'31 Murray Body Number Plates

[Paul Woolner]

I have been searching for years, trying to find the proper format for creating a replacement Body Number Plate for my 1931 Murray Fordor. I know as an example, that it might appear as M-460-12345. My questions are: 1. what is the significance of the 460 ( is it assembly plant, body type) and 2. the 12345 I presume is just the next assembly line number, not the serial number of the car. I appreciate any information and pictorial detail you may be able to provide.
Paul

[Marco Tahtaras]

The first three numbers represented the manufacturers body type. For the most part they have no correlation to Ford's numbering. The trailing numbers were the manufacturers serial number. I'm pretty sure that in all cases Murray preceded their body type number with "M". Briggs did not precede the number with anything.

As an example of the seeming random body type number, a 1930 or 1931 STRAIGHT windshield Murray bodied Town Sedan was Ford's model 155-C. Murray's designation for that body was M604. I have no idea what Murray's number was for the 165-C Standard Fordor. With introduction of the slant windshield models Briggs numbers remained seemingly disconnected. However Murray adapted Ford's body type number so a slant windshield Town Sedan would be M160B xxxx I believe.

Is your car a slant windshield model? If so, how did you determine it was built by Murray?

[Paul Woolner]

Thanks Marco. Mine is a straight windshield. I appreciate your explanation of the numbering. The car was built at the Danforth plant in Toronto and there is an assembly line number stamped in the wood subframe, prefixed with a T. I would probably be safe in using the numbers following the T, simply for my own satisfaction.

[swo4rd]

Originally Posted by Paul Woolner

Thanks Marco. Mine is a straight windshield. I appreciate your explanation of the numbering. The car was built at the Danforth plant in Toronto and there is an assembly line number stamped in the wood subframe, prefixed with a T. I would probably be safe in using the numbers following the T, simply for my own satisfaction.

Paul, what is the number after the "T"? I found it stamped on the three cars I have done and also written in chalk on the backs of the seats. I later found out it was the date and the number of the vehicle on the assembly line...it is how the interiors were coordinated into the cars. "T" might stand for Toronto. Marco's statements are correct...I can speak to the Brigg's body tags which had the name of the company etched in the bottom of the tag as shown on Peter's 180A Phaeton at Hershey this past week.

[Tudortomnz]

If your car was built at Toronto & has ''T ......'' stamped into the floor wood, it was not therefore built by Murray in the US, & would not have a Murray #.
These straight windsheild sedans were sometimes built in ''foreign'' plants eg. Geelong ,Australia & Manchester England.
The ones sent to New Zealand & Sth Africa were stamped ''3F/5F'' [stylised F] in 1930 '31 & were assembled at the main Ontario Plant [ Ford, Ontario], Canada.

[Bick in New Zealand]

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Here is a photo of what Tom is talking about. (Photo courtesy of Tom)

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Tudortomnz

If your car was built at Toronto & has ''T ......'' stamped into the floor wood, it was not therefore built by Murray in the US, & would not have a Murray #.
These straight windsheild sedans were sometimes built in ''foreign'' plants eg. Geelong ,Australia & Manchester England.
The ones sent to New Zealand & Sth Africa were stamped ''3F/5F'' [stylised F] in 1930 '31 & were assembled at the main Ontario Plant [ Ford, Ontario], Canada.

Ok, I'm confused again. With the exception of the Leather back, all straight windshield Fordor models produced in Canada were with Murray built bodies from the USA. By contrast the slant windshield bodies were redesigned to be assembled from sub-assemblies that could come from multiple sources. The couple Canadian S/W bodies I've studied were clearly imported from the USA in sections and assembled in Canada. These obviously would have no body tags like many of those produced and sold here in the USA.

That takes us back to the Murray body tags. Were there actually some straight windshield Murray bodies delivered without body tags? If so, were there holes for such a tag present in the firewall?

