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Old 07-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #21
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry

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Originally Posted by PRG999 View Post
Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry
Exactly..............Like it or not what Terry said is the truth.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by updraught View Post
If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
Maybe because 'Clara' sounded too 'slow'???

That Dahlinger lady that went after Henry was nothing but a gold digger. I regarded her as a low life from the histories that I read..
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:32 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Henry Ford was a smart man but he had a knack for finding other smart men to make his "minds eye" ideas work. Charlie Sorensen and an author put together a book from the daily diaries that he kept while working for Henry for the 40 years he was there. It has a lot of info from the development of the model T through the model A and eventually, the V8. Charlie didn't design the model A engine either but he knew how to pattern it and cast it so he and a lot of other men put it all together. One of Henry's employees of the Ford aircraft division figured out how to get the 40-horse power out of it when it was not doing so under the original design.

Henry Ford's true genius, if you want to call it that, was as an industrialist with an eye toward complete consumerism. If you make it good and make a lot of them, the price can come down to where it will still be profitable. The more you make, the lower the price. Pay your workers well and they will be driving your new products just as well. You can call it political discussion but what it boils down to is that it would be nearly impossible to replicate what Henry did in this day and age. Too many factors have changed such as labor unions and government regulations about how to build an automobile. Just these two factors alone stifle consumerism. It's not impossible to make a profit building cars these days but just look at the prices and you can see that "every man" may not be able to afford a new Ford.

A 5-main motor will open a new chapter in the history of the model A but we won't know how it works out until folks decide they want to go that route. The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration but it may bring in some unknown reliability factor that attracts customers to it. It certainly wouldn't hurt a thing. A lot of folks just make a hot rod out of the old A anyway if they want to go faster.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-08-2019 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Evening all...For me, Terry's new 5 main engine might just be what gets younger folks to play with Model 'A's. If they run well and are a bit longer lasting and able to have just a bit more power and not leak on the floor...and still sound like Model 'A's...we might have 'A's running for another 90 years...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-14-2019, 06:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?




sex sells.............!
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will this new technology address vibration
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

An inline four of this size would need a balance shaft to be totally smooth. You have to draw the line somewhere or you will end up with a totally different animal. I would be happy with a new B block and only three mains, but I definitely respect Mr. Burtz for stepping up to the plate and trying to make his vision of a better A engine a reality.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
I wish you all the best in this effort. This is a huge undertaking and with a few breaks you could provide a path forward for those of us who want to modernize the Model A without butchering it. Good stuff!
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration.
You have an “original” babbitted Model A that will do 65 mph?

Consider it a unicorn!
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

This is not an update.

Thanks to all for your comments, questions, and encouragement.

I will try to answer a few questions.

Great to hear that the project is back on. Have you considered copying the original engine block with all of the defects, for the Purists in the club?
Regards, Ron


Yes, a goal is to make the purists happy. The cylinder block copied was manufactured after April, 1929 and has the 3 1/4 inch serial number pad and the small bump to add wall thickness when the hole from valve chamber to rear camshaft bearing was added. There were no exterior changes after the bump was added. Purists needing a cylinder block before April 1929 will have to remove the bump possibly shorten the serial number pad, and possibly remove material where the Throttle Control Assembly (A-9725) mounts. By using a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) to create a SolidWorks model from the original cylinder block, all details that are not on the original Ford drawing (A-6015) such as draft, parting line locations, protrusions where water jacket support wires exited the cylinder block, and other details were captured. Steve Plucker has an extremely detailed Cylinder Block Guide that can be found at
http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/engine...%20guide_1.pdf


Will this new technology address vibration?
Daren


Flathead answered your question by stating that a balance shaft is needed to fully eliminate vibration. A more detailed explanation can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com/13-crank...gn-a-6303.html
Second order vibration effects are another problem. Modern inline four cylinder engines incorporate two balance shafts with counterweights turning in opposite directions and at twice engine RPM. These balance shafts cancel a second order vibration caused because the two ascending pistons and two descending pistons do not always have identical opposing acceleration. Remember the connecting rod accelerations calculated earlier at TDC and BDC (+1936 g’s and –1081 g’s). Counterweights reduce crankshaft deflections and stress, but balance shafts do not. Balance shafts reduce loads on items external to the engine and increase passenger comfort. Since balance shafts do not reduce stresses in internal engine components and since there is no physical room for them in a Model A crankcase, they have not been considered in this engineering study.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
I thought of this thread a day or two ago when talking to one of our club members. He hasn't taken poart in many runs lately - he is a pattern maker and they are flat out at work making switching gear for some Chinese railroad. They freely admitted that they don't trust the stuff they have been getting from their own country.
I think that speaks volumes about the country. Todd, if you can keep your work out of China, all the better.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve, Well said!
But the same applies here and I'm sure all over the world so don't feel special
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Bernie will give out free blocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve hackel View Post
My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.

Your experiences mirror mine exactly with trying to have something made in the USA.

When I started this project more than 10 years ago and wanted to keep it in the USA, my quote for foundry tooling was more than $150,000.

The current quote for tooling in China is in the $40,000 range.

My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:43 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Did you see that in Good old Berkeley California you can't call them manhole covers
anymore, their now maintenance hold covers......true story

Dodge
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:27 AM   #40
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.



My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
I'm sure things are just the same over there as here. Decisions on what a company will do are made not by those who know the business but by accountants who know nothing but counting beans!
In my book, accountants have a lot to account for, if you get my drift!
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