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10-03-2019, 10:07 AM | #1 |
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Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I would like to put a small block Ford V8 (Y-Block?) into my '52 Customline with a 3 speed manual transmission and overdrive. (Just because the OD is unique). The manual transmissions from '49 to '54 seem to use the same nose piece (#7050) and the same transmission case (#7006). This would take it into Y-Block territory.
Is the bolt pattern for all Y-Blocks to the bellhousing the same? Is the bolt pattern for all Y-Block bellhousings to the transmission the same? I have seen a reference to a "Wilcap 600WA Ford Y-Block 2 Ford Flathead Transmission Bellhousing Adapter" (no longer on the Wilcap website). Is this actually necessary for what I am trying to do?
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10-03-2019, 10:30 AM | #2 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
It is my understanding that Wilcap has more than is listed on there site, might give them a call.
"We offer more than 70 different adapters and we have several hundred different engines and transmissions in our CAD library. If you can't find what your looking for on the pages listed below, call us." |
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10-03-2019, 10:39 AM | #3 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
It appears that the Wilcap 600WA adapts the early flathead transmission to the Y-block
https://picclick.com/Wilcap-600-WA-F...750850030.html I believe all the ford car transmissions were the same bolt pattern to the bell housing up to 1964, I think. Some pickup bell housings had motor mounts cast into them. Heavy truck might have had different transmission bolt patterns, I don't know. |
10-03-2019, 10:56 AM | #4 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
The "Y" block is substantially heaver than the flathead. The early :Y" blocks had 239/272 ci whick will make the front end of the car more difficult to steer and handle poorly. 54 springs might help. They may fit??PS will also help??
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10-03-2019, 11:25 AM | #5 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I had a '54 and '55 Ford years ago and they handled as good as any car of that era. Both of those cars had "Y" blocks. People used to put Olds engines in old Fords. Talk about heavy!
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10-03-2019, 12:13 PM | #6 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
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239 yblock up to 312 have the same bell housing pattern. You need to get passanger car stuff like the timing cover oil pan motor mount flywheel (for the small clutch) Passanger car bellhousing. Truck is deeper Your stock clutch linkage should work The flathead mounts are completely different from y block. |
10-03-2019, 12:29 PM | #7 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
skidmarks,
'54 was the first year for ball joints. |
10-03-2019, 12:40 PM | #8 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
If it were me I would drop in a 51-53 Merc flathead. It give you more power than the Ford engine and save you a lot of trouble.
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10-03-2019, 02:16 PM | #9 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
With the change to ball joint front suspension in '54, I seem to remember that there was enough change to the car that there may be some oil pan interference and it wasn't a very happy swap. A "Y"-block is not a "small block Ford"; that is is the 289-302 series. They are smaller lighter, more powerful, and fit better. The money you will save by not having to buy a transmission adapter will quickly go for buying engine parts. Then if for some reason you want to add some "go fast" parts, you'll really be under water.
In this day and age, a "Y" block swap is not a good idea. However, if you have some nostalgic, "back in the day" reason for doing it, go ahead! |
10-03-2019, 03:41 PM | #10 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Y blocks into '49-'53 Fords weren't uncommon back when.
That said, any Y block less than 292 cubes is a wasted effort. I know people will say otherwise, but anything less than a 292 is a boat anchor. If your Y block '54-'59 (car not truck) has a stick bell housing, clutch & flywheel, it will bolt up to your '52 trans. Make sure the disc matches. With the stock front sump Y block pan the guys used to cut a large opening into the '52 front cross member & fab side motor mounts. I know it's crude but it was done & it worked. The better way is to use the truck or T Bird rear sump pan along with the oil up pick tube. It is cleaner but you still have to fuss with the cross member. Last edited by 42merc; 10-03-2019 at 03:51 PM. |
10-03-2019, 04:49 PM | #11 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
"I would like to put a small block Ford V8 (Y-Block?)"
I wouldn't exactly call a Y-Block V8 a small block. Probably as heavy as an FE V8. Small displacement maybe, but small block ? Sal |
10-03-2019, 04:56 PM | #12 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
not all the 49 and up transmissions are interchangeable. rear motor mounts, clutch linkage attachments were distinct to 49 - 51 & were different for various years and internals (gear sets) changed in 53 i believe.....
that Wilcap 600 WA Ford Y-Block 2 Ford Flathead Transmission Bellhousing Adapter is for Yblock to 48 and earlier transmissions.. |
10-03-2019, 05:39 PM | #13 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I guess I'm out of touch but I see no advantage of installing a Y block in your car.