[heneste]

I'm not an expert in relation to the numbering systems but it was mentioned that the Murray numbers have no correlation to the Ford numbering system.

Is one number on the car represented by the manufacturer (say Briggs or Murray) while another number may be stamped on it to indicate assembly plant? Murray and Briggs sent alot of their body assemblies to the various Ford plants didn't they?

[TD]

any one have a picture of a Murry plate - that would be mint!

[Bick in New Zealand]

"The couple Canadian S/W bodies I've studied were clearly imported from the USA in sections and assembled in Canada. These obviously would have no body tags like many of those produced and sold here in the USA."

I am not sure about the 160 series bodies, but the Victorias were assembled by the Canadian Top and Body Corporation Ltd. Tilbury Ontario. I know they produced Deluxe Coupes in 1932 for Ford Canada.

[Tudortomnz]

Ive been interested in trying to track the origins of the Canadian Model A's here in NZ for a few years now.
Re the Canadian Murray style 3W fordor straight windscreen jobs, none Ive seen here have had Murray body plates as per the US ones. This is except for the 1929 3W fordors which usually have the Murray coachwork badge on the lower r/h cowl corner. They are not drilled or punched for a body plate; in fact the Canadian cars had no ford data plate at all attached after 1928.
As Marco says, the Canadian assembled sedans probably used US Murray stamped panels but they were jigged up & welded in Canada & show use of Robertsons throughout. Therefore my opinion is that they should not have a Murray body plate?
In Europe, similar body assembly of the Briggs 3W fordors occurred, with Manchester plant adapting them to the different export & home market requirements
There has been some great work done by the Model T guys [Hap Tucker]on US & Canadian Ford body #s which helped sort out Canadian & Australian body assembly.
Also an interest in early V8 assembly is valuable to sort out the Model A era.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Tudortomnz

As Marco says, the Canadian assembled sedans probably used US Murray stamped panels but they were jigged up & welded in Canada & show use of Robertsons throughout. Therefore my opinion is that they should not have a Murray body plate?

I've spent WAY too much time with Murray and Briggs bodied Fordor models and can say without question that the method of manufacturing did NOT provide the option of assembling elsewhere. Not even Ford could do so which is why the there was extensive re-engineering for the slant windshield models.

For example the door sheet metal was final formed around the wooden frame with the jamb skins installed to the wood first and then the outer skin positioned by the window opening in the wood and then the perimeter was folded over the jamb skins and spot welded. Similarly, the body skins were installed around a complete wooden frame that was sized as sub-assemblies but completely assembled in jigs (including the cowl assembly) before the skin (or skins) could be attached. There is way more to it than I can describe here but the method of manufacturing didn't leave many options.

Finally, it's worth noting that until about April-May 1930 the Murray and Briggs body tags were nailed to the wood floor sills near the front floor boards. These are often lost due to bad wood, etc., so the lack of such a tag must be considered.

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

I've spent WAY too much time with Murray and Briggs bodied Fordor models and can say without question that the method of manufacturing did NOT provide the option of assembling elsewhere. Not even Ford could do so which is why the there was extensive re-engineering for the slant windshield models.

That may be so, but how do we explain the Canadian specific fordor body #s & the information on Ford Australia of their body building in the Model A era. My Father had three of these Canadian fordor sedans & I have owned another. I have looked at many over the years. Have you been able to examine many Canadian sedans ?

[Arlen]

The feb 31 Murray town sedan I'm working on now shows no signs that it ever had a Murray tag on the firewall but my A400 does have the tag. I wonder what determined which car got a tag on the wall and which cars got it on the door wood etc?

[Bick in New Zealand]

Originally Posted by TD

any one have a picture of a Murry plate - that would be mint!

Here are a couple from Victorias

[Bick in New Zealand]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

I've spent WAY too much time with Murray and Briggs bodied Fordor models and can say without question that the method of manufacturing did NOT provide the option of assembling elsewhere. Not even Ford could do so which is why the there was extensive re-engineering for the slant windshield models.

