600w gear oil vs AMSOIL PRODUCTS

[josh1331]

Confused??? A rep. from amsoil said they have a replacement for our 600w gear oil. I asked for conformation from company. Has anyone had expereience with this company. Also , they have grease high temp and syn.oil for our cars. I asked for confirmation on using syn. oil in new engines or those that are new in milage. appreciate any comments thanks /JOSH email [email protected]

[Cool Hand Lurker]

When I lived in Bemidji, MN the temp was -35º one morning. I went to shift my standard transmission into gear and I bent the shifting forks because the tranny oil was as stiff as patching tar. After an expensive repair I put in Amzoil tranny lube and the lube always stayed thin and was very easy to shift even in the coldest weather. I sold the car about 50,000 miles later and the tranny was still in good shape. The one problem with any synthetic oil is that it will leak out easier so if your Model A leaks now it will be worse later.

[Pete]

Model A's should not leak anywhere....When I bought mine, it was bone stock...A very excellent restoration...It did not leak...
As the years went by, I changed a few things and many on here have seen my car...It still does not leak a drop anytime...I use only synthetic oil and lubes.....I like the added longeviety, horsepower and ease of driving they give me....If yours leaks, it has Mickey Mouseness.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by josh1331

Confused??? A rep. from amsoil said they have a replacement for our 600w gear oil. I asked for conformation from company. Has anyone had expereience with this company. Also , they have grease high temp and syn.oil for our cars. I asked for confirmation on using syn. oil in new engines or those that are new in milage. appreciate any comments thanks /JOSH email [email protected]

Why are you confused? Any slippery gear oil will work. I've only been involved with reading about Model A's for 10 years and I have yet to hear anyone going on record stating that brand X gear oil caused my, steering, transmission, or rear diff to fail. Anyone with more experence have personal knowledge of a certain gear oil causing a failure?

As for engine oil, I have read first hand accounts that users had had leakage problems with synthetics, and I have read first hand accounts of owners with no problems.

My opinion, don't waste the money, thousands of Model A's have have run tens of thousands of miles with all kinds of oil with no problems or failures.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Pete

Model A's should not leak anywhere....When I bought mine, it was bone stock...A very excellent restoration...It did not leak...
As the years went by, I changed a few things and many on here have seen my car...It still does not leak a drop anytime...I use only synthetic oil and lubes.....I like the added longeviety, horsepower and ease of driving they give me....If yours leaks, it has Mickey Mouseness.

You do know that in Austrailia being "Mickey Mouse" is a good thing?

[Kevin in NJ]

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You need and oil that is for for direct pressure.

The straight cut gears need a different type of lube then modern gears. Most the modern lube is designed for the sliding motion found on the modern gears.

Now are the lube guys you talking to familiar with how and why of the oils from the late 20's? The original oil is sticky and good for high pressures found in the rear and the tranny.

There are lots of opinions on oils and there are people relating how they used X and everything is fine. What they say may work fine, no one can prove otherwise, we just have to trust what they say.

We do know the original type oil is still being made, just the system for labeling the oil has changed to new numbers. We know the original oil does the correct job.

Marco had researched the modern numbers for the original type oil and here is what he found out:

Mobil:
Mobilgear 636

BP:
Energol GR-XP 680

Castrol:
Castrol Alpha LS680

Shell:
Omala 680

Texaco:
Meropa 680

[RonC]

Mobilgear 636 is discontinued and is now replaced with: Mobilgear 600 XP 680

[Model A Man]

Originally Posted by Pete

Model A's should not leak anywhere....When I bought mine, it was bone stock...A very excellent restoration...It did not leak...
As the years went by, I changed a few things and many on here have seen my car...It still does not leak a drop anytime...I use only synthetic oil and lubes.....I like the added longeviety, horsepower and ease of driving they give me....If yours leaks, it has Mickey Mouseness.

It makes me wonder about the picture that has been posted before that shows a new car dealership that has drip pans under the new cars.

[Chris Haynes]

The Model A is designed to drip into the flywhell housing to lubricate the ball joint for the wishbones. The cotter pin in the bottom of the flywheel housing is to make sure the hole doesn't plug up and fill the housing with oil. So one thing on a Model A will always drip.

