Afraid I opened a can of worms

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

That is not true, Ford, like ALL the engine manufactures, used brass.


You NEVER put steel, against steel, especially like the cheap tempered steel shims that Ford used for replacement service, in the 40's.


Herm.

REALLY??????? I think you need more research.

[ryanheacox]

Magoo2,

I had the same problem last year. Found some babbit in the drain plug during an oil change. Dropped the pan and found a bunch more. Found the #4 rod to be the worst (picture attached) and the rest weren't great, #2 was cracked pretty good.

No idea how many miles are actually on my engine but it has steel shims so I'm guessing old rebuild? Also, I always heard steel shims were better.

Anyway, everyone I talked to gave the same answer. If it sounds okay just run it. That would be my advice to you as well.

[Growley bear]

Over the years I have had the good fortune of talking to mechanics who rebuilt or adjusted unmolested Model A engines. They all talk about steel shims and that brass is cheap/soft. Check the Ford Garage, Vince has a very good write up on main/rod shims.
Let us not forget that Henry didn't go cheap. Cheap brass shims vs milled steel? From a man who spent almost 1/2 billion dollars designing a V8 engine block with the cylinders cast in one unit?

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

Over the years I have had the good fortune of talking to mechanics who rebuilt or adjusted unmolested Model A engines. They all talk about steel shims and that brass is cheap/soft. Check the Ford Garage, Vince has a very good write up on main/rod shims.
Let us not forget that Henry didn't go cheap. Cheap brass shims vs milled steel? From a man who spent almost 1/2 billion dollars designing a V8 engine block with the cylinders cast in one unit?

You are refering to Kronke Rebabbiting (A highly skilled and well regarded babbiting service) who has rebuilt many,many original unmolested Model A engines and in doing that work he has always found that Ford originally used brass shims but then in later years Ford used steel shims on their rebuilds, probably meaning the Ford dealers that offered that service.

[Growley bear]

I am referring to people who were the first to remove the pan/rod caps since the car/engine rolled off the assembly line. They found steel and this was before WWll.

[Growley bear]

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Looks like I'll be eating CROW for breakfast this morning.
I stand corrected. According to the "Model A Ford Construction, Operation and Repair" for the restorer by Victor Page; Information on pages 242-249 as taken from FORD MOTOR COMPANY in their book of instructions states on page 243-244 adding or removing "BRASS LINERS" as Ford called them. The same process is used with fitting connecting rods.
This being from the manufacturer is not a point that I care to argue.
It was/is not my intention to impune the expertise/knowledge of anyone. Just trying to obtain the most accurate information. Which I now believe I have done.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

Looks like I'll be eating CROW for breakfast this morning.
I stand corrected. According to the "Model A Ford Construction, Operation and Repair" for the restorer by Victor Page; Information on pages 242-249 as taken from FORD MOTOR COMPANY in their book of instructions states on page 243-244 adding or removing "BRASS LINERS" as Ford called them. The same process is used with fitting connecting rods.
This being from the manufacturer is not a point that I care to argue.
It was/is not my intention to impune the expertise/knowledge of anyone. Just trying to obtain the most accurate information. Which I now believe I have done.

Thank you, Mr. Growley.


The Guy you referred to in your post, found a set of Model A shims, made with steel in a Ford Garage one time and came to his own conclusion that is what Ford used in his Motors.


That would be like finding a NOS 18 " tire in an old Ford Garage, and conclude that all Model A's used 18" tires.


About 2 months ago, the same kind of subject came up on the Model T form. The subject was, Ford did not use shims in his rods, and mains. They said the line didn't have time to mess with shims, they just run the motors in after they were built.


So, how did they come to a conclusion like that. Well, one guy had a Ford drawing for a Model T Rod, and two call themselves engine builders, and it did NOT show the shim in the rod drawing L.O.L., so there conclusion was, Model T's did not have main, or rod shims.


Ford made drawings for every part of his cars. The reason the Brass shims were not on the Rod drawing is the shims have there own drawings, and there own part Number. DA. But, they insist not, and there are about ten of them, stick together, right, or wrong.


Brass is not the cheap metal, it is the steel, that is. Price some, some time A 8X24, my cost is about 275.00 We have always used aircraft quality Brass. McMaster-Carr has sheets, the same size, around, 50.00, but is not the same stuff we use, but it will work fine. The only thing now, that kind of brass is glued together, and has to be flamed to get it apart.


Now, for the old wives tale. The biggest reason that many people say the brass is to soft, and when tightened, makes a crease, or groove, is a person that don't know, telling other people.


The reason for the crease, or groove in a shim is because, the Guy that is using them don't know how the make two part lines perfectly straight.


Brass will not mark, if the job is done right, and brass will not compress, or mark as long as the meat in your sandwich has two flat pieces of Bread.


And thank you for your kind Post, Mr. M, who ever you are.


Herm.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Thank you, Mr. Growley.


The Guy you referred to in your post, found a set of Model A shims, made with steel in a Ford Garage one time and came to his own conclusion that is what Ford used in his Motors.


That would be like finding a NOS 18 " tire in an old Ford Garage, and conclude that all Model A's used 18" tires.


About 2 months ago, the same kind of subject came up on the Model T form. The subject was, Ford did not use shims in his rods, and mains. They said the line didn't have time to mess with shims, they just run the motors in after they were built.


So, how did they come to a conclusion like that. Well, one guy had a Ford drawing for a Model T Rod, and two call themselves engine builders, and it did NOT show the shim in the rod drawing L.O.L., so there conclusion was, Model T's did not have main, or rod shims.


Ford made drawings for every part of his cars. The reason the Brass shims were not on the Rod drawing is the shims have there own drawings, and there own part Number. DA. But, they insist not, and there are about ten of them, stick together, right, or wrong.


Brass is not the cheap metal, it is the steel, that is. Price some, some time A 8X24, my cost is about 275.00 We have always used aircraft quality Brass. McMaster-Carr has sheets, the same size, around, 50.00, but is not the same stuff we use, but it will work fine. The only thing now, that kind of brass is glued together, and has to be flamed to get it apart.


Now, for the old wives tale. The biggest reason that many people say the brass is to soft, and when tightened, makes a crease, or groove, is a person that don't know, telling other people.


The reason for the crease, or groove in a shim is because, the Guy that is using them don't know how the make two part lines perfectly straight.


Brass will not mark, if the job is done right, and brass will not compress, or mark as long as the meat in your sandwich has two flat pieces of Bread.


And thank you for your kind Post, Mr. M, who ever you are.


Herm.

Thank you for the tutorial. I like to think that I am not too old to learn.
And thanks for taking the time to explain something that I thought I had right. Thanks again for your time and patience.
Chet