For example the door sheet metal was final formed around the wooden frame with the jamb skins installed to the wood first and then the outer skin positioned by the window opening in the wood and then the perimeter was folded over the jamb skins and spot welded. Similarly, the body skins were installed around a complete wooden frame that was sized as sub-assemblies but completely assembled in jigs (including the cowl assembly) before the skin (or skins) could be attached. There is way more to it than I can describe here but the method of manufacturing didn't leave many options.

Finally, it's worth noting that until about April-May 1930 the Murray and Briggs body tags were nailed to the wood floor sills near the front floor boards. These are often lost due to bad wood, etc., so the lack of such a tag must be considered.

I can understand where you are coming from on this, but what this does not explain, is why there are Roberston screws holding the bodywood together that then has the metalwork nailed over the frame. This could only have been done before the body was assembled. Here in New Zealand the only Canadian bodies I have come across that don't contain Robertson screws are cabriolets. They also have the US style Briggs Body plate / numbers on the firewall.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

I can understand where you are coming from on this, but what this does not explain, is why there are Roberston screws holding the bodywood together that then has the metalwork nailed over the frame. This could only have been done before the body was assembled. Here in New Zealand the only Canadian bodies I have come across that don't contain Robertson screws are cabriolets. They also have the US style Briggs Body plate / numbers on the firewall.

The 60-A leather back, 180-A Deluxe Phaeton, and 68-A,B,& C Cabriolets were the only Briggs bodies sold in Canada so Briggs had a fairly small presence there. Murray by contrast produced many models (mostly closed bodies) for Canadian production.

I've never seen either a Victoria or straight windshield Fordor from Canada or I'd be able to outline even the most subtle differences. If these models had Robertson screws in the body construction there are only two possible explanations I can see. First would be a Murray plant in Canada beginning in 1931. Unfortunately I haven't found anything else to support this and I've tried for a few years now. Second would be that due to the volume of Murray bodies coming into Canada there may have been a requirement for "domestic content" where Murray would use things such as trim fabrics, seat springs, screws, etc., manufactured in Canada. There certainly could be another scenario but I can't see one.

Originally Posted by Tudortomnz

That may be so, but how do we explain the Canadian specific fordor body #s & the information on Ford Australia of their body building in the Model A era. My Father had three of these Canadian fordor sedans & I have owned another. I have looked at many over the years. Have you been able to examine many Canadian sedans ?

Numbers stamped in the wood could be done anywhere at any time. This is likely an issue of record keeping somewhat like the stampings found on many steel bodies in the USA as well as those exported from here.

Ford Australia was definitely a unique situation all it's own. The Australian Town Sedan shown here a few months back was VERY enlightening. It is somewhat a facsimile of a Murray body but a little different in essentially every respect. With the possible exception of the cowl there is not another piece interchangeable with a Murray body.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

I am not sure about the 160 series bodies, but the Victorias were assembled by the Canadian Top and Body Corporation Ltd. Tilbury Ontario. I know they produced Deluxe Coupes in 1932 for Ford Canada.

What are the indications that they had any involvement with the Victoria?

[Bick in New Zealand]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

What are the indications that they had any involvement with the Victoria?

Over the years there have been several featured in the 'Bustle' the Victoria Association Newsletter, all had the Canadian body and Top Corp. Body Tags on them including Body Number 1.
Recently there was a very complete unrestored one for sale on ebay. It was unique in that it still had the original leather upholstery offered by Ford Canada for an extra $18.
Photo courtesy "The Bustle" Editor Tom Endy and CMAFF.

A-8-2 in the 1932 Ford book by David Rehor shows two different 'Tilbury' tags used on the 1932 Canadian deluxe coupe bodies.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

Over the years there have been several featured in the 'Bustle' the Victoria Association Newsletter, all had the Canadian body and Top Corp. Body Tags on them including Body Number 1.
Recently there was a very complete unrestored one for sale on ebay. It was unique in that it still had the original leather upholstery offered by Ford Canada for an extra $18.
Photo courtesy "The Bustle" Editor Tom Endy and CMAFF.

