Robertson screwdriver ????

[Karl]

This is one for those with Canadian assembled (ie with Robertson Screws)
I was once told by someone that the original toolkit for Canadian assembled A's contained not a flathead screwdriver but a Robertson screwdriver. Although this would be logical after years of looking through old tool lots I have never ever found a Robertson screwdriver that looks anything like the flat head Ford screwdriver. Given that all the cars that came to this country were ex Canada and there were lots imported I can't believe that all the screwdrivers have been lost. Can any one confirm or deny the presence of a Robertson screwdriver in the original Canadian A Toolkit ? Karl

[dave in australia]

My dad picked up over 30 model A's from various sources, generaly farms, in the 1960's and not one had a robertson screwdriver in the tool kit. Most did not have a tool kit but the ones that did had a flat blade screwdriver.

[Bick in New Zealand]

In 40 years of being involved with Model A's the vast majority being ex Canada I have only ever seen one original Robertson screwdriver. It is my belief that they were probably only supplied to the trade for use when making repairs. Of interest, none of the original parts books I have from Canada, New Zealand, and Australia picture or list a screwdriver in the tool section. I have been shown several screwdrivers, from original cars and they were nothing like the screwdriver commonly associated with the Model A.

[Karl]

Thanks Bick that's what I figured. So I guess that your flat bladed screwdriver wasn't much use to you on the side of the road when your Robertson screw had vibrated out .LOL

[HoarseWhisperer]

I have a Canadian Roadster, along with the original tool kit (some with Canada script), which only contains the slotted screw driver.

There are various size Robertson square drive screws (#2, #3, #4) on the Canadian bodies, so you would need at least three drivers in the kit.

The only place the #4 size are used is the lower stanchions. I recall searching the hardware stores for this size to no avail. Finally had to order a #4 bit from the Robertson Company.

Short read on Peter Robertson and Henry Ford at the following link:

http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ont...son_screws.htm

[Roadster62]

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Never knew about a Robertson screw, had to Google it. A photo of one in a Model A sure would be nice.

[HoarseWhisperer]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

Never knew about a Robertson screw, had to Google it. A photo of one in a Model A sure would be nice.

Here you go. These are the lower stanchion #4 robertson screws.

Simple square drive that don't slip or strip. I really prefer these screws and I never heard of them until I arrived in Canada.

[Dennis/CT]

I'm in the middle of rebuilding my generator and it has the Robertson screws holding the fields in place.

[Robert Putnam]

We Canadians are rather proud of our Robertson screws... along with the numbered sizes as mentioned, the drivers are also identified as to size by the colour of their handle. Yellow being the smallest, then green, red and black. The screws are a whole lot less likely to cause grief as they are much less prone to wear as slotted head ones. The only failure I have expirienced from a new Robertson screw is twisting off the head due to over torquing. Now when that square hole becames damaged due to the ravages of time and rust in an 80 year old Model A , you will find that as the square driver is inserted and torque applied, the square hole has a tendency to become rounded as the driver spins in a rusty worn hole, thus leaving the screw firmly in place..... If this screw were holding an important part such as a stauntion and you wanted to remove it. No problem. as the screw is now convienently centerpunched as you will, to recieve your drill bit to drill it out. I'm not sure if they even carry slotted head screws in the hardware stores up here. If you ask for a box of screws they're going to give you Robertsons and no I have never seen an original Canadian Model A issue Robertson screw driver !

[Bruce Lancaster]

Were Robertson's used on any mechanical parts, or just body and trim? My impression is that the mechanical bits remained slot-headed...toolkit was oriented toward minor service by owner.
I don't think the square type heads in generator fields are actuallt Robertson...they are just a generic square drive, and are actually too shallow to be really serviceable with hand tools. Thet really require either violence or a bit held in some sort of press with fields supported by a pole jack.

[Bick in New Zealand]

They appared in a variety of other places... field coils on early starter, button head screws holding the cutout, back of terminal box, radiator shell to radiator, and floorboards to name some. I have also noticed combinations eg Roberson and slotted on the same body for the same purpose eg door hinges , and male dovetails.

[Mustang]

Robertson drivers are sized by both the bit size and the screw size.

Size - - Color - - Fits these screws
00 ----- orange - #1, #2
0 ------ yellow -- #3, #4
1 ------ green --- #5, #6, #7
2 ------ red ------#8, #10
3 ------ black ----#12, #14
4 ------ black ----#16 and larger

And as to who the inventor was, I’ll let you decide based on the following.

I would hate to be the one responsible for the possible dethroning of
P.L. Robertson as the Canadian inventor of the square recess used to
drive wood screws, but I have stumbled across a patent in the USPTO
for the same basic design, but some 32 years earlier.
The United States Patent Office has Patent Nbrs. 161390 and RE6729 issued to
Allan Cummings of New York City, and assigned to The New York Screw Co,
with issue and reissue dates of March 30, 1875 and November 9, 1875.
The Cummings patents had expired before Robertson filed for his, and
only Peter Robinson knows if he was aware of them before he “invented” and
patented his concept. At any rate he was the first to successfully manufacture
and market the results of what would become a Canadian standard.