[josh1331]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

When I lived in Bemidji, MN the temp was -35º one morning. I went to shift my standard transmission into gear and I bent the shifting forks because the tranny oil was as stiff as patching tar. After an expensive repair I put in Amzoil tranny lube and the lube always stayed thin and was very easy to shift even in the coldest weather. I sold the car about 50,000 miles later and the tranny was still in good shape. The one problem with any synthetic oil is that it will leak out easier so if your Model A leaks now it will be worse later.

Thanks, so you had synthetic lube in tranny? and the motor I assume?

[josh1331]

Originally Posted by Pete

Model A's should not leak anywhere....When I bought mine, it was bone stock...A very excellent restoration...It did not leak...
As the years went by, I changed a few things and many on here have seen my car...It still does not leak a drop anytime...I use only synthetic oil and lubes.....I like the added longeviety, horsepower and ease of driving they give me....If yours leaks, it has Mickey Mouseness.

what kind systhetic and what grades are used/john

[josh1331]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

You need and oil that is for for direct pressure.

The straight cut gears need a different type of lube then modern gears. Most the modern lube is designed for the sliding motion found on the modern gears.

Now are the lube guys you talking to familiar with how and why of the oils from the late 20's? The original oil is sticky and good for high pressures found in the rear and the tranny.

There are lots of opinions on oils and there are people relating how they used X and everything is fine. What they say may work fine, no one can prove otherwise, we just have to trust what they say.

We do know the original type oil is still being made, just the system for labeling the oil has changed to new numbers. We know the original oil does the correct job.

Marco had researched the modern numbers for the original type oil and here is what he found out:

Mobil:
Mobilgear 636

BP:
Energol GR-XP 680

Castrol:
Castrol Alpha LS680

Shell:
Omala 680

Texaco:
Meropa 680

Thank Kevin, appreciate..I assume these are all gear type oils by various vendors. /John

[dave in australia]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

You do know that in Austrailia being "Mickey Mouse" is a good thing?

To back up Mike's statement, "mickey mouse" means squeaky clean in Australia.

[milesoftexas]

Would you run Amsoil Severe Gear 75-140 to replace 600W in transmission and rear differential in a 39 Deluxe?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

OHH!
This is that OOOOOOOOOOLD THREAD! 2011
Buster T. (Slickern' Dog Spit!) Haven't yall' made up your minds yet-----oops, gotta' go, QUICK, Bill's coming-----

[H. L. Chauvin]

Josh,

Humble opinion:

Lately, from time to time I have been looking at independent oil comparison test reports based on American Society for Testing Laboratory Materials, (ASTM) & other standards & have found that if one Googles: Amsoil Comparison Test, ..... one will find that many independent companies have tested Amsoil motor oil & Amsoil gear oil, & they have reported that Amsoil products out perform all other motor oils & all other gear oils at many different temperatures thus resulting in different cSt viscosities from 40 to 100 degrees centigrade.

One such independent written report that I copied states:
Conclusion

As the testing indicates, AMSOIL Severe Gear ranked highest among all gear lubes tested in this gear oil comparison. It was the only gear lube to score a 4 or better in all performance categories. The high ranking of AMSOIL Severe Gear clearly points to a well-balanced formulation capable of delivering effective, long-lasting lubrication protection to all differential components. Most notable is the superior performance of AMSOIL Severe Gear in the critical areas of extreme-pressure protection and viscosity and oxidation stability. Based on the performance testing, the slightly higher than average price of AMSOIL Severe Gear would be offset by the cost savings achieved through reduced maintenance, longer lasting differentials and extended lubricant life.

If one goes on hot rod forums & other forums with comments from individuals with no scientific testing labs results, one hears altogether different lubrication preferences; similar to which cigarettes taste & puff better, are blondes always better looking than brunettes, is Tylenol better than Aspirin, with no comparative scientific lab test results for back up.

These written material testing laboratory reports such as ASTM tests reports & Underwriters Laboratory test reports are not free -- they cost material manufacturers a small fortune to have their products tested.