A-8-2 in the 1932 Ford book by David Rehor shows two different 'Tilbury' tags used on the 1932 Canadian deluxe coupe bodies.

That tag is interesting! I had never zoomed in on the original pic to see what it said.

Although I can't recite specific details but I'm sure those that have researched the Canadian auto industry of the period know that Canada did control/limit imports. My best guess is that Canadian body and Top Corp was used as an intermediary beginning late 1930 or 1931 as a means to work around those issues and played a very limited roll in actual "construction" of the Murray bodies but their assigned body serial numbers was part of the process to make it "official".

I have about 150 photos of #488. I spent a bit of time studying them this morning. It surprised me based on this thread that there is not a single Robertson screw used in the assembly and trimming of the body including the dash rail. That indicates to me that the body was shipped from Murray completely painted (base color) and trimmed which was common practice here. Of course those items added on the assembly line such as instrument panel, floor boards, etc., were installed with Robertson screws.

[Tudortomnz]

This has been an interesting discussion on Canadian 3W fordors & we probably all know a little more.
I still am thinking the the wood floor stamped letter& #'s, and lack of any US Murray body tag strongly indicates these sedans were built up in Canada ; some individual stamped panels may have come in from Detroit.
I have a few Canadian stamped #'s from these Standard & Town sedans & they follow the standard Ford practise used in Nth America in that era.I do not think they are random stamped letters or done outside the plant.

They are either 3F [ stylised f like Ford script] for 155C town sedan & 5F for the 165C standard 3W fordors. 5F 434 was an early '30 165C owned by my father ; he also had 5F 1584 which was rego'd new here Aug. 16 '30 but had the early '30 tank & oval speedo.
5F 1677 is a late '30 standard with the ribbed dash & round speedo & 3F 3240 was rego'd new here in early 1931 ; the chronology is obvious.
All other Canadian Ontario plant letters & #'s seen on New Zealand Model A's are as per US system eg. F4- 17035 [ my late '29 Tudor], 1F 7905 [ 1931 Coupe], 4F 5964 [ 1931 Tudor] but they reflect the low production runs of the Canadian lines. 'F' was the stamp letter used by Ontario [ Ford City] since late Model T production. F was also the Ford Detroit letter, but I believe there is a size difference between the two & Canadian production #'s are much lower as would be expected.

Also ,Ford Australia was a wholly owned subsidary of Ford Canada & they provided the tooling & machinary for the updated Model A Factory at Geelong. This factory was building Model A bodies from 1928[ & using woodframes in roadsters & phaetons!]then from 1930 were stamping metal panels [ not fenders, hoods, tanks etc] for the 3W fordors, roadsters, phaetons, spt coupe plus many commercial types not seen in Nth America.Surely Canada was doing similar at its own main plant at Ford [Windsor] Ontario.?They were getting the govt. subsidies & tax rebates to do as much as possible within Canada & the whole Ford Canada enterprise only worked due to its large export markets in world British Dominions.

[Bick in New Zealand]