Working on a Y-Block in the car can be a tedious task. Especially if you have to remove and replace the hex drive distributor. Do they have solid lifters? Not a user friendly engine. Last edited by 19Fordy; 10-04-2019 at 10:10 AM. |
10-03-2019, 05:59 PM | #14 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
So what is the state of your current Motor?
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10-03-2019, 06:22 PM | #15 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
>>>I would like to put a small block Ford V8 (Y-Block?) into my '52 Customline with a 3 speed manual transmission and overdrive.>>>
Sorry. Your car was designed for only one SB OHV V8. And it isn't a SBF. Jack E/NJ |
10-03-2019, 06:53 PM | #16 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Just looked up some weights (no idea how consistent they are). The y-block engines are listed as 610lbs.
SBF (260-302) 460lbs FE (332-428) 625lbs 385 (429-460) 720lbs And per Rumbleseat, "1934 through 1948 V-B 85/90/100 hp flathead engines weigh 525 lbs (with cast iron heads)" No idea if the 8ba is heaver. Last edited by JSeery; 10-03-2019 at 07:01 PM. |
10-03-2019, 07:21 PM | #17 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
The Y blocks were the worst engines ever produced by Ford. Go to 302 family or back to a flathead. IMHO.
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10-03-2019, 07:38 PM | #18 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
A lot of people would not agree to that statement. The 56 and 57 Fords were top winners in oval track racing and a number of them did good in 1/4 mile racing.
If treated right (as with any other engine) they were long lasting engines with plenty of torque.
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10-03-2019, 08:35 PM | #19 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
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10-03-2019, 08:52 PM | #20 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I put a 292 in a 1950 car. Oil filter was where the steering gear is. Had to make a bipass plate. Also had to use a top shift adapter. This was in 1960. All poorboy, homemade stuff. Ran strong.
Bruce
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10-03-2019, 10:54 PM | #21 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Skip the 1 year y-block, lot of one off stuff. At least get the 272. 292 is great. But they are all 312s, it just depends on whom is selling. Yblocks are heavy (think the "average" is about 200 pounds on the 292 motor side vs flathead), but lot's of torque.
Don't forget about the 223 straight 6. First yr 53 (215, same deal, one off). Not a power house (about the same hp as a stock Flathead in 53) but pretty much bulletproof and cheap. Best of luck! . Last edited by Tinker; 10-04-2019 at 12:01 AM. Reason: spelling and punctuation. |
10-04-2019, 07:21 AM | #22 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Here's a video of Iron trap garage putting a "Y" block into a 39 Ford.
https://youtu.be/Wx0dBPs8U0I |
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10-04-2019, 08:53 AM | #23 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Transmissions changed in 1951. The later transmissions have better gears than the earlier ones. To me, the Y-block engines belong in Y-block cars. Flatheads belong in flathead cars but that is my own person feeling on the subject.
Changing a powerplant for a more modern type requires substantial work and some yankee engineering. I'd want the best motor for the buck spent and that leads to the small block Ford in my book. A 351W would be a good choice for a heavy car. |
10-04-2019, 09:10 AM | #24 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
A friend is putting a y block in his 38 ford, here’s a shot with the body off.
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10-04-2019, 09:11 AM | #25 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
To reiterate, even though it's not the easiest choice, I was hoping to pair an OHV V8 with the original drive train due to the uniqueness of the manual 3 speed with overdrive. Something that I could hang an A/C compressor on, too? I would like to adapt a modern air filter cartridge to the oil bath air cleaner to keep close to the original look as well. Even though I might have an FiTech FI unit under it. I think there's motor mounts for almost anything but the issue is the driveline connection. A 302 would be nice but I don't know of any adapters available. The Y-Block seems to be the only thing close to working out.
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10-04-2019, 11:22 AM | #26 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
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10-04-2019, 12:29 PM | #27 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
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10-04-2019, 12:50 PM | #28 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
In my opinion, dealing with the oddities and shortcomings of these old cars is part of the fun of driving them.
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10-04-2019, 02:15 PM | #29 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
You would be hard pressed to name a worse Ford engine. Y blocks didn't breathe, hard on parts, especially bearings and lacked oil to the rockers. The FE motor in '58 was a big improvement. They couldn't compete on the drag strip at all. The SBC ate it for lunch all around.
