Overdrive solenoids

[zoegrant]

Is there anyone who rebuilds overdrive solenoids or does one have to buy a new one ?

[zoegrant]

Can a 12v solenoid be used on a 6v system ?

[JimNNN]

I bought a new one from fifth ave. auto parts in Clay Center, KS. He offers both 6 and 12 volt versions (the voltages obviously aren't interchangeable in application.) Some people online have said that you CAN'T use voltage reducers or transformers or whatever on the electrical overdrive stuff, so I bought the 6 volt version to fit my 6v system. I have no idea if that is accurate, but that's what I did.



I've seen 6 and 12 v solenoids for the BW R10 (I believe that's what you have, as I recall) available from other places to, sometimes at a little bit less money. I bought the solenoid from this company because the owner of the company apparently knows something these old od units. If you buy from him, he says, "call if you have any problems"... I gotta tell you though, I did call him about problems and he's definitely a man of few words...very few. Not real helpful, when all is said and done.



As far as rebuilt units, the source I bought from had no core exchanges, which leads me to believe that there probably aren't any or many rebuilt units out there but I could be wrong.


BTW, DON'T forget to buy the solenoid shaft seal when you buy the solenoid. You're supposed to change those out whenever you remove the solenoid. They're about 8 bucks.


Okay, one other thing: To remove the solenoid, you remove the two bolts, and turn the solenoid about a quarter turn to the right to get the keyed shaft out of the pawl. To put a new one in, you first have to activate the solenoid by powering grounding it (read instructions) - either through the relay or the battery - to extend the shaft. You put it back in and turn it about a quarter turn to the left...which is reverse the removal process. This should engage it in the pawl. You can then remove the ground and the retracting shaft will pull the solenoid up the mounting surface on the OD housing...which let's you know the shaft is properly locked into the pawl.

[zoegrant]

JimNNN ..thanks for all the information...

What I am up against here is this...with the OD cable pushed in, the car acts as though it is in overdrive as the car will free wheel after 28 mph, and when I give the car some gas and then let off the gas it should go into OD but it does not but will stay in direct drive and if I lift off the gas it will free wheel
The kickdown switch will not kick down to go into passing gear.
I cant seem to find out which section of the OD system has the problem.
THESE ARE THE TEST I HAVE RUN.
The relay clicks as it should....the governor bench tested good with test light coming on after gear reaching speed using a wire wheel to spin it....the solenoid tested good with plunger extending when direct current from a battery was applied to the solenoid.....the test light has been applied on each terminal of the kick down and is as follows...
With key on and test light grounded and light touched to connections as follows..
Front Red wire clicks rely
Front White wire clicks rely
Front White wire with kickdown depressed, no click
Both rear wires, white & red wire on the rear of the kickdown no power.. and also the rear green & orange wire no power
The white wire that goes to the governor has power.
On the relay the only wire with no power is the blue wire that goes to the solenoid.
ONE LAST THING..I cannot get the solenoid to click no matter what test I do, UNLESS put direct current to it from the battery...I know this is a lot but this is my situation.

[40cpe]

Private message and email sent. Call me

[JimNNN]

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What I am up against here is this...with the OD cable pushed in, the car acts as though it is in overdrive as the car will free wheel after 28 mph, and when I give the car some gas and then let off the gas it should go into OD but it does not but will stay in direct drive and if I lift off the gas it will free wheel

Your solenoid is extending as it should, but does the solenoid only fail to "click" when it is actually installed into the OD unit? Your situation is where my car is at now. I believe I was having trouble finding a good ground, but eventually resolved that issue. Might be your problem? If your solenoid shaft is extending under power (consistently and reliably), I'm thinking it doesn't need to be replaced.

One thing to try: with the solenoid out, take a very narrow screw driver or long metal rod and try pushing the pawl (what the solenoid shaft presses against and actuates.) How far will it go in? According to Randy at Fifth Ave., the screwdriver shaft or rod should be able to push the pawl in about 3/8" or so. If it only goes 1/8 to 1/4" or so, there may be a mechanical problem, rather than an electrical problem...one that can keep a working solenoid from clicking when it is installed. That blue wire from the relay to the solenoid SHOULD have power though, if your car is wired like mine. You might have a kickdown switch issue, too. but I can't say about that.

[zoegrant]

Jim...how did you establish a good ground ? What exactly did you do ?
Will try to push shaft in maybe tomorrow or Sunday, will keep you posted.