This thread, is why I enjoy Fordbarn, so much. I have spent most of my spare time recently reading, talking to people and generally trying to make some sense of what was happening on the Canadian assembly lines during the early thirties.
Canada, like all members of the British Commonwealth had plenty of import regulations to protect their own industries, and like the rest, the motor vehicle industry was no different, encouraging as much local content and labour as they could.( this is fairly obvious from the different component manufacturers used on the Canadian Model A). If you are going to go to the trouble to make your own copy of the motor, body construction would be no more difficult. After the Briggs 60A,B,&C Murray bodies were used with the introduction of the 155 series. I have been told but am unable to verify it that Murray provided all the jigs for Murray body assembly in Canada. I have also been told that Murray had a financial interest in the Canadian Top and Body Corporation. CTBC. was no small concern producing 100 Closed car bodies a day in 1928 for a number of companies. They continued making bodies for Ford Canada through to 1934. (Of interest the CTBC produced 3w and cabriolet bodies were also used by Hupmobile and sold in the 'Colonies')
Briggs produced the 29-31 cabriolet bodies, but in 1932 they were produced by Motor and Coach of Chatham Ont. I would be interested to know who built the 68C (slant screen) cabriolets in Canada. Until further information comes to light we will continue to discuss this with vigour and enthusiasm and form our own opinions accordingly.
Body Tag photo courtesy of Ian Staples

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

If you are going to go to the trouble to make your own copy of the motor, body construction would be no more difficult.

Suggesting those were "copies" is like suggesting fenders made at the Long Beach plant were "copies" of those made at the Rouge. In reality both examples were simply Ford products made in different locations.

I have been told but am unable to verify it that Murray provided all the jigs for Murray body assembly in Canada. I have also been told that Murray had a financial interest in the Canadian Top and Body Corporation.

I considered the idea that Murray had direct connection but haven't found anything to support the idea.

What folks don't understand is that Murray bodies were not simply assembled from a pile of pre-manufactured parts but much of the wood was finished (machined) to size DURING the assembly process so the finished overall dimensions of the sum of the parts would fit the steel skins.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Suggesting those were "copies" is like suggesting fenders made at the Long Beach plant were "copies" of those made at the Rouge. In reality both examples were simply Ford products made in different locations.


I agree, "copies" was a bad choice of word, what I meant was building a body in a different location was no more difficult that building an engine from scratch using local suppliers for parts.

What folks don't understand is that Murray bodies were not simply assembled from a pile of pre-manufactured parts but much of the wood was finished (machined) to size DURING the assembly process so the finished overall dimensions of the sum of the parts would fit the steel skins.

I agree totally, with you on this, as Ford Canada had the knowledge and materials to build closed cars, the construction of the 155 series would not have been too difficult to solve especially with Murray Expertise and input just over the border.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Interesting post Vince, I have a friend here in NZ who has a Canadian manufactured RHD 1923 Gray sedan. It has wooden spoke wheels and looks very much like its Model T counterpart.
The intereresting thing about Canadian Top & Body is they produced the Deluxe Coupe and Victorias in 1932 but not the 400B.

[Marco Tahtaras]

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Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

Interesting post Vince, I have a friend here in NZ who has a Canadian manufactured RHD 1923 Gray sedan. It has wooden spoke wheels and looks very much like its Model T counterpart.
The intereresting thing about Canadian Top & Body is they produced the Deluxe Coupe and Victorias in 1932 but not the 400B.

The big question is, have you seen either? The point being is did it look and match up to the U.S. models or are were they different. There was nothing to say they had to have any relation to U'S. production or be anything like ours just like Australian Fordors were unique to their needs and economic situation although they were a reasonable facsimile of our models. I haven't yet found a "body type" number for the Australian Fordor. Just because Ford of Canada called one model a "Deluxe Coupe" doesn't mean it was anything like ours. Folks tend to make assumptions based on model names.

[Bick in New Zealand]

I have seen several '32 Deluxe Coupes here, and one '32 Victoria that were NZ cars from new and they appear to be identical to their US Counterparts.
I have just returned from a Club run and intended to take some photos of the local Murray bodied 155 series cars for your perusal but unfortunately the battery was flat in my camera. However I will get some taken for you to compare.
Blue '32 and tag photo courtesy Ian Staples

[Bick in New Zealand]

Here are some random local '30 Murray Sedans I had on file

[mpalilonis]

My '31 SW drivers side frame rail reads 15F453. Would either of you be able to tell me anything from that? Oh, and the entire car is built using all Robertson screws.

