The Ford Barn

tenniesgrandpa · 10-19-2015, 02:15 AM

How do isky max-1, 77, and 88 compare? Building a 49 for a project, not sure what it will be, thinking a trike.
Other is heads, is there any difference between ford and merc heads?
Thinking about using a merc intake I know that you can then use a Rochester 2g on it. What do you think?
Thanks Paul

scooder · 10-19-2015, 07:32 AM

Merc 8CM heads lower the compression ratio when fitted to a 3 3/4 stroke Ford. Not good.
Personally I wouldn't use any of those cams, I've driven an 88 And a max1, wad disappointed in both, on the street in normal use high compression heads win easy. Aftermarket cam plus stock compression ratio is not a good combination, a stock cam works better with stock heads. Aftermarket cam plus high compression works much better, on the street with normal use the high compression heads with stock cam is the best, pulls like an ox!
Get JWL's book, all this plus much more is explained and dyno tested for facts.
Martin.

GOSFAST · 10-19-2015, 08:02 AM

Hi Paul, not sure how "deep" you're going to get involved in the build or whether or not you're looking for some measurable power gains, but one of the most gains felt would be in the piston and ring pack area! A Ross style slug with a "metric" ring pack alone frees up some frictional HP.

Again, don't know how much change you are looking to make??

The weight of the ride also factors in choosing the "right" cam, lighter ride slightly more duration, heavier ride, slightly less. Have used a number of those "88" cams on strokers in heavier rides and all the customers have been extremely satisfied.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Compression doesn't come into play as much as having the entire "correct" components to match the C.R. you end up having!

Ol' Ron · 10-19-2015, 08:11 AM

Martin has it, L-100, Isky 1007B, Howard F-9 and a few others work well on the street with 8.5 Cr on regular gas. The Merc intake works well with the 2GC carb, but should be bored to match the throttle bores, to take advantage if increased flow. When you finish that, you'll have to change the distributor to one with a Mechanical advance as well as a Vacuum advance. Now you'll have power and economy all rolled up into one sweet sounding package.

Deuce Man · 10-19-2015, 11:49 AM

My 32 has an .080 over 50 merc motor, Max 1 cam, offy heads and two 97's, topped off by a Bubba's distributor. My friends say it pulls like a chevy. I dont know if that is a compliment or an insult? Rich

scooder · 10-19-2015, 01:11 PM

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Gary,
This metric ring package, do you really honestly think you'd feel a difference on the street with two identical flatheads one all stock the other all stock but with a metric ring pack??? Really?? Are you sure???
While these two above engines are drag racing or stop light racing, the third dude with a stock flathead but with a pair of high compression heads starts next to them and beats them by a country mile.
I'll tell a little tale here.
About 18 years ago, I built a Flathead powered T on an A frame, engine was 239 cube '39 Merc. Small bit of port work (just breaking sharp corners) fitted a CT L100 cam. Back then had a hell of a job finding out about this cam, I got it in a trade. Navarro dual with 94's, uncut 81A heads and a dual coil ignition. I thought it was pretty quick. After a while I fitted a pair of Navarro high compression planks, the difference was simply phenomenal!! Unbelievable! Actually a bit scary.
High compression is the best bang for buck for the seat of your pants.
Martin

scooder · 10-19-2015, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuce Man

My 32 has an .080 over 50 merc motor, Max 1 cam, offy heads and two 97's, topped off by a Bubba's distributor. My friends say it pulls like a chevy. I dont know if that is a compliment or an insult? Rich

I'd be insulated, put a 1007b in it and it'll pull better than a C word!
Martin.

alchemy · 10-19-2015, 01:21 PM

It's getting colder around here as well, so I'd like to be insulated too.

Deuce Man · 10-20-2015, 08:50 AM

I used to think cubic inches were the secret with flatheads. I bought a 39 sedan with a real strong running stock 221 inch motor. Only trouble was that around 3000 turns the motor sounded like a couple of pistons were trying to swap holes. I pulled it apart and found the block had a big crack that was jb welded, so much for that one. I had a real nice 59 a block, decided to build a 3 5/16x 4 flathead that was otherwise stock. figured it would have gobs of quiet, civilized pulling power. I worked on this thing for a year, never could get it to run as strong as my original 221 rattler. Now the 50 merc in my 32. thats a nice combination. Cant beat compression , cam, carburation and best of all, good ignition. Up north, insulation helps too. Rich

tenniesgrandpa · 10-24-2015, 11:29 PM

I'm going to stay with stock heads and intake for now. I'm not looking for a lot of power and rpm gains. Would rather just reliable stop light to stop light
toy with a nice sounding little lope that in the future "funding" I can upgrade intake and heads. I had it bored 60, crank turned. Have been advised on a max-1, and have seen others mention different grinds to have done and "where". Probably will use gm valves. So bottom line is looking for a cam that will be compatible now and a few things latter.
Thanks Paul

