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Old 04-28-2021, 10:22 AM   #1
Neshkoro
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Default Engine question

All you purists, please forgive me.
Here’s the question.
What later model engine will bolt up to the Model A
Bell housing with minimal machine work? 4 cylinder or V-6..
I was hoping to keep the rest of the original drive train.
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:29 AM   #2
Dave in MN
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Default Re: Engine question

The latest model: The Burtz engine. See recent active thread.
Good Day!
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: Engine question

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Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
The latest model: The Burtz engine. See recent active thread.
Good Day!
Great answer!!
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Engine question

My first choice, by a long way, would be a properly rebuilt Model A engine. Maybe with a little MILD speed equipment if you wanted a LITTLE more power.

My second choice would be a ’32-’34 4 cylinder Ford engine. The Burtz engine others have mentioned sounds interesting. Probably not new enough for you.

The third choice is probably the Ford Pinto engine that was used as a common conversion in the seventies. I never liked the way they looked or performed and wouldn’t go this route although it does meet your requirements. Search the archives for comments.

The forth choice would be the 153 cubic inch Chevy II engine or better yet the 181 cubic inch industrial version currently in production. This engine was also used in Mercruiser Marine conversions. This is the engine I have in my ’32 Ford (see photo). It has the same bolt pattern on the back of the block as a small block Chevy V8 and a standard speed shop (or swap meet or wanted ad) adapter will get it connected to a ’32-’39 Ford transmission. Note the ’39 has the best syncros. The ’32-’39 transmission will bolt up to the rear end without cutting. You are going to need to fabricate brackets for the brake (I recommend strongly hydraulic) and clutch pedals. Everything clears and no chassis cutting is required.

You might also post your question on HAMB, https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/

Charlie Stephens
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Engine question

Thanks Charlie.
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
The latest model: The Burtz engine. See recent active thread.
Good Day!
Yeah but I don't think ya can get one, and I can never get an answer on how much $ ?
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Engine question

Charlie, I like what you did but dang thats a ton of work, and changes. Heck If he does that he might as well go with a Buick V-6, and the turbo 200 automatic trans.
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Old 04-28-2021, 05:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: Engine question

The Burtz engine is not hard to get. Go to his website and signup and you'll probably have your engine by October. Price is $3900.00 plus taxes and shipping from west coast.
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Engine question

Al, so the $3.900 is an improved, and machined block only?
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Engine question

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Al, so the $3.900 is an improved, and machined block only?
No. That gets you not only the fully machined 5 main bearing block but the new crankshaft and con rods as well along with a few bits and pieces like thrust faces for the crank end play. These motors will be capable of better performance for much longer than the original
IMO, by the time you start from scratch rebuilding a 90 something year old block with re-bore, repour and machine the bearings, sleeve the cam shaft tunnel etc, you have spent not far short of that anyway and you've still only got 3 main bearings and 90+ years of fatigue in the crank and rods. Money well spent in my book.
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Old 04-29-2021, 03:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: Engine question

I have a new Burtz Block Kit. I can’t say enough how much better it is than rebuilding an old engine. There is no way I would throw the money away on an old Original Model A engine. This engine has a lot of modern features internally, but retains the appearance of an original Model A engine. It has pressure lube oil system, redesigned rear main crankshaft seal one piece. Original Model A parts can be used in it as well as external parts such as camshaft, lifters, gears, valves, cylinder head, water pump and a lot more, and it bolts right up to your Model A transmission. There will be a Burtz Block Kit at Oshkosh, WI, the MARC Convention as well as at least one Model A car toured to the convention with a Burtz Block.
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Old 04-29-2021, 08:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: Engine question

This question is for someone who has a running Burtz engine. What is the cost to get to a running Burtz engine ready for installation into a Model "A"?
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: Engine question

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
No. That gets you not only the fully machined 5 main bearing block but the new crankshaft and con rods as well along with a few bits and pieces like thrust faces for the crank end play. These motors will be capable of better performance for much longer than the original
IMO, by the time you start from scratch rebuilding a 90 something year old block with re-bore, repour and machine the bearings, sleeve the cam shaft tunnel etc, you have spent not far short of that anyway and you've still only got 3 main bearings and 90+ years of fatigue in the crank and rods. Money well spent in my book.
The $3,900 includes the optional lightened flywheel.

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Old 04-29-2021, 12:22 PM   #14
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The $3,900 includes the optional lightened flywheel.

David Serrano

Don't think so.

Block Kits are New fully machined 5-Main block, Crankshaft, Connecting Rods ($3950 each + tax + shipping)

Flywheels are New, fully machined 30lb ($350 each + tax + shipping)
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Engine question

Off topic but in the 60's I pulled the Olds V8 from my 32 and put in a 4 cyl Pontiac Tempest with 4 bbl carb and taxi clutch.
Paul in CT


After a few years put the Olds back in.
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:35 PM   #16
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Don't think so.

