automatic transmission oil

[56yblock]

hello guys , i have a question for a friend, he don't know what of kind automatic transmission oil to put for his 1956 lincoln premiere,
what you put in yours ?

[KULTULZ]

Read This - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic155358.aspx

[rotorwrench]

While most transmissions can get away with using basic Dexron type mineral ATF, Ford designed a replacement fluid in the late 60s to work with all the old all metallic plate type Borg Warner design clutch plates used from 1951 thru the early 1970s. This Type-F ATF is recommended for all the old Ford, Edsel, Mercury, and Lincoln automatic transmission for the 50s & 60s cars and some late 60s earl 70s cars. The Ford C6 transmission designed in the mid to late 60s was the first to use clutch plates that they required a new type ATF.

The trans may work fine with a Dexron type ATF but if any slippage at all is noted, the type F should be used. The metallic clutches will fail if they slip too much. Keep in mind that slippage can also be caused by internal leaks of fluid pressure. If that's the case then no ATF will fix it.

[56yblock]

thanks for your answer, if i understand, the best what you use is atf type f for old automatic gearbox ford, lincoln, and mercury

[Daves55Sedan]

Lincoln used the heavy case cast iron "Ford-O-Matic" and it operates under same principles as the small and medium case transmissions which used type "A" fluid. It's mostly no longer available by has been replaced with Dexron/Mercon fluid.
I suggest checking owners manual. If it says use type "A" fluid, use Dexron/Mercon. It should shift smooth for him and there should be little/no slippage unless trans has a problem. Fluid can be used with the original type brass clutch plates or the composite type clutch plates found in rebuild kits today with no problem.
Type "F" fluid in a Ford-O-Matic can cause hard shifting and it has fewer lubricating properties than Dexron.

[KULTULZ]

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This Type-F ATF is recommended for all the old Ford, Edsel, Mercury, and Lincoln automatic transmission for the 50s & 60s cars and some late 60s earl 70s cars. The Ford C6 transmission designed in the mid to late 60s was the first to use clutch plates that they required a new type ATF.

Where does this 'recommendation' come from exactly?

POST #2 has the Referring URL corrected. It describes all lubricants and uses.

FORD used GM fluid until 1959 when it began to formulate its own. TYPE F was introduced for the 1968 model run.

TYPE F can be used in an early DEXRON trans (firmer shifts - same lubrication/cleaners). DEXRON cannot be used in an origional TYPE F trans.

[Alaska Jim]

I buy type "F" at O Reilly's auto parts. It is their brand, but it is the only local place that has it.

[rotorwrench]

Type F was a Ford recommendation for all of the current and earlier metallic plate units. It was developed after the moratorium was known to be coming to ban the use of whale oil in ATF blending. Type A and B had whale oil as a friction modifier & lubricant until the moratorium. GM transmissions worked fine with the Dexron type B ATF for a while that was developed to replace the older type A. Dexron was reblended after the whale oil was no longer usable.

The problem was always with the friction modifiers needed for the old Borg Warner designs and the heat developed during operation. This link shows what Motorcraft has to say about it.
https://www.motorcraft.com/us/en_us/...ng-fluids.html

[KULTULZ]

TYPE-F is not the correct replacement for TYPE-A, TYPE-A SUFFIX-A or any derivative(s) of GM DEXRONS that FORD also used/formulated prior to the 1968 model year.

[delco1946]

Dumb question but can you mix the two to get some properties of both?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by delco1946

Dumb question but can you mix the two to get some properties of both?

Not a dumb question. The only dumb question was my asking my little thumbscrew to marry me.

There would be no reason to mix, actually they would have to be blended together. It's simple. If you have an older trans that had a call out for TYPE-A and its successors, MERCON V is the latest formulation. If you have a trans that calls for TYPE-F, you can only use TYPE-F unless the trans was rebuilt with different friction materials.

If you have a DEXRON/MERCON trans that you want firmer shifts, you would flush and fill with TYPE-F.

Does anyone remember TRICK-SHIFT FLUID, It was basically TYPE-F to firm a DEXRON trans for street/strip (slip and slide with POWER-GLIDE?).

You cannot go by lube charts of the fifties. Too much has changed. TYPE-F was used from 1968 to approx 1980 for TRANS and then afterwards for some PS call-outs.


DEXRON (GM) and MERCON (FORD) are marketing names. Some early fluids were the same formulation and some later were not. You have to check the specs.

[rotorwrench]

Type A and B no longer exist in their original form since the whale oil (a natural ester) was removed. Modern synthetic ester based ATFs will likely work in any transmission that has seals installed to take ester based synthetics. Older transmissions with the steel and bronze clutch plates really should have a friction modifier that will insure a solid pinch up during shifts. Even a little bit of slippage over time will degrade the surfaces of the clutch plates. If modern type composite friction plates are used during an overhaul then modern ATFs would be fine. I just don't know what sort of plates are currently available for all of the old Borg Warner designs such as the Ford/Merc-O-Matic, Cruise-O-Matic, and Lincoln type transmissions. Performance transmissions work well with Type F due to the friction modifiers used but they would only be effective if the transmission has all new clutches installed. Type F can take the heat relatively well too but not as good as the whale oil could. I would NOT mix any ATF with any other and I'm not a big fan of additives for ATF mixing either. If a transmission has a problem, different ATFs or additives won't fix it.