scooder · 10-25-2015, 04:57 AM

From your description of your engine the best cam is the stock cam. Sure you won't get the lope at idle, but you also won't be giving up a good bunch of torque at the engine rpm you'd be using.
The best and most noticeable bump in normal rpm range in an otherwise stock flathead is high compression heads.
If you think you must change the cam, the ones Ol Ron mentioned earlier are your cam choices. I'd like to try the 1007b or the 1007 which if I recall correctly, is a milder earlier grind.
These answers are from experience, I used to think that the cam is where I need to start, because that single item changes the whole performance curve, so it's gota be the thing to change. I was right in the fact it changes the whole performance curve, but at most normal street use the performance was less than the stock cam. That was a learning experience. The change that made the biggest difference was high compression heads.
And if your using the stock 49 ignition (loadamatic) in good working order, ie tested not just cleaned and painted, it works pretty well (as well as it can)with high compression heads, not as good as a converted gm centrifugal and vacuum advance type (with a corrected advance curve for the flathead). With a cam change, the loadamatic doesn't work very well, with multi carb intake, or non stock carb, the loadamatic is useless. And very important to you, that last bit. The loadamatic will NOT work with a Rochester 2GC. The carb must be compatible with the loadamatic, as in, it must have the correct vacuum source port on the carb.
Martin.

Tim Ayers · 10-25-2015, 10:22 AM

If going stock, the EAB cam would also be a good choice.

Ol' Ron · 10-25-2015, 11:00 AM

My present truck engine is a 280 CI "Stock" engine. It started life as a 276. L-100 cam and other goodies. After being stored out side for about 5 years, after I had to move my shop. I found the cylinder walls in pretty bad shape, so I found that Egge made .020,.030" over size 3 5/16 pistons with Metric rings. Because the engine was going to be used in the truck by the grand kids, I pulled the L-100 and installed an EAB cam and Milled E$AB heads, CR is now 8.2. The intake is a Merc bored for the 2GC carb and one of Richards converted points distributors. Rear axle is a 96 Jeep Cherokee Spicer 44, with 3.73 gears. Tarns in a Ford 3 spd with 36% OD.
The first ride was quite surprising, acceleration was very brisk, but the icing on the cake was the engine Torque in OD, pulling strong from 25 MPH up. And it sounds pretty good as well. I don't expect much HP from this engine, but I do expect economical operation. It will also be the test bed for the EFI system. Stay tuned.
I thank JWL for this.

scooder · 10-25-2015, 03:38 PM

Ron,
The changes you made to that 280 and the results of these changes, do concur it seems. Each proving each other's findings. Thems the best facts you can get.
Sounds like a cracking street engine.
Thanks for sharing.
Martin.

Ol' Ron · 10-25-2015, 06:47 PM

Never knew of anyone doing this before, and I hope to get it on the road very soon. Just driving around some of the back roads of Vermont before it's inspected. Then we'll really have more information on the build.

Deuce Man · 10-25-2015, 08:33 PM

I had a good buddy many years ago who was a former drag racer turned race parts manufacturer. While I was building one of my flatheads, My late friend asked me If I needed anything for my motor. I replied "yes I need a cam" my pal was very close to Richard Iskendarian, after talking to Richard my pal told me Richard felt that their 77b grind was their best all around street grind. Rich

tenniesgrandpa · 10-25-2015, 09:45 PM

Alright say it was just rebuilt stock and when I was ready then change heads. With being stock cam and 60 over what are pros and cons of Edelbrock and Offenhauser, and what models would make a good combination?
I know that the distributor would need to be changed before getting into intake and carb or carbs. Weather it be two or four barrel, or duel carb.
Thanks Paul

scooder · 10-26-2015, 02:56 AM

Paul,
I think the offy heads are a smidge better out of the box. Better combustion chamber shape. On yours I'd use the offy 400's, the offy has a lot more aluminium in it. Good thick casting.
Martin.

Ol' Ron · 10-26-2015, 08:51 AM

The only way to get an increase in Compression is to measure the volume of the chambers. Hi compression has a very shallow transfer area. Also in the Offy heads the number of the head can be miss leading. The 400 head won't clear an L-100 cam (.365 net lift. However as Martin saya they are very thick and you can clearance for this. My book has a chart for this, but remember to add 15cc's to the chamber volumn for the gasket.

