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Old 06-17-2019, 11:02 AM   #21
F.M.
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Default Re: Schwalms

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Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
FM, I did warm the cylinders with a propane torch. Now I'm pretty sure it not the cylinders that are binding. It's in the lower parts I think it's the mains The pan is off but nothing is disassembled. The engine is still in the car! I've thought about doing just that! Putting it in the back of the truck and driving it over there! But I cowardly just turned my attention to my coupes and said and did nothing , now it's starting to really bother me. I'm getting pissed off about it. I want my engine back Goddammit! But I fear the confrontation!
Terry
Then why complain here ?? Don`t you think the word will get back to them from some one on F/B and that will just make them get really P/O at you for not getting back to them with all you have said ??..

Last edited by F.M.; 06-17-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: Schwalms

Exactly!!
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:34 AM   #23
Dave in MN
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Default Re: Schwalms

Terry,
Quote from your opening post: "It just seemed to get tighter and tighter until it stopped completely and now it is solidly stuck and can't be budged with a 3/4 drive breaker bar with a three foot pipe."
To clarify, the engine was running over the/some past winter and it seized up as it was running. This is the way I read your description. Based on this understanding I continue:
From your description of how the engine locked up, I would bet the rear main bearing shell had too little oil clearance and it overheated and welded itself to the crank journal.
I would take the engine back to Schwalms and have them increase the clearance a couple tenths at the rear main. They are going to want to observe the condition and learn from the failure.

I only rebuild engines with insert bearings. I have about 180 engines out and running well. I had this "lock-up" happen a couple times about 8 years ago when I switched from Babbitt lined bearing shells to bearing grade aluminum lined shells. Luckily, only one customer (for me, not for him) had this happen while the engine was in his car. He had just made a hard 60 mph run against a strong wind for about 30 miles on the highway with about 320 miles on the engine. The rest of the failures were on my engine test stand while connected to the dyno I use to break the engines in. The aluminum lined inserts needed more clearance than the Babbitt lined. I now provide .002" to .0022" clearance and have not had any issues with seizing or leaks. The bearing insert manufacturer suggested .00175" clearance and when I used this spec, the bearing would occasionally seize when under heavy load. After experiencing the failure, I actually completed a round of tests on a test engine to determine the clearance needed. I actually tried to make it seize under heavy dyno load and was successful several times at .00175" clearance. Methods of measuring clearance may vary from one assembler to another and I believe the way I measure clearance (with plastigage) may not be the same as the supplier of these bearings as I know they use a dial bore gauge. I may have not had .00175" clearance but thought I did. Regardless, I needed to increase the clearance.
Each shop needs to develop and prove their assembly methods. Since your engine was not likely run under load, I can see how it may go undetected by the engine builder. By taking the engine back to them, you are actually helping them improve their product. I would without hesitation, take an engine back like this and want to make the repairs. I would not want it taken apart by the owner as much of the opportunity to learn from the failure would be diminished.

To fine tune the clearance adjustment, I fabricated a fixture to hold the bearing shells in the "crushed" or compressed state and hone the aluminum bearing surface with my Sunnen Precision hone. The stones are a specific compound and grit, purchased after consulting with my Sunnen area rep, to correctly hone the aluminum material.
Over time, I have worked with my crankshaft grinder to provide me the proper diameter main journals (near the small size of the manufacturer's spec.) to eliminate the extra honing process but always have the ability to make a minor adjustment if needed. I posted photos of the fixture, made from two rear main caps, to hold the shells for honing a couple years ago. I'll see if I can find them and either link the post or add the photos again.

In the meantime, the repair of this problem is not an expensive fix for the engine shop. I have been able to remove the welded shells with a brass punch and then carefully remove the built-up/melted on aluminum from the journal with acid. In only two cases did the crankshaft need to be re-ground.

I suggest: Put the pan back on loosely and remove the engine from your car and take it back to Schwalms. Explain exactly how the engine acted as it locked up and suggest to them that it may have been from too little clearance at the rear main. They are good people at that shop. I believe they will treat you right.
Good Day!

Last edited by Dave in MN; 06-19-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Schwalms

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Then why complain here ?? Don`t you think the word will get back to them from some one on F/B and that will just make them get really P/O at you for not getting back to them with all you have said ??..
I'm with noboD. Double-exactly.

Best thing to do is not post this here, but get back with them directly, face to face is best, and hold your composure and get this solved. You've been fooling with it so I would understand if they didn't want to warranty this engine. Propane torch to the cylinders? Yikes.