[KULTULZ]

THE REVENGE of MOBY DICK

(It's all OK blacktie55 - Not A Sex Joke - Take It Easy)

Automatic transmissions ran smoothly and reliably using whale oil in lubricating fluids, as long as engine coolant temperatures ran below 173 degrees F. Fortunately for the whales, by the 1970s engines became subject to tighter emissions regulations and engineers had to design them to run hotter. Other demands such as front-wheel-drive and ever-increased emissions limits boosted the operating temperatures of engines to well over 200 degrees F, forcing research efforts into synthetic lubricants and rendering the use of whale oil (really an esther, not an oil) obsolete.

The Endangered Species Act of 1972, followed by an "indefinite moratorium" set in 1986 protects those whales remaining. Only the Japanese and Norwegians still kill whales for meat. While our society now looks at this senseless killing as; well, senseless and selfish, think of how you might have felt about driving a 50s or 60s-era car with an automatic transmission or locking differential if you had known that large numbers of whales had to die for your convenience. It isn't a pretty story, is it?

INFO SOURCE - http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/725.cfm

So whale oil (or lack thereof) is not a factor in modern lubricant.

[KULTULZ]

Another Subject Related Caviar ...

WHALE OIL BAN -

So what was the result? At least 5,500 automatic transmissions failed prematurely in cars built between 1973 and 1975. Corroding solder joints in the transmission cooling system allowed antifreeze and transmission fluid to mix, with unfortunate results. In news stories at the time, General Motors, maker of the cars with the defective trannies, blamed the problem on the lack of whale oil. The implication: it wasn’t the fault of GM, but rather those meddlesome conservationists.

If you read the news accounts carefully, however, you notice that it wasn’t GM automatic transmissions across the board that failed, but rather two specific types, the Turbo Hydra-matic 350 and 400 series gearboxes. The bad transmissions accounted for one-sixth of one percent of these units installed in GM vehicles at the time. We scoured the technical literature and the frequency-of-repair survey results in Consumer Reports for signs of an industry wide spike in automatic transmission failures in the mid-1970s. Nothing.

From this we deduce that while the absence of whale oil perhaps didn’t help, the real issue was a defect in GM’s transmission design. Be that as it may, GM reformulated the solder and switched transmission fluids, and the problem went away.

INFO SOURCE - https://www.straightdope.com/2134408...with-whale-oil

BTW - I like my caviar soft boiled ...

[40 Deluxe]

If you can't find Type F fluid, just grab some B&M Trick Shift fluid. The fine print says it "meets Type F specifications". And, since the racer guys use it, the "lubricating qualities" should be just fine.

[KULTULZ]

The fine print says it "meets Type F specifications"

Unless the container label has MEETING FORD SPEC ESW-M2C33-F, it is a crap-shoot as to whether a product is as claimed. Same with the DEXRON-MERCON applications.

TRICK-SHIFT is meant for a performance type car or racing vehicle, not everyday use. MOTORCRAFT TYPE-F is freely available. Premium aftermarket refiners have to show that SPEC or you have no idea what is in the bottle.

Same with NAPA TYPE-FA. What the heck is that?

[delco1946]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Not a dumb question. The only dumb question was my asking my little thumbscrew to marry me.

There would be no reason to mix, actually they would have to be blended together. It's simple. If you have an older trans that had a call out for TYPE-A and its successors, MERCON V is the latest formulation. If you have a trans that calls for TYPE-F, you can only use TYPE-F unless the trans was rebuilt with different friction materials.

If you have a DEXRON/MERCON trans that you want firmer shifts, you would flush and fill with TYPE-F.

I guess i'm asking for those of us who might be lazy and/or hypothesis development. What if I didn't want to drain my converter (leaving quarts of a different type in the system)? What if I wanted slighter firmer shifts without going full Type-F firm. What if I don't know what's in my car and start topping off with the type I want if its a bit low on fluid? Etc etc.

It's evident on this forum that plenty of people are using Dexron OR Type F and no-one seems to have any troubles with either.

So scientifically, is there any reason why blending them is not a possibility? I would assume that blending different types would be like blending water and alcohol, 100% miscible. The primary constituent being the one that governs primary friction modifier behavior.

OR are they immiscible or do they somehow react with each other leading to disastrous results?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by delco1946

I guess i'm asking for those of us who might be lazy and/or hypothesis development. What if I didn't want to drain my converter (leaving quarts of a different type in the system)?

What if I wanted slighter firmer shifts without going full Type-F firm. What if I don't know what's in my car and start topping off with the type I want if its a bit low on fluid? Etc etc.

It's evident on this forum that plenty of people are using Dexron OR Type F and no-one seems to have any troubles with either.

So scientifically, is there any reason why blending them is not a possibility? I would assume that blending different types would be like blending water and alcohol, 100% miscible. The primary constituent being the one that governs primary friction modifier behavior.