To simplify viewing of the patents in question, here are the links.

Robertson Patent
Patent number: 975285
Filing date: Oct 24, 1907
Issue date: Nov 8, 1910
http://tinyurl.com/2ff7p3h

Original Cummings Patent
Patent number: 161390
Filing date: Feb 15, 1875
Issue date: Mar 30, 1875
http://tinyurl.com/26umcwc

Reissued Cummings Patent
Patent number: RE6729
Filing date: Aug 4, 1776
Issue date: Nov 9, 1875
http://tinyurl.com/2fy4o6w

Regards
Art

[Tudortomnz]

I have 4 Model A original Parts books in front of me now pertinent to Ford Canada.
One has a picture of the screwdriver but does not list it. The 1934 Parts Book lists it for 1928-34 but no other book [NZ & Australia] that I have has it.
I have seen a few original Canadian toolkits but none contained a screwdriver. I do not believe a Robertson 'driver ever came with Canadian cars, as why would owners need to fiddle with trim & body screws on a near new car? Actually it is quite possible that a screwdriver was not always supplied in Canada, or that it is different to US one. The one shown on Bicks post may well be Canadian type,or possibly an odd one put in by owner because none supplied? The Handbook did show a screwdriver for tightening the waterpump packing nut.
Bearing that Ford Canada supplied a different style toolbag, 'T' style tyre lever & other Canadian manufactured tool items, I would not be surprised if items were ommited or different to US toolkit. A very old Robertson 'driver would look great in a Model A toolkit & would cause some confusion for 'experts'.!

[Bruce Lancaster]

I went through my various Canadian ones...have some NZ and Australian books around, didn't check them yet. The various A and B ones just give same PN as USA, with the A prefix noted as changed to B for 1932. I too think the screwdriver was intended for minor maintenance and would have been meant for screws on distributor, tail lights, etc.
Bick's general type of screwdriver with monolithic steel structure, probably forged, and wood scales is moderately common here in US and in German imports...there were several makers, and I think you can still get new ones from woodworker sources. It was a high-end screwdriver, obviously more expensive to make than the common kind, and so I think an unlikely choice for the tool kit.
Any of you Imperial types have the AF--BF export tire pump?? I'd love to see one or learn dimensions. I have what looks like a proper A tirepump that ate too many cheeseburgers, and wonder if it could be the export one...

[Bick in New Zealand]

A reasonably common tire pump found here is identical to an 'A' one but has a cast base wih Made in England. It was used on the Ford Y, 8hp, Anglias etc.

Photo courtesy Paul Smith

[Tudortomnz]

Yes, amongst my tool items are some of the 'AF 17052' tyre pumps. Diameter is 1 1/2" plus stamped foot is 4 3/4" by 1 3/4". Do not know why more robust type was available for export cars, but 4.75 by 21" tyres were available & punctures were very common on mainly rough shingle roads here during '30's. The US size pump was also here[1 1/4" diam. with 4 3/4" by 1 1/2" foot] with stamped or cast screw cap, the later also late Model T issue.
I believe the 'export pump' was also used in US, maybe only certain areas?
Re the screwdrivers,except for timing adjust.s & packing nut, a screw driver is not that necessary; carb idle can easily be done by hand. Pliers had a screw blade at one end which would have worked for most roadside owner adjustments in old days .All the different types of screwdrivers seen in 'original' kits makes me wonder whether they were not always standard issue,[ or at least in Canada.] & just owner bought ones?

[Bick in New Zealand]

Just ame across his by chancewhile looking for something else.
February 1930 Service Bulletin Ford Canada.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Wow! Pretty deluxe piece of kit, with the regular screwdriver at 15 cents in the 1932 USA catalog!
I've never seen the British pump from the small Ford lines, but have Ford England catalogs showing a number of overlaps in tool equipment. I think (??) the small Ford came out in late '31 for the '32 model year, a time when A's were still in full production in England.
Thanks for the AF dimensions...I'll measure my suspect tonight. Do you have a height measurement?? I think about the same as regular A pump? Over here, we have a later pump, 1935 or so, that is a shortened AF made to fit into a mid thirties tool compartment on V8 roadsters and coupes.

PS...on the Ford tire pump Breaking News front, I have found a neat fitting that screws into the original Ford chuck to adapt it better to the modern world: It adds a depressor for the Schrader pin AND a check valve, making the early pumps fully usable with late model Scrader springs and pins. Smaller, neater, and cheaper than the rather crude ones in the resto catalogs. Will bring in details of source.

[5window]

This is a great post! I am always amazed at the amount of knowledge that is available on this board.

[Tudortomnz]

Bruce
AF pump is same height as regular. I have seen those 'short' pumps & always wondered from what car as they looked Ford issue type--for V8 coupe& rdstr, amazing!
I put a pic. of my cars [Canadian] toolkit on site with everyones cars , on p9.
Everyone will be scouring swapmeets for an old looking Robertson screwdriver now!