10-19-2015, 02:15 AM	#1
tenniesgrandpa Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Altoona Pa. Posts: 15	Cam and Head differance How do isky max-1, 77, and 88 compare? Building a 49 for a project, not sure what it will be, thinking a trike. Other is heads, is there any difference between ford and merc heads? Thinking about using a merc intake I know that you can then use a Rochester 2g on it. What do you think? Thanks Paul

10-19-2015, 07:32 AM	#2
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Cam and Head differance Merc 8CM heads lower the compression ratio when fitted to a 3 3/4 stroke Ford. Not good. Personally I wouldn't use any of those cams, I've driven an 88 And a max1, wad disappointed in both, on the street in normal use high compression heads win easy. Aftermarket cam plus stock compression ratio is not a good combination, a stock cam works better with stock heads. Aftermarket cam plus high compression works much better, on the street with normal use the high compression heads with stock cam is the best, pulls like an ox! Get JWL's book, all this plus much more is explained and dyno tested for facts. Martin.

10-19-2015, 08:02 AM	#3
GOSFAST Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 1,052	Re: Cam and Head differance Hi Paul, not sure how "deep" you're going to get involved in the build or whether or not you're looking for some measurable power gains, but one of the most gains felt would be in the piston and ring pack area! A Ross style slug with a "metric" ring pack alone frees up some frictional HP. Again, don't know how much change you are looking to make?? The weight of the ride also factors in choosing the "right" cam, lighter ride slightly more duration, heavier ride, slightly less. Have used a number of those "88" cams on strokers in heavier rides and all the customers have been extremely satisfied. Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. Compression doesn't come into play as much as having the entire "correct" components to match the C.R. you end up having! __________________ http://www.stromberg-bulletin.com/me...berg-equipped/

10-19-2015, 08:11 AM	#4
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Cam and Head differance Martin has it, L-100, Isky 1007B, Howard F-9 and a few others work well on the street with 8.5 Cr on regular gas. The Merc intake works well with the 2GC carb, but should be bored to match the throttle bores, to take advantage if increased flow. When you finish that, you'll have to change the distributor to one with a Mechanical advance as well as a Vacuum advance. Now you'll have power and economy all rolled up into one sweet sounding package.

10-19-2015, 11:49 AM	#5
Deuce Man Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Palm City FL> Posts: 556	Re: Cam and Head differance My 32 has an .080 over 50 merc motor, Max 1 cam, offy heads and two 97's, topped off by a Bubba's distributor. My friends say it pulls like a chevy. I dont know if that is a compliment or an insult? Rich

10-19-2015, 01:11 PM	#6
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Cam and Head differance Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Gary, This metric ring package, do you really honestly think you'd feel a difference on the street with two identical flatheads one all stock the other all stock but with a metric ring pack??? Really?? Are you sure??? While these two above engines are drag racing or stop light racing, the third dude with a stock flathead but with a pair of high compression heads starts next to them and beats them by a country mile. I'll tell a little tale here. About 18 years ago, I built a Flathead powered T on an A frame, engine was 239 cube '39 Merc. Small bit of port work (just breaking sharp corners) fitted a CT L100 cam. Back then had a hell of a job finding out about this cam, I got it in a trade. Navarro dual with 94's, uncut 81A heads and a dual coil ignition. I thought it was pretty quick. After a while I fitted a pair of Navarro high compression planks, the difference was simply phenomenal!! Unbelievable! Actually a bit scary. High compression is the best bang for buck for the seat of your pants. Martin

10-19-2015, 01:21 PM	#8
alchemy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: middle of Iowa Posts: 647	Re: Cam and Head differance It's getting colder around here as well, so I'd like to be insulated too.

10-20-2015, 08:50 AM	#9
Deuce Man Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Palm City FL> Posts: 556	Re: Cam and Head differance I used to think cubic inches were the secret with flatheads. I bought a 39 sedan with a real strong running stock 221 inch motor. Only trouble was that around 3000 turns the motor sounded like a couple of pistons were trying to swap holes. I pulled it apart and found the block had a big crack that was jb welded, so much for that one. I had a real nice 59 a block, decided to build a 3 5/16x 4 flathead that was otherwise stock. figured it would have gobs of quiet, civilized pulling power. I worked on this thing for a year, never could get it to run as strong as my original 221 rattler. Now the 50 merc in my 32. thats a nice combination. Cant beat compression , cam, carburation and best of all, good ignition. Up north, insulation helps too. Rich

10-24-2015, 11:29 PM	#10
tenniesgrandpa Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Altoona Pa. Posts: 15	Re: Cam and Head differance I'm going to stay with stock heads and intake for now. I'm not looking for a lot of power and rpm gains. Would rather just reliable stop light to stop light toy with a nice sounding little lope that in the future "funding" I can upgrade intake and heads. I had it bored 60, crank turned. Have been advised on a max-1, and have seen others mention different grinds to have done and "where". Probably will use gm valves. So bottom line is looking for a cam that will be compatible now and a few things latter. Thanks Paul