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10-04-2019, 04:37 PM | #30 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
42Merc - shame this forum doesn't have "like" buttons - you'd have got one. You would think hotrodders would be more supportive of someone trying to put together a specific concept. The 292's are pretty good engines and they have a firing order that gives a great sound. How cool is it to have that "OVERDRIVE" handle under the dash! Modern oils pretty much cure that top end oiling problem.
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10-04-2019, 05:09 PM | #31 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Going back in history, the development of the big cubic engines started in 49 with the 303 Olds and the 331 caddy. This was at a time when the 286 Flatty was about as far as you could go, without getting into allot of money. By the time you installed a cam and a few carbs, you'd have over 500 bucks into the car. Now along cam the 303 Olds and you could buy them for a coupla hundred bucks. Just made an adapter kit for a hundred bucks. And you could have a tire smoking street machine for allot less. Unfortunately, this brought about a few other problems, like blown trans and broken axles. It didn't take long before thay went the way of the old flathead. I ,even had a 392 Hemi in a 47 Plymouth. Besides all these broken parts, the handling qualities, and Brakes of the car mad them dangerous to drive. What was worse, they kept making them bigger.
Thus started the small block Chevy revolution. Hard to admit, it not only brought speed back but handling as well. Ford figured that out and produced the 302/351 and I think they weight about the same as a flatty. Now that I said all that my favorite engine is a 258 flathead, It might not be the most powerful engine, but in a light cat, cam, and a few other goodies. It make a very nice street machine. |
10-04-2019, 05:15 PM | #32 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Ron, believe the SBF was lighter than the flathead, something like 460lbs vs 525lbs. So it was even a better deal! The SBF is lighter than the SBC, which is heaver than a flathead, but the SBF was much later in time.
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10-04-2019, 05:40 PM | #33 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
A dressed up Y block has a lot more eye appeal then a 302
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10-04-2019, 06:35 PM | #34 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
DougE, the oiling problems with upper end oiling was more than just with the quality of oil. there were inherent Y block design issues that caused rocker arm shafts to suffer from lack of oil volume...... i have a 53 Vickie with a small block chev in it that was in front of the stock 3 speed with OD. i can help you with clutch issues if you wish to choose that route instead of the Y block. adapters are readily available for the chev to ford trans, and exhaust manifolds are simple. you will need a dropped tie rod to clear the pan........
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10-04-2019, 07:00 PM | #35 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
While the early 239's and 256's had some strange issues with oiling the top end, the later Y-blocks did not... provided the oil passages to the rockers were clean and the oil was changed regularly. At least none of mine ever did. See the Y-block Guy's videos on youtube and do some of your own research on the issue. There's lots of "haters" out there...
As far as Y-blocks "not breathing", do a search for what Karol Miller did with his '56 at Bonneville back in the day. |
10-04-2019, 07:32 PM | #36 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Ford made a oil kit for the rockers to help their oiling problem with the Y block. I had a '57 Fairlane with a 292 and my buddy had the 312 in a like car. We both put the kits on our engines. No problems and many miles. (99,000 +) I have seen the kits on Ebay once in a while.
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10-04-2019, 08:25 PM | #37 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
True enough many of us have vast experience ( myself included ) with transplants of Hemis, mouse motors, BBCs, Olds, and Whatever some body else drove into tree. This forum survives on the desire to drive a very unique. and antiquated V8. Seriously ask the H.A.M.B.
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10-05-2019, 09:03 AM | #38 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
A Bones - I am posting identical threads in the H.A.M.B. 1952-59 Ford Social Group and not getting much response.
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10-05-2019, 09:41 AM | #39 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I had a 54 Ford Mainliner with a 312 engine. It had the external rocker arm oiler on it but that wasn't enough since it suffered from low oil pressure too. I somewhat solved the rocker arm issue by pulling the rocker covers off monthly and pouring 90W gear oil on them to stop the squeaking. Later replaced that motor with a 59 Ford Police car engine, a 352.
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10-05-2019, 10:04 AM | #40 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Y-blocks evolved to be a decent engine but they were never a powerhouse engine. When they finally started to improve things in 1957 for T-birds and for racing programs, they actually got them into a respectable catagory. Some racers modified them further with good results. They are kind of an odd design with respect to fit up and function. The exhaust systems for the regular models were really funky.
