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Old 02-21-2020, 04:02 PM   #1
Greg Jones
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Default Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

I rebuilt my transmission about a year ago or so using the hyatt roller bearings from the vendors. After a couple hundred miles the tranny has a grinding noise while idling in neutral. Having read Tom Endy's warning about inferior bearings that were on the market, I suspect that is what I installed.

So how can you tell a good bearing from an inferior one? I believe Tom mentioned that the roller should be riding on an "axle' or shaft of its own and the ends not riding in a crimped depression, or something like that. I have attached a picture of a new bearing obtained probably a couple years ago from Brattons, and pictures of bearings taken out of an original transmission. Notice the repro on the ends is markedly different.

Tom Endy, please help edify me as to the best bearing source and whether the repro I am showing is "good" or "bad." I want to redo this transmission only once.
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File Type: jpg DSC_0969sm.jpg (79.2 KB, 198 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0970sm.jpg (40.0 KB, 167 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0972sm.jpg (25.1 KB, 170 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0974sm.jpg (35.3 KB, 178 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0976sm.jpg (34.8 KB, 198 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0977sm.jpg (33.5 KB, 167 views)
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Old 02-21-2020, 04:48 PM   #2
Joe K
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

I will leave room for Tom to answer, but it is apparent the difference between your repop and your original is:

The repops (Hyatt?) have hollow "rollers" that turn on shafts captive in the retaining rings.

The original (Bower?) have solid "rollers" that have their ends "necked down" to match a hole/recess in the retaining ring.

Do I have this right?

Edit: I have now in my hand a set of bona-fide originals. They are marked "Hyatt" on the non-roller cage connectors (5 of these) and the rollers are hollow and "spiral" in Hyatt roller style. The rollers are space 3-2-2-2-2 as with your Bower bearing is above.

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Old 02-21-2020, 06:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

...
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

I should point out I welcome any input from anyone who has knowledge on the subject. The way I wrote the post makes it look like I only want input from Tom. Of course I want his input, but anyone else that has dealt with this feel free to provide input! Not trying to "exclude" anyone....
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Greg, your first photo is the style bearing that is not good. Your bottom middle photo is a good bearing. If you need some good old ones let me know. Steve
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

I will give you a call Steve.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

The attached photo shows what the poor quality bearing looks like. Most of the suppliers are now selling these. Bratton's immediately became aware that his long time supplier had slipped these bearing to him without telling him they were different. He returned them and refuses to sell them. Some of the suppliers may not be aware that they are selling the defective bearings.

Apparently whoever was making them went out of business and someone else is now making them.

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Old 02-21-2020, 09:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

I do not want to use the word impossible, but I do find it hard to believe that Ford Motor Company used Hyatt ball bearings. The Hyatt bearing company was for many years owned by General Motors Corp and I feel it doubtful if Ford would buy bearings from General Motors. We do know Ford used Timken bearings for some applications such as wheel bearings and I feel that further digging into transmission bearings might reveal the original transmission bearings to have another source.

A man now deceased for quite a few years was my friend after he retired as general manager of the Hyatt bearing plant and moved to Cape Cod from New Jersey. At age 58 years he had taken early retirement from management of Hyatt for General Motors, due too management stress that caused a major heart attack, followed by retirement from General Motors and moving to Cape Cod. He had been a Model T hobbyist for years, but on Cape Cod his hobby was his Model A Coupe, certainly unusual for a staunch GMC person.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Yes I got some from Brattons and Snyders sold them too. I am glad Bratton's purged these bearings. Interestingly, if you look at the photo of the bearing on both Bratton's and Bert's web sites, they look like the correctly made bearing. I will talk to Steve Becker at Bert's about it and I am sure he has a solution. Thing is, I drive my Model A quite a bit so I need reliability. Quite the pain to have to pull a transmission to change out a $10 bearing or two.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Barnstuf, my terminology may be in error calling these roller bearings "hyatt" bearings. The Model T crowd I used to hang around with called any roller bearing a "hyatt" bearing so my usage could indeed be incorrect. Best to call them "roller bearings" I reckon.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Um. Hyatt pioneered the spiral wound hollow "roller" bearing. Much favored for rear wheel bearings as the spring/rollers have some "give" to them.

Pix of a broken Model T wheel bearing.




Timken tended to be the Ford provider of tapered roller bearings. I see in pix of Hyatt bearings these are available from them too. A former nuclear engineer myself I would take anything Timken over almost anything else on the market. Nuclear grade bearings are the same as regular grade bearings except regular doesn't have the paperwork. Timken CAN provide nuclear paperwork for ANY bearing with their name - for a price.

Torrington provided small diameter solid roller (needle) bearings such as bearing used in the water pump fan/shaft. May have produced the needle bearings for the transmission too. When I do water pumps, I use the Torrington race pressed on the water pump shaft, a Torrington needle bearing, and the matching "cup" (actually a cylinder) that it turns in.

There were "cross-overs."

Also, given what I saw earlier is accurate, Greg's "Hyatt" (so claimed I don't see it marked) bearing in the original wrapper may be closest to the original Hyatt bearing I produced.