Block Kits are New fully machined 5-Main block, Crankshaft, Connecting Rods ($3950 each + tax + shipping)

Flywheels are New, fully machined 30lb ($350 each + tax + shipping)
Bob,

The form I filled out indicates $3,500 for the block kit plus $300 for the fully machined 30 lb. flywheel, or $3,800 plus tax and shipping for the next shipment in August (?). It was stated that prices would be adjusted after the first two shipments.

Not sure where the $3,900 Figure came from but I don’t want to quibble about $50 or $100. Your figures may be for the next shipment after August.

In either case, it’s a great deal.

David Serrano

Last edited by California Travieso; 04-29-2021 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Engine question

Hello, the Burtz block doesn’t sound that bad at $3900. Trying to get a machine shop to work on older engines is somewhat problematic and you don’t know how long and and good things will turn out. At least with the Burtz all machining is done, apparently mostly an assembly job.If I find issues with the engine in my roadster will be the route I will go.
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Old 04-29-2021, 02:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Engine question

Quote:
Originally Posted by California Travieso View Post
Bob,

The form I filled out indicates $3,500 for the block kit plus $300 for the fully machined 30 lb. flywheel, or $3,800 plus tax and shipping for the next shipment in August (?). It was stated that prices would be adjusted after the first two shipments.

Not sure where the $3,900 Figure came from but I don’t want to quibble about $50 or $100. Your figures may be for the next shipment after August.

In either case, it’s a great deal.

David Serrano
The costs you state above were the introductory amounts if you ordered an engine kit or flywheel before the end of March, 2021.

The current cost is as stated below: (Copied the info from the order sheet)

Block Kits are New fully machined 5-Main block, Crankshaft, Connecting Rods ($3950 each + tax + shipping)

Flywheels are New, fully machined 30lb ($350 each + tax + shipping)


I have my kit assembled and am waiting for some external parts to finish it. It went together great.
Good Day!

Last edited by Dave in MN; 04-29-2021 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 04-29-2021, 03:05 PM   #19
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Charlie, I like what you did but dang thats a ton of work, and changes. Heck If he does that he might as well go with a Buick V-6, and the turbo 200 automatic trans.
It really not that much work but admittedly easier yet with a ’32 like I have. You get the 4 cylinder Chevy engine and adapt it to a ’32-39 Ford V8 trans using off the shelf parts from a speed shop. The rear of the 4 banger is the same as the V8 Chevy so everything is available. With a model A you need to fabricate pedal mounts and a wishbone mount (these mount to the frame on a ’32). The early Ford V8 trans will bolt to the original rear end. Everything clears. I ended up drilling four 3/8 holes in my frame for the front motor mounts, no other original parts were changed. The original rear end is strong enough that it can be used.

Relative to your suggestion of a Buick V6 and an automatic. I like the look of a 4 banger in a Model A, the V6 just doesn’t look right to me. From an esthetic standpoint I would rather see a flathead or a Chevy V8 before the V6. You might note mine is even painted Ford engine green. I don’t like the automatic in a Model A unless there is a medical reason. The V6 would require an open drive rear and traction bars to support it. Then you would have to figure out how to mount the original wire wheels on the open drive rear end, it is probably possible.

But as I said in my first post, my first choice would be to rebuild the original Model A engine.

Charlie Stephens
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Old 04-29-2021, 03:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde View Post
This question is for someone who has a running Burtz engine. What is the cost to get to a running Burtz engine ready for installation into a Model "A"?
Bob,
There are lots of variables as to the parts you use and how comfortable you are with doing some or all of the assembly yourself.

I build engines and I currently have a Burtz kit in my shop 90% assembled. I am waiting on some parts to finish it. I ran through the cost of a recent engine build where the owner needed a replacement block and I supplied him with a crack free block for $300.00. The finished engine was a running longblock and the cost included running it on a dyno for three hours to break it in, verify no leaks and heat cycle it three times and re-torque the head each time.

I took the itemized list of parts needed for this original engine rebuild and I added a column for the costs associated with building up a Burtz engine.
The cost difference in this illustration was between $2350.00 and 2650.00 more for the Burtz engine.

If I were to compare it to an original A engine modified for full oil pressure, the cost would be between $1150 and $1450 additional for the Burtz block.

If you were capable of doing all the assembly yourself you could have a Burtz engine for under $5,500.00 That's a bargain for what you are getting. Having almost completed the assembly of one Burtz engine, it appears the time is about equal to what it takes to assemble an insert bearing converted original engine.

I left the cost of shipping from California to the buyers location out of all the calculations as it is going to be different depending on your location. If you shipped an original engine to a shop to have it rebuilt, you would have that cost anyway. The shipping of the kit was about $215 to Minnesota.

Comparing an original engine modified for oil pressure to a Burtz kit is like comparing apples to grapefruit. Not even close to each other. (FYI: That's further apart than apples to oranges!)

I have attached a PDF of the spreadsheet if you are interested.

Good Day!
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Last edited by Dave in MN; 04-30-2021 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Add spreadsheet
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