A lot of the small block Ford bell housings have both the wide pattern bolt up and the narrow pattern bolt up for the old Ford-Borg/Warner design transmissions. The early 5-bolt bell housings for the small blocks all had the narrow pattern for the early T10 4-speed that would work with an old R10 or maybe an R11 overdrive. The early 1966 6-bolt bell housing had this pattern too but they are harder to find. I would prefer the T85 transmission with the R11 overdrive for performance. It's a lot stronger than the old R10 set up. I still see floor shifters for them now and then. |
10-05-2019, 01:05 PM | #41 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Believe it or not, Ford actually made an adapter to do this for trucks. They also made a kit to convert from the flat-6's to the OHV 6's. The parts lists for the kits runs to 2 pages...
Never seen one of these adapters myself.
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10-05-2019, 01:10 PM | #42 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
We did have a 54 F600 that was.converted from a 6 wheeler to a 10 wheeler full screw |
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10-05-2019, 01:41 PM | #43 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
The 312 wasn't any better. It was the worst of the bunch. The 292 was lousy but probably the best Y block. The 57 312 introduced the Holley spread bore carburetor which was a milestone but a terrible overall engine. The engine code was ECZ. I know, I had several back in the day.
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10-05-2019, 04:28 PM | #44 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
In the late 50's I built a 345ci "Y" block for the drags for a fellow. The engine had a C&T stroker assy with floating bearings. The roda were bored out to except them. Yes it was a welded crank. Clay smith hard faced cam and Hilbore Fuel injectors. I'd never run anything like this before and my stupid factor was very hi. Took awhile to get the tuning figgered out. The flame thrower ign gave us problems as the rotors would short out. solved this with stock coils. Engine was bolted uo to a cad.LaSal trand and 4.10 rear, Altho we never got it to a drag strip. It's the only vehicle I ever drove that could spin the tires while cruising at 60 mPH. The acceleration was more thar the Hemi 66 Dodge I ran
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10-05-2019, 04:30 PM | #45 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
As well, I have in my growing years committed conversions that just ate up time energy, and cash I regretted later. Good Luck I understand the aspect of having that look when the hood goes up. (seldom mentioned fact: Ed 'Big Daddy' Roth had a '55 Chevy with a 406 just for fun)
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10-05-2019, 07:57 PM | #46 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
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10-05-2019, 08:03 PM | #47 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Most adapters for these transmissions show them fitting '49-'64. "rotorwrench" has posted some good information on the previous page.
Last edited by tubman; 10-05-2019 at 08:46 PM. |
10-05-2019, 11:33 PM | #48 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
looks like a pretty complete kit. It even includes the engine!
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10-07-2019, 01:11 PM | #49 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
A Ford Y block beat out two small block Chevys a Pontiac and a Studebaker V8 at last weeks Engine Masters Competition. It finished behind a 390 and 289 Ford and a couple big block Chevys with the latter two only beating it by a little. Remember this year the engines were required to run factory block and head castings. Ford Y blocks have won this competition twice. No early Olds, Caddy, Buick or small block Chevy has accomplished that feat yet. |
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10-07-2019, 02:11 PM | #50 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I always liked "Y"-blocks, especially the intake ports.
I always thought the 312's were the best of the bunch, too. |
10-07-2019, 03:49 PM | #51 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
Interestingly, the '57 312 also used Carter AFB and Ford/Autolite 4100 carbs. It was the first year for these carbs too. |
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10-07-2019, 08:16 PM | #52 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
I realized the valve seat (width of the valve) is in line with the wide dimension of the port. Thinking about it even further if you had two situations where you were pouring water over a ledge which way is better? In the case of the conventional vertical port the “fluid” is pinched in the minor width of the port then has to flare out to be able to flow around the valve. In the second case the horizontal port in the Y block has the major intake port dimension in line or parallel to the entire periphery of the intake valve. The “fluid” column is NOT pinched and therefore it’s my opinion that at least theoretically this is a superior configuration. Look at a modern 4 valve engine and tell me what you see looking down the intake port. Answer: generally you’ll see a horizontal and “in line” major port dimension. Maybe just maybe the Y block is the only common 50’s engine that got it right. |
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10-08-2019, 07:43 AM | #53 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
like it or not the small block chevy is the best choice . light small ez to install & you can buy a eng much cheaper than any other eng. ps they don,t over heat
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10-08-2019, 08:15 AM | #54 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Plus, used adapters are everywhere. I paid $10 for the last one I bought.