Also, comparing the sales pitches written on the manufacturer's lubricant labels and/or their sales literature does not tell us very much.

Some of the other Model A lubricants mentioned before rank fairly poorly, not to mention any specific brand names.

Don't own oil stock, but hope this helps -- just one way to try to seriously evaluate the comparison of Brans A apples to Brand B apples -- read lab "comparison" reports & you can determine what suits you best.

[Patrick L.]

Any oil today is far better than the stuff of old.. Amsoil makes good products and I would think they would work fine in our old cars.. I would like to know how it shifts if you decide to put it in the transmission though..

[Special Coupe Frank]

Kevin made a very good point about the TYPE of gear being lubricated: straight-cut spur gears.

Detroit stopped using these in automobile transmission for the most part by 1933, with the advent of helical-cut gears and synchromesh.

Yes, modern lubes are probably better than their 1930 equvalents, but it is still important to use the correct lube for the application.

You wouldn't want to put 600-weight in a "modern" hypoid rear-end; why put the "wrong" lube in an early car or truck ?

I invested in a 5-gallon pail of Lubriplate heavy gear oil (equivalent to old 600-weight). I think it was about $110 from my local jobber and will last me a lifetime.

I will post the product info when I get into the garage tomorrow.

SC Frank

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Josh,

Even though oil gets discussed often, to further investigate as requested, I sent a detailed question to a Technical Representative with AMSOIL concerning 600W & Model A straight cut gears.

Further below is his response whereby he recommends their AMSOIL ISO 460 gear & bearing oil.

According to AMSOIL written specifications, AMSOIL ISO 460's Viscosity Index is 139 as opposed to 90 - 95 for various Steam Engine Oils like the 680 Series, MOPAR etc.; hence, Amsoil is less affected by differences in higher & lower temperature changes.

The Viscosity cSt at 100 degrees C is C = 42.8 compared to Steam Engine Oils at C = 36.4 - 39.2; & their cSt viscosity at 40 degrees C is, C = 484.6 as compared to C = 646 - 680 for Steam Engine Oils.

Hope this helps -- he left a phone number & email address if one has further questions.


I am familiar with 600W Super Cylinder Oil, used in old Fords. It was an ISO 460 non-EP gear lube. AMSOIL ISO460 Gear and Bearing oil is recommended as a replacement for it when used in these cars. Its product code is RCO and is available in 5 gallon and larger quantities. See http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rc_series.aspx

Byron Selbrede
Technical Services

AMSOIL INC.
ADDRESS: 1 AMSOIL Center, Superior, WI 54880
E-MAIL:[email protected]
PHONE:715-392-7101
FAX:715-392-3097

[Kevin in NJ]

While I see the Amsoil rep addressing the viscosity, he does not talk about it being for straight cut gears. Yes, I know he claims that he is familiar with the old Fords, but a lot of people claim that.

Now I am not saying the oil is wrong- probably it is a much better solution than what many are using. Just these are questions about the gear oil I have learned to ask.

My thoughts are the Amsoil is great, but way more then you need for the amount of use. If the Amsoil is much pricier then the other oils I would say the extra cost is not warranted as most never drive their A's enough to realize and improvement. Yes, I have read some positive articles about their products and in some cases they are a better product. Sometimes a product is overkill for the use.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Josh,

According to AMSOIL written specifications, AMSOIL ISO 460's Viscosity Index is 139 as opposed to 90 - 95 for various Steam Engine Oils like the 680 Series, MOPAR etc.; hence, Amsoil is less affected by differences in higher & lower temperature changes.

The Viscosity cSt at 100 degrees C is C = 42.8 compared to Steam Engine Oils at C = 36.4 - 39.2; & the cSt viscosity at 40 degrees C is, C = 484.6 as compared to C = 646 - 680 for Steam Engine Oils.

He's correct here but C=484.6 Compares to SAE140 at best where (original) C=680 equates more closely to SAE250 which Ford changed to in 1932 except for sub-freezing temps. BIG difference at operating temps!