OR are they immiscible or do they somehow react with each other leading to disastrous results?

You have some fancy college education there throwing all of those big words around ...

I think you are implying mixing rather than blend. Blend is done at the refinery. Mix is adding one type to another (or an additive).

Simply put, if you have trans that originally was built for TYPE-F (anywhere from 1968 to 1980, you [b]cannot add DEXRON/MERCON). The difference is the type of friction materials used in the TYPE-F trans (you need to check original OWNERS MANUAL to find the correct call out for your model).

If a TYPE-F trans was later rebuilt using a later organic friction material, you would/could use a DEXRON/MERCON product, unless you wanted the firmer shift.

If you want a firmer shift in a TYPE-A/DEXRON/MERCON built trans, you would use TYPE-F. It can be added with just a pan drop but actually, it would be better to flush the complete system. Either way.

What you cannot do is use/add DEXRON/MERCON in a TYPE-F built trans. Now FORD said if you were out and only DEXRON was available one or two quarts should not hurt it.

Do you want a firmer performance shift or do you want a street cruiser? If one had a 58/ BIRD or LINC, I assume they would want a soft/quiet shift.



Now all of this pertains up to 1980 only as ATF became much more complicated. We are talking FORD/GM only.


If your trans is in fairly good shape, adding TYPE-F should not hurt it (IMO).

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by delco1946

I guess i'm asking for those of us who might be lazy and/or hypothesis development. What if I didn't want to drain my converter (leaving quarts of a different type in the system)?


What if I wanted slighter firmer shifts without going full Type-F firm. What if I don't know what's in my car and start topping off with the type I want if its a bit low on fluid? Etc etc.

It's evident on this forum that plenty of people are using Dexron OR Type F and no-one seems to have any troubles with either.

So scientifically, is there any reason why blending them is not a possibility? I would assume that blending different types would be like blending water and alcohol, 100% miscible. The primary constituent being the one that governs primary friction modifier behavior.

OR are they immiscible or do they somehow react with each other leading to disastrous results?

You have some fancy college education there throwing all of those big words around ...


I think you are implying mixing rather than blend. Blend is done at the refinery. Mix is adding one type to another (or an additive).


Simply put, if you have a trans that originally was built for TYPE-F (anywhere from 1968 to 1980, you [b]cannot add DEXRON/MERCON). The difference is the type of friction materials used in the TYPE-F trans (you need to check original OWNERS MANUAL to find the correct call out for your model).


If a TYPE-F trans was later rebuilt using a later organic friction material, you would/could use a DEXRON/MERCON product, unless you wanted the firmer shift.


If you want a firmer shift in a TYPE-A/DEXRON/MERCON built trans, you would use TYPE-F. It can be added with just a pan drop but actually, it would be better to flush the complete system. Either way.


What you cannot do is use/add DEXRON/MERCON in a TYPE-F built trans. Now FORD said if you were out and only DEXRON was available one or two quarts should not hurt it.


Do you want a firmer performance shift or do you want a street cruiser? If one had a 58/ BIRD or LINC, I assume they would want a soft/quiet shift.



Now all of this pertains up to 1980 only as ATF became much more complicated. We are talking FORD/GM only.


If your trans is in fairly good shape, adding TYPE-F should not hurt it (IMO).

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by delco1946

I guess i'm asking for those of us who might be lazy and/or hypothesis development. What if I didn't want to drain my converter (leaving quarts of a different type in the system)? What if I wanted slighter firmer shifts without going full Type-F firm. What if I don't know what's in my car and start topping off with the type I want if its a bit low on fluid? Etc etc.

It's evident on this forum that plenty of people are using Dexron OR Type F and no-one seems to have any troubles with either.

So scientifically, is there any reason why blending them is not a possibility? I would assume that blending different types would be like blending water and alcohol, 100% miscible. The primary constituent being the one that governs primary friction modifier behavior.

OR are they immiscible or do they somehow react with each other leading to disastrous results?

Here is a statement from B&M -

Trick Shift was originally developed by B&M for racing applications.

It's become so successful that it's the most popular high performance fluid on the street also! Not an additive, this is the best performance ATF available! A scientific blend of foam inhibitors, pressure agents and shift modifiers that will provide extended transmission life and drastically improved shift feel.

Trick Shift is the easiest way to measurably improve the transmission performance of your vehicle. Trick Shift works with all automatic transmissions when a firmer shift is desired. Pour in Performance is not just a catchy phrase - it's reality! It can be mixed with stock-type transmission fluids, however to attain maximum improvement you should use Trick Shift exclusively.

Ideal for towing, light trucks and RV applications as well as racing. Not recommended for electronic controlled transmissions.

So, they can be mixed. The problem is that you will most likely not get the full effect you are seeking. So this (IMO) applies to FORD TYPE - F also.

It would be best (IMO) for a full flush or just a pan drop, but what you are describing is plausible (Again - IMO)

BTW - We must forget the usage of the word DEXRON as it causes too much confusion. I am guilty of this.