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10-08-2019, 09:36 AM | #55 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I've already said at least twice I'm keeping it all Ford. Suggesting some other brand is just a waste of space. Anyone else checking out this thread to find out the options for doing what I'm trying to do now has to wade through a bunch of non-useful information.
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10-08-2019, 01:47 PM | #56 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
A friend of mine is installing a Y-block in a 1940 Merc convertible street rod. He is planning to cut a pretty wide diagonal trough in the dash panel (aka firewall) for distributor clearance. Not sure if you would have the same issue with the '52 body.
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10-08-2019, 02:07 PM | #57 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Re top end oiling on the Y blocks. My T bird had no oil to the rockers on one side. The problem was worn cam bearings. New cam bearings were fitted and the oil problem was solved.
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10-08-2019, 02:08 PM | #58 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Might want to check out Tim's page
http://yblockguy.com/ If you want to watch videos https://www.youtube.com/user/mctim64 Sorry this does not help your question on installing a yblock, but some yblock info. . |
10-08-2019, 06:14 PM | #59 | |
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Location: Pittsford NY. USA
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
The sbc is a terrific engine , but it has its places . Those are in GM products . The best way to ruin a Ford is to put a Chevy engine in it . Works every time ! LOL |
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10-08-2019, 06:26 PM | #60 |
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Location: Coral Springs FL
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Richard makes a good point. I recall in 1961 I had a 40 Ford with a 265 SBC and it ran great with zero problems. Didn't ruin the car at all. Just think of all the old Fords that were "ruined" with 331 Hemis, Olds Rocket 88's and Cadillac engines.
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10-08-2019, 07:39 PM | #61 | |
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Location: MN
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Quote:
Had a chance of buying a running Olds Rocket 88 10yrs ago for $300. I didn't. Also had a nice 61 caddy 390 that I sold and the guy let it rot outside. Regret both decisions. Couple google searches for you on the yblock install. If anyone on earth has put a yblock in a 52 ford (and are on the web) they will be on the hamb or here, not a lot of luck here on what you want. Join there and ask also. I have not done this personally so... see post 7. tuck. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...0-ford.693307/ https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/5...k-into-f1.html I can search for more if you like. But sometimes you need to do the legwork. I would think a yblock in a 52 sedan would be fairly natural conversion. DougE sorry if I can do more let me know. . Last edited by Tinker; 10-08-2019 at 10:59 PM. |
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10-08-2019, 09:41 PM | #62 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Here’s a couple pics I pulled off Facebook today. Yes I see the recess in the ‘36 firewall but the ‘39 firewall is unaltered.
I’ve seen plenty of ‘35-‘36’s with sbc’s and recessed firewalls too. Hope these will inspire you. Genuine Ford power! Yes a 265 scrub engine ruins an old Ford. It’s a bastard car at that point. |
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10-08-2019, 10:44 PM | #63 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
Well I wasn't going to say anything for fear of recrimination, but this story has run along for more than 60 posts (which shows the interest here) but we are more about original and restored flathead ford V8s with only minimal modifications. So I am thinking we should be sticking to just that. Plenty of hot rod and custom car forums around for buggered up cars. There, now you can whack me if you like. Regards, Kevin.
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10-09-2019, 12:32 PM | #64 | |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
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Myself am guilty of objecting to this thread. Now though I am able to understand that the whole team here ( including most of our Heavy Hitters ) is supportive in sharing info to the situation. I feel prompted again to apologize and also to say THANK YOU! to all the team for being present. Thank You, for making EarlyV8 Fordbarn the gem that it is
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10-09-2019, 04:14 PM | #65 |
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: New Braunfels, Tx
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
I'm the OP. You guys are definitely into flatheads as the forum is for '32 to '53 V8's, stopping just short of the Y-Block. My apologies for being, in my ignorance, outside the lines as it were. I do appreciate the interest that caused this thread to exceed 60 posts though!
It appears the simple answer would be to find a 292 CID Y-Block with the manual trans bellhousing attached.
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10-09-2019, 08:42 PM | #66 |
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Re: Replace Flathead with Y-Block?
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Glad, really glad, that answers were given. Good Luck sourcing the parts you need. #28 said well the sentiments of being different. Your plan won't take your car away from the era of its existence. Personally I did not realize Y-blocks ( other than Paxton equipped T-Birds ) were performers. I'm wiser now. The quote below leaves open what the action of "dealing with" involves. There ain't nothing like driving the machine that you created. Please keep us posted!
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