Mike

[Tudortomnz]

Canadian assembled s/w Sedan. We did not get the s/w 's here new but I have seen photos on the 'net of a Canadian s/w '31 RHD in Sth Africa which had ''15F with a following low number.

[mpalilonis]

Do you happen to know what was the assembly range of "15F"? After reading your post last night i went and looked at my car and did not find the body tag on my car anywhere. Although the firewall tag does say Ford Canada.

[Bick in New Zealand]

15F was the designation Ford Canada gave to the 160A standard fordor. They made 1374 standard fordors in 1931, how many were 160As (Slant screen) as opposed to the 155C (Straight screen) is unknown at this stage.
I have only seen body tags on those that were built in the US and sent as a complete body unit.

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Do you happen to know what was the assembly range of "15F"? After reading your post last night i went and looked at my car and did not find the body tag on my car anywhere. Although the firewall tag does say Ford Canada.

You are lucky if your car has the Canadian data plate. They stopped putting them on after 1928, but I am not sure about the later '31's as there are not many here in NZ.
As Bick says, ''15'' refers to the s/w fordors & ''F'' denotes the Ontario Plant at East Windsor.
Most Canadian assembled bodies I have seen here only carry stamped Ontario body numbers but no attached tags as seen on US assembled cars.
Any chance of putting up a photo?
Tom

[mpalilonis]

I think you might have misread my previous post. As I do NOT have the body tag on the firewall. All I have is the frame stamp. Here is the body stamping in the metal frame rail just under the drivers seat. The wood at the top of the picture is to the access panel for the battery.
PHOTO 2_crop.jpg

Engine Number #CAS9506...built sometime in the last week of May '31 or first week of June '31.
PHOTO 1_crop.jpg

1931 SW Town Sedan - Canadian Model (Robertson Screws Throughout)
PHOTO 3_crop.jpg

[Tudortomnz]

Thanks for posting the photos. Nice car! Probably the most comfortable & roomy Model A made.
The engine colour looks grey? I believe the very early & the last Canadian engines were sometimes finished in grey.
Tom

[mpalilonis]

Tom the engine is a bit weak in the paint department, faded green... But that's interesting about your comment about the grey color in '31. Do you have any pictures showing a grey motor? Do you know what the end of the engine run is for the Canadian cars that would have had that color? If its suppose to be gray, I'll have it done that way when I pop it out.

[160B]

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Tom the engine is a bit weak in the paint department, faded green... But that's interesting about your comment about the grey color in '31. Do you have any pictures showing a grey motor? Do you know what the end of the engine run is for the Canadian cars that would have had that color? If its suppose to be gray, I'll have it done that way when I pop it out.

According to the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards area 1 supplemented by the section for Canadian Model A’s. Area 1 page F-2 under engine (left side) “ All engine components of a Model “A” manufactured in Canada were either Ford Engine Green or ford engine Gray.”

[mpalilonis]

Thanks.. Does it say anything about which color was painted when? I would assume the transmission would match the engine color.

[160B]

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Thanks.. Does it say anything about which color was painted when? I would assume the transmission would match the engine color.

The Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards do not provide any other information.

[Bick in New Zealand]

The transmission colour would match the engine. My understanding is that only those cars produced in the Western provinces were painted gray and that this occurred throughout production. Unfortunately it is difficult to distinguish gray / green on original black and white photos.

[Tudortomnz]

Concerning grey painted engines in Canada, there are two examples I know of.
An early 35A, one of the first sold new here in NZ [ CA 8625, body F359 Ontario] had grey on the engine ; it was a very good original car before restoration.
I also have a copy of a Restorer article on a very original ,low mileage 1931 Tudor [CAP 6125] from Ontario , which had an engine colour described as ''ditzler Battleship Grey''.
My own car [ which was mostly assembled in Canada] had faint remnants of Ford green still visible on the waterpump. It must have been a thin once over original Factory job.
The grey would look different/good, but somewhat controversial.