgot to mention that this engine was professionally rebuilt in 1984. However, it was never started until I got it in mid 2009. The guys restoring it passed away over the years and then it sat for another 10 years or so. I bought it mostly in pieces and completed the restoration in about 1-1/2 years. (first time I ever owned a Model A) I had it running two weeks after I bought it.

It had never been on the road prior to me owning it as the little nibs on the tire treads were still 1/2" long. The tires were Sears Allstate brand, but the sidewalls were dry rotted badly. I think they were purchased in the early 80's.

To date, I have probably put 700-900 miles. The odometer didn't work for a while.

[bobpo]

I didn't notice any oil on the floor after a drive today, so i'm sure i had over-filled the oil.

I also however have noticed a thick oil on the floor at the rear of the engine/transmission area and i'm thinking that this could be the result of the car having sat so long after the rebuild and possible the seals got hard. I'm going give it some milea and time to see if they will soften up with use.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by bobpo

I didn't notice any oil on the floor after a drive today, so i'm sure i had over-filled the oil.

I also however have noticed a thick oil on the floor at the rear of the engine/transmission area and i'm thinking that this could be the result of the car having sat so long after the rebuild and possible the seals got hard. I'm going give it some milea and time to see if they will soften up with use.

What seals?

[billwill]

Make you Have dip stick goodluk

[Milton]

So is this where the famous 1950s phase, "It runs a quart low" came from?

[bobpo]

What Seals? You mean there ain't no seals in the tranny......? Now what? I told you I was new to this Model A thing....

[Benson]

Originally Posted by bobpo

What Seals? You mean there ain't no seals in the tranny......? Now what? I told you I was new to this Model A thing....

There are no seals unless someone installed "sealed" main bearings and they only slow down the leaks.

There are some "kits" that seal the main shaft and reverse idler shaft ends from leaking at rear of transmission ... that Vendors carry.

Try cleaning out the vent hole in transmission tower!

If pressure builds up it can force oil out of the transmission.

Use dental pick type tool and a vacuum cleaner (take your time) to keep the dirt from falling into the transmission.

Hole is about 3/32ths ...

You might have to remove floorboard to find the hole ... I do not remember the exact location.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by Milton

I am currently running 30w but it is detergent, so keep me posted on the outcome, as it just doesn't seem wise to argue with Mr. Benson.

Milton,

Sorry for confusion ... I should have explained my Avatar ....

It is just my warped sense of humor!!

"Warp Factor nine " ... Mr Scott !

See below.

[Old182]

Good info! If you don't want to blame the missing sock on the washing machine, you can drill a few holes in the red cap from a WD40 can as shown in the pic (I hope it came through). This one's been on my coupe for over 20 years and does the job quite well.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by Benson

About the Avatar!

"Who had the Bean Burrito?"

Now that makes sense and clears everything up, except the air.