Bower bearing in my experience tended to be the "cheap alternative" and were one of the first bearings to be "foreign sourced" under an American name. Looking at your pix confirms this thought for me if indeed the ends of the rollers are turned down to match the holes in the retainer rings. I wouldn't use these even though you claim them original.

Go back to the one in the wrapper.

I'm not even sure anyone even makes a "Hyatt spiral type" bearing today.

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Old 02-23-2020, 09:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

A further investigation of this forum reveals this has been discussed repeatedly on the board.

I myself have contributed to the discussion previously. MANY numbers are given as interchange for the A7118 (short) and A7121 (long) needle type bearings. Timken has an interchange number http://www.bearingstocks.com/docs/Ma...ence_Guide.pdf showing on their "equivalents" chart which in all cases of A7118, A7121 type is Timken J241248 - but a search of their web-site does not include this number (go figure?) The same number is shown associated with Hyatt and provided by at least two other bearing manufacturers, so I might assume that Timken "subcontracted" their supply to other makers and carried the other maker in stock under their own number/box.

Above I give "original" status to a hollow spiral spring based Hyatt Bearing. This may or may not be true. It is marked Hyatt. Also, I have found on Ebay a reported Hyatt bearing in A7118 style with the original box from the period - but the bearing is NOT hollow spring based. It may be another bearing that someone put back into a Hyatt box. The seller reports it is Hyatt 99028 (which is on the box, originally 2 bearings - see dimensions of the box - of which he has already sold one.)

So I guess at this point your mileage (and bearings) may vary. LOTS of bearings "out there" in many manufacturers. I would look for one in the Hyatt "spiral spring" construction, but one made as "tubular rolls" and assembled with through-shafts is the near equivalent.

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Old 03-21-2020, 06:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Very interesting. You may have saved me some serious grief. For the good of all mankind, I was all set to quarantine myself in my garage today to finally assemble my transmission and then I stumbled onto this chain. Now I'm considering re-using my vintage roller bearings I had planned to replace. The trans operated just fine before disassembly. I only took it apart because I was replacing the engine and I wanted to know the status of the trans.

I replaced the cluster gear and 2/3 gear with quality used gears and had the tower rebuilt. Was gonna replace all bearings because as the guys in my club said, "It's cheap insurance." Now I'm feeling as though I should apply the theory of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The individual rollers of my new roller bearings measure up at .1875" The rollers of my used bearings (see attached) measure up at .1870", .186", and .1858", respectively. The best of those three happens to be a short bearing that has no "rifling" on the rollers. It's identified as Hyatt USA 89026 (maybe 99026). I figured I'd put that one between the input shaft and the main shaft. The two others both have "rifling" on the rollers. They are a little more worn but they'll be riding on a cluster gear shaft that's new. I'm guessing this is how the trans was configured before I took it apart. I don't remember and didn't take note because I had planned to replace them all.

Any thoughts? Seems like a better course than installing new junk bearings. Is it a mistake running the old bearings on a new shaft? The old shaft did have some wear...about .005" Are we sure that Bratton's is now selling a quality roller? I bought mine from one of their rivals. Thoughts appreciated.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Model A steve thanks for picking up this thread again. I needed a reminder to look for my old bearings. I rebuilt my tranny last year because of a cracked housing. I do remember the bearings were designed differently. So I suspect I have the new junk bearings.
Yes if I were you I would use the old bearings before using what we now know is junk.
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Quote:
Any thoughts?
When you install the cluster gear DON'T use the spacer between the short bearing (large end gear) and the long bearing (small end gear)

Instead choose three bearings that will fit the space. Leave the spacer out. I forget if this is two short and a long, or two long and a short. (I think the latter.)

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Old 03-21-2020, 10:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Thanks Joe
That's if we can find good bearings. The only good bearings I have is the one's I replaced, if I still have them.
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Old 03-22-2020, 12:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

See attached article.

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Old 03-22-2020, 06:02 AM   #18
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

I rebuilt a transmission a few months ago with new bearings. Should I take it apart again?

Also, can these bearings work if you file the protrusions flat?
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Old 03-22-2020, 10:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Henry Ford was purchasing Hyatt roller bearings before Durant decided to buy out the company. Ford likely knew Alfred Sloan before he became a part of GM due to this. As long as the manufacturer made parts for an agreeable price then Henry didn't care where they came from. He didn't like paying for licencing of a product but he would buy products outright. Ford used these type bearings in transmission, drive shaft, and rear wheel applications clear up to at least 1948. On transmissions, they changed over to loose roller bearings instead of caged ones except for light duty pickup transmission. They used the caged roller for the counter shaft till 1950 when the design finally changed.

New Departure/Hyatt stopped production of bearings in 1993. Too much competition I guess. Mac VanPelt would likely be a good one to ask about these type of bearings.

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Old 03-22-2020, 12:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Tom Endy: Transmission Bearings (Hyatt style)

Check that the endplates are hardened, a quick swipe with a file will make it obvious. Compare to an old one if necessary. If the endplates aren't hardened the bearings can come apart very quickly.
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