I would probably have tried the ATF/Acetone mix first. And, you should have run that engine in better then that to begin with. It is 'hard' on any car to sit around and not be run. Probably the worst thing you can do to an automobile.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:26 PM   #25
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Been in the warranty business as an equipment mechanic for a long time,your case is a 'policy' question,any warranty expressed or implied has long expired due to the five year time lapse.Policy means that we back our work as a matter of goodwill,and judge a policy cases based on merit...why did you wait 5 years to call? Why did you heat the cylinders and take the pan off? These things limit a policy case coming out in your favor...
Taking a grievance to the open forum does irreparable damage to the vendor.I understand your frustration but this ain't the place to air your issue.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Schwalms

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Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
Terry,
To clarify, the engine was running over the/some past winter and it seized up as it was running. This is the way I read your description. Based on this understanding I continue:
From your description of how the engine locked up, I would bet the rear main bearing shell had too little oil clearance and it overheated and welded itself to the crank journal.
I would take the engine back to Schwalms and have them increase the clearance a couple tenths at the rear main. They are going to want to observe the condition and learn from the failure.

I only rebuild engines with insert bearings. I have about 180 engines out and running well. I had this "lock-up" happen a couple times about 8 years ago when I switched from Babbitt lined bearing shells to bearing grade aluminum lined shells. Luckily, only one customer (not for him but for me) had this happen while the engine was in his car. He had just made a 60 mph run for about 30 miles on the highway with about 320 miles on the engine. The rest of the failures were on my engine test stand while connected to the dyno I use to break the engines in. The aluminum lined inserts needed more clearance than the Babbitt lined. I now provide .002" to .0022" clearance and have not had any issues with seizing or leaks. The bearing insert manufacturer suggested .00175" clearance and when I used this spec, the bearing would occasionally seize when under heavy load. After experiencing the failure, I actually completed a round of tests on a test engine to determine the clearance needed. I actually tried to make it seize under heavy dyno load and was successful several times at .00175" clearance. Methods of measuring clearance may vary from one assembler to another and I believe the way I measure clearance (with plastigage) may not be the same as the supplier of these bearings as I know they use a dial bore gauge. I may have not had .00175" clearance but thought I did. Regardless, I needed to increase the clearance.
Each shop needs to develop and prove their assembly methods. Since your engine was not likely run under load, I can see how it may go undetected by the engine builder. By taking the engine back to them, you are actually helping them improve their product. I would without hesitation, take an engine back like this and want to make the repairs. I would not want it taken apart by the owner as much of the opportunity to learn from the failure would be diminished.

To fine tune the clearance adjustment, I fabricated a fixture to hold the bearing shells in the "crushed" or compressed state and hone the aluminum bearing surface with my Sunnen Precision hone. The stones are a specific compound and grit, purchased after consulting with my Sunnen area rep, to correctly hone the aluminum material.
Over time, I have worked with my crankshaft grinder to provide me the proper diameter main journals to eliminate the extra honing process but always have to ability to make a minor adjustment if needed. I posted photos of the fixture used to hold the shells for honing a couple years ago. I'll see if I can find them and either link the post or add the photos again.

In the meantime, the repair of this problem is not an expensive fix for the engine shop. I have been able to remove the welded shells with a brass punch and then carefully remove the built-up/melted on aluminum from the journal with acid. In only two cases did the crankshaft need to be re-ground.

I suggest: Put the pan back on loosely and remove the engine from your car and take it back to Schwalms. Explain exactly how the engine acted as it locked up and suggest to them that it may have been from too little clearance at the rear main. They are good people at that shop. I believe they will treat you right.
Good Day!
Thanks for posting this Dave, What you are describing is exactly what, and the way it stopped! I'm having a lot of emotional stuff in my mind (And I notice there a full moon, that can complicate things) If it weren't for the $5G I have into it, I'd like to drop it on his doorstep. But cooler heads have to prevail. As far as why bring it up here? I needed to ventilate. I was thinking of all the excuse he would as to why it happened to me, and how it was my fault for something I did or didn't do. and this thing's been out of warranty so long..... Blah, Blah, Blah.You know the same tired old spiel. Plus how everyone regards him as a god, well why didn't God return my call? I only hope this thing turns out with me giving an apology to Ora and the shop. Hell I'd even take him out for a steak dinner! We'll see!
Terry
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: Schwalms

Pan off? Get under the car,take a dead blow or a rubber hammer and knock the big ends of the rods fore and aft..the rod bearings should have a 'click' of side to side play..on the ones you cant hit use a pry bar to check...if all the rods "click" check the crankshaft end play by using the pry bar and prying the crankshaft fore and aft.if the crank doesnt move you have a tight main,check center first then rear......if all the rods click and the crank moves fore and aft,you have a stuck piston,wadded up oil pump or distributor or bad cam gear..but that's rare..
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Schwalms

I just installed an engine Schwalm’s rebuilt for me - they did a great job and I’m very happy with the way it runs. They were very professional to deal with and always answered by email notes.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:38 PM   #29
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Default Re: Schwalms