I am familiar with 600W Super Cylinder Oil, used in old Fords. It was an ISO 460 non-EP gear lube. AMSOIL ISO460 Gear and Bearing oil is recommended as a replacement for it when used in these cars. Its product code is RCO and is available in 5 gallon and larger quantities. See http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rc_series.aspx

Byron Selbrede
Technical Services

Now he shifted gears and equates the original to ISO 460, probably because Mobil changed their classification for "600w" in recent years from ISO 680 to ISO 460. The viscosity difference is significant.

With that said, the difference in viscosity adds little IF ANY value in lubricating qualities. Where it does make a difference is in seepage through unsealed passages to the outside which are many among the steering and transmission. Additionally, some folks find the higher viscosity better for shifting. Personally you could put in the viscosity equivalent to water and I'd adapt very quickly and both upshift and downshift with relative ease but that's me.

There ARE benefits to the higher viscosity lubricant originally employed by Ford but there is so much misinformation out there it becomes difficult to compare apples with apples.

[Art Bjornestad]

Any type of hypoid oil...any modern oil, is designed to leave a slight film on gear faces. These modern cut faces are under very severe wiping action and will get destroyed if a non hypoid oil is used. That is why they are labeled EP......extreme pressure.

The reason why the above is true is that 600 type (non hypoid) oils have a heavy cling action, perfect for straight cut gears but bad for modern gear cuts as the oil is sticking to the gear faces, just where it shouldn't be, and can cause tooth breakage and case hardening corrosion.

If you turn an A tranny when it is dry and on the bench you will hear the gears banging as they make face contact. Modern trannys are silent because the gears meet in a wiping action.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"perfect for straight cut gears but bad for modern gear cuts as the oil is sticking to the gear faces, just where it shouldn't be, and can cause tooth breakage and case hardening corrosion."

I would think oil on the gear faces would be great no matter straight or hypoid?

[H. L. Chauvin]

There are tons & tons of information on Gear Oils on the Internet if one is sincerely interested in reading reports from independent laboratories.

An important interesting concern one may want to consider only "if" living in extreme colder areas is that experienced by the gentleman in Reply no. 2 above, i.e., reporting one transmission lubricant at -35 degrees F was a failure; however, reporting an experience of switching to a transmission lubricant like AMSOIL that has a high Viscosity Index, (the higher the better), whereby no problems occured.


In the mentioning reply no. 19 above, the ANSOIL gentleman's reply is only the one in blue, responding to several very detailed questions I had sent him concerning straight cut gears. -- I had extracted & wrote the AMSOIL viscosities from the AMSOIL written specifications comparing same to the 680's etc just in case anyone was interested in same..


One can find that the gear box lubricant temperature at rest & the gear box lubricant temperature when in operation, are both naturally affected by the local ambient temperature; however, even though engine oil weights are specified differently for summer & winter, the same type of gear oil was & still is specified for both summer & winter; hence, viscosity indices will make a difference.

It would not be alarming to find that the former 600W used by Ford had a high viscosity index, otherwise it would not have functioned so well with varying ambient temperatures. Viscometers to determine viscosity of petroleum products were in use by major oil companies well prior to the Model A.


Also when trying to compare apples to apples, ISO is used a lot for industrial purposes whereas SAE is preferred for automotive purposes; however, a gear lubricant with a rating of SAE 140 can be equal to an ISO gear lubricant of anything between ISO 460 "and also" ISO 680 because the ISO Kinematic viscosity depends on the grades of centistokes all tested in the metric system accordance with ASTM D-445 established as early as 1937 when former 600W was still around & in use.

I just hope Josh has an answer to his initial question.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

"perfect for straight cut gears but bad for modern gear cuts as the oil is sticking to the gear faces, just where it shouldn't be, and can cause tooth breakage and case hardening corrosion."

I would think oil on the gear faces would be great no matter straight or hypoid?

The "sticky" of the 600-weight, inhibits the sliding / wiping action of the hypoid gears. I had not heard of breakage being a consequence, but definitely accelerated wear when non EP lubes are used with Hypoid gears.


As for straight-cut (spur) gears "banging" as each each pair of teeth make contact, if you go to a tractor show where there are steam tractors or very large early gasoline tractors where the drive gears are all exposed, you'll probably hear the spur-gears clattering as the machine rolls by.

SC Frank