10-25-2015, 04:57 AM	#11
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Cam and Head differance From your description of your engine the best cam is the stock cam. Sure you won't get the lope at idle, but you also won't be giving up a good bunch of torque at the engine rpm you'd be using. The best and most noticeable bump in normal rpm range in an otherwise stock flathead is high compression heads. If you think you must change the cam, the ones Ol Ron mentioned earlier are your cam choices. I'd like to try the 1007b or the 1007 which if I recall correctly, is a milder earlier grind. These answers are from experience, I used to think that the cam is where I need to start, because that single item changes the whole performance curve, so it's gota be the thing to change. I was right in the fact it changes the whole performance curve, but at most normal street use the performance was less than the stock cam. That was a learning experience. The change that made the biggest difference was high compression heads. And if your using the stock 49 ignition (loadamatic) in good working order, ie tested not just cleaned and painted, it works pretty well (as well as it can)with high compression heads, not as good as a converted gm centrifugal and vacuum advance type (with a corrected advance curve for the flathead). With a cam change, the loadamatic doesn't work very well, with multi carb intake, or non stock carb, the loadamatic is useless. And very important to you, that last bit. The loadamatic will NOT work with a Rochester 2GC. The carb must be compatible with the loadamatic, as in, it must have the correct vacuum source port on the carb. Martin.

10-25-2015, 10:22 AM	#12
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,181	Re: Cam and Head differance If going stock, the EAB cam would also be a good choice.

10-25-2015, 11:00 AM	#13
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Cam and Head differance My present truck engine is a 280 CI "Stock" engine. It started life as a 276. L-100 cam and other goodies. After being stored out side for about 5 years, after I had to move my shop. I found the cylinder walls in pretty bad shape, so I found that Egge made .020,.030" over size 3 5/16 pistons with Metric rings. Because the engine was going to be used in the truck by the grand kids, I pulled the L-100 and installed an EAB cam and Milled E$AB heads, CR is now 8.2. The intake is a Merc bored for the 2GC carb and one of Richards converted points distributors. Rear axle is a 96 Jeep Cherokee Spicer 44, with 3.73 gears. Tarns in a Ford 3 spd with 36% OD. The first ride was quite surprising, acceleration was very brisk, but the icing on the cake was the engine Torque in OD, pulling strong from 25 MPH up. And it sounds pretty good as well. I don't expect much HP from this engine, but I do expect economical operation. It will also be the test bed for the EFI system. Stay tuned. I thank JWL for this.

10-25-2015, 03:38 PM	#14
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Cam and Head differance Ron, The changes you made to that 280 and the results of these changes, do concur it seems. Each proving each other's findings. Thems the best facts you can get. Sounds like a cracking street engine. Thanks for sharing. Martin.

10-25-2015, 06:47 PM	#15
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Cam and Head differance Never knew of anyone doing this before, and I hope to get it on the road very soon. Just driving around some of the back roads of Vermont before it's inspected. Then we'll really have more information on the build.

10-25-2015, 08:33 PM	#16
Deuce Man Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Palm City FL> Posts: 556	Re: Cam and Head differance I had a good buddy many years ago who was a former drag racer turned race parts manufacturer. While I was building one of my flatheads, My late friend asked me If I needed anything for my motor. I replied "yes I need a cam" my pal was very close to Richard Iskendarian, after talking to Richard my pal told me Richard felt that their 77b grind was their best all around street grind. Rich

10-25-2015, 09:45 PM	#17
tenniesgrandpa Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Altoona Pa. Posts: 15	Re: Cam and Head differance Alright say it was just rebuilt stock and when I was ready then change heads. With being stock cam and 60 over what are pros and cons of Edelbrock and Offenhauser, and what models would make a good combination? I know that the distributor would need to be changed before getting into intake and carb or carbs. Weather it be two or four barrel, or duel carb. Thanks Paul

10-26-2015, 02:56 AM	#18
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Cam and Head differance Paul, I think the offy heads are a smidge better out of the box. Better combustion chamber shape. On yours I'd use the offy 400's, the offy has a lot more aluminium in it. Good thick casting. Martin.

10-26-2015, 08:51 AM	#19
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Cam and Head differance The only way to get an increase in Compression is to measure the volume of the chambers. Hi compression has a very shallow transfer area. Also in the Offy heads the number of the head can be miss leading. The 400 head won't clear an L-100 cam (.365 net lift. However as Martin saya they are very thick and you can clearance for this. My book has a chart for this, but remember to add 15cc's to the chamber volumn for the gasket.