So after today's rant and pressure relieving, I figured another call was in order. Once again, Ora did not answer, but he did call me right back! Which I was glad for and we had a long chat mostly about the engine. Anyway, I told him what I had done to it and the pan and the head were off and he said bring it back ASAP. So I took some more stuff off the car to facilitate the engine removal which will be as soon as the weather allows. He seemed extraodinarily willing to help me and I tried to reply in kind. I will see what happens. I'm happy for now though
Terry
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Schwalms

I had a Chevy six that did exactly what yours is doing.The owner pulled it out of a 55 Chevy in 1967 and had it rebuilt.He put it back in,ran it around the yard for an hour or so,he said probably 5 minutes at a time.Parked it in the garage while he spent a couple of years in Southeast Asia.When he came home he bought a new Camaro and had lost interest in the 55.I bought it in 1976 and after I got it running it only ran for a few minutes.It slowed down,squeeked,and died.All the top rings had some white powder behind them,and would not compress into the grooves.The other two rings,compression and oil,had what looked like asphalt behind them holding them out.The guy that had built the engine was willing to look at it,just to advise me.He said,clean the corrosion out of the top ring grooves,the tar out of the rest of them,and then show me the pistons.He gave me six new top rings and told me to put it back together.It had not been run enough to melt out the assembly lube and burn off the condensation when first fired up.It had not hurt the walls one iota,because I had not attempted to run it again after it quit.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:47 PM   #31
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Default Re: Schwalms

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So after today's rant and pressure relieving, I figured another call was in order. Once again, Ora did not answer, but he did call me right back! Which I was glad for and we had a long chat mostly about the engine. Anyway, I told him what I had done to it and the pan and the head were off and he said bring it back ASAP. So I took some more stuff off the car to facilitate the engine removal which will be as soon as the weather allows. He seemed extraodinarily willing to help me and I tried to reply in kind. I will see what happens. I'm happy for now though
Terry
A sound businessman knows integrity is the key to success
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:58 PM   #32
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i just installed an engine schwalm’s rebuilt for me - they did a great job and i’m very happy with the way it runs. They were very professional to deal with and always answered by email notes.
x-2
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Old 06-17-2019, 07:27 PM   #33
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A sound businessman knows integrity is the key to success
Amen!
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:26 AM   #34
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Default Re: Schwalms

My shop has purchased 6 or 7 engines from Ora over the past years and never a problem. Have a brand new rebuild in my 31 Panel Truck and it runs great.
Give them a chance at least to take or email. He is a good man.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:45 AM   #35
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My shop has purchased 6 or 7 engines from Ora over the past years and never a problem. Have a brand new rebuild in my 31 Panel Truck and it runs great.
Give them a chance at least to take or email. He is a good man.
Exactly, very true!
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:48 AM   #36
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"The Fireside" is a nice restaurant in Strasburg. Def. get a good steak there!
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: Schwalms

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. Plus how everyone regards him as a god, well why didn't God return my call?
Terry
Terry THAT's funny!!

Good to see you're on the road to getting your problem resolved. None of us here would like to take 5G in the shorts

I've heard similar stuff about Rich in Skokie, Ill. that builds insert Model A motors. Most folks praise his work but I know several who had major problems and wouldn't recommend him to anybody.

I guess sometimes it's just a crap shoot. The difference is how the problem gets fixed.

But from reading this, I'll know not to have a motor done and them let it sit and wait for the car to be finished The motor had better be one of the last things to get done.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:03 PM   #38
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Good Idea Jeff! But let me tell you just how old and slow I'm getting to be! I had it all planned out in my mind how long it would take, Three years , maybe four ! That was about eight years ago. I was moving along pretty good and I kept hitting stopping points on the body , like bending the gutters and shimming the body to get the doors to close. and replacing the glass. Yes, the guys in here have been a big help, but I need someone to show me. Just dumb I guess. I was getting pretty far, the body was done and painted, all new wood. The windshield was done. and fitted Lotsa stuff done and I want it all finished, and I will have it sometime. Do you understand why I abandoned this project? How much frustration can a person take?
Terry
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Schwalms

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Good Idea Jeff! But let me tell you just how old and slow I'm getting to be! I had it all planned out in my mind how long it would take, Three years , maybe four ! That was about eight years ago. I was moving along pretty good and I kept hitting stopping points on the body , like bending the gutters and shimming the body to get the doors to close. and replacing the glass. Yes, the guys in here have been a big help, but I need someone to show me. Just dumb I guess. I was getting pretty far, the body was done and painted, all new wood. The windshield was done. and fitted Lotsa stuff done and I want it all finished, and I will have it sometime. Do you understand why I abandoned this project? How much frustration can a person take?
Terry
Hang in there ! Sounds like you are on the comeback trail and should have the old Henry on the road in a few weeks. Looking forward to a happy conclusion.
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Old 06-18-2019, 09:59 PM   #40
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Terry , it will be alright in the end ,if it is not alright now it is not the end .!!!! a quote from a movie the Grand Budapest Hotel ,VERY INSPIRING
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