[flatheadron]

I'm a little confused about the freewheeling. If the unit is truly in direct drive, there is no freewheeling. The overrunning clutch is effective only in overdrive but what your describing sounds like it's going into a neutral. The overrunning clutch allows for smoother operation when in O/D. The overrunning clutch will freewheel if you back off the gas at 5-10 mph if it's truly in O/D. There's a Borg-Warner diagram that may help with the wiring, send me a private message and I'll see if I can forward it to you.

[40cpe]

The transmission will free wheel when the overdrive is available (handle pushed in) but not engaged. When the car reaches 28 mph, the accelerator is released, and the transmission drops into overdrive, there is no free wheeling as the engine is mechanically tied to the rear axle. If the transmission free wheels at higher speeds, it is in direct drive (non-overdrive) but there is no engine braking because of the sprag (over running) clutch.

[Anteek29]

Zoegrant - Make sure the shift rail lever on the tranny is fully engaged when the OD knob on the dash is pushed in.

[JimNNN]

Seems not all grounds are created equal, and what I've found when working with my solenoid is that several places on the car where I could get a ground good enough for a test lamp weren't good enough for a new solenoid to work. Eventually I ran a lead down from where the engine ground patches to the body at the firewall to ensure a good ground. The other end of the lead went to the one of the solenoid mounting bolts between the bolt head and the flange (not between the mating surfaces of the sol flange and the OD housing, of course.) Once I did that, however, the mating surface of the OD housing seemed to start providing an adequate ground. I'm not an electrician (obviously) so I'm not even going to pretend to understand how that happened.



My car is definitely doing what zoegrant's car is doing...freewheeling without the high gear (overdrive) engaging. Because I can't push the pawl in much more than 3/16" with a screw driver, Randy of 5th Ave, and I figured that blocker ring (or whatever it's called) might possibly be out of alignment with the pawl. There is a way to possibly fix that without removing and disassembling the whole overdrive unit, but it doesn't always work. That's a bridge not worth crossing til you get to it, though.



Sounds like Zoegrant may be having electrical issues which will be much less of a problem to deal with.

[zoegrant]

FLATHEADRON.. and....40CPE....for some reason I was under the impression that if freewheeling takes place that I was in overdrive...I now know that I was and am in direct drive. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
ANTEEK29....I double checked under the car to make sure the lever is fully seated back to the rear of the tranny. It is.
JIMNNN....I will install a heavier ground wire directly to the solenoid bolt to see if that will help the solenoid engage...When I run a wire from the battery to the solenoid directly the plunger does engage. Other than that, it will not engage.
Cannot work on the car today as I have to pick up my wife at the airport, she has been gone 2 weeks and the house needs to be put back in good shape.

[flatheadron]

If you are truly in direct drive then there is a gear that slides into the planetary to lock the unit in direct. The overrunning clutch is locked out. If it still free wheels then I agree that something internal is not engaging as it should. I'll define freewheeling as no engine braking under decal and the ability to float when not accelerating, like an automatic does in drive range first gear. One thing I wanted to ask, you are not using a synthetic lubricant in the unit are you? there have been some reports that synthetic lubes will cause the overrunning clutch not to lock up. Nothing conclusive but something to consider. Even though Ford in the era said to use SAE 80 gear oil, Borg-Warner recommended SAE40 engine oil and cautions against using any type of hypoid oil. Back in the gear shops had a barrel of API GL2 or GL3 gear oil that was not hypoid (GL4 or 5) for use in manual transmissions. I recommend SAE 40 engine oil.

[JimNNN]

Zoegrant, one thing I will say: If that blue wire from the relay to the solenoid isn't transmitting power (i.e., hooking up the test lamp to the blue wire at the solenoid end, then grounding the other lead of the lamp...and the lamp doesn't light up) I'd say that's probably the issue to address even before the supplementary grounding lead.



Either the blue wire is bad, or the relay has a problem. According to Randy Rundle's repair guide for the Borg Warner, the relay can click when it's grounded and still be at fault. Checking that the fuse mounted on the relay is still good and making sure the ignition key is turned to the on position when checking the blue wire with a test lamp is the place to start. I'm sorry, but my old ford wagon and the manuals for it are in storage right now so I don't have ready access to them. I'm kind of going off of memory right now and trying not to steer you wrong.


Also, if there was oil inside your solenoid cover due to a poor seal at the shaft/plunger, then that can make solenoids fail or work inconsistently.

[zoegrant]

RON...I am using mineral oil 85-90 weight, GL1....also when I pull the cable out it definitely is in direct drive so I am inclined to think all is well internally...
JimNNN….I replaced the blue wire and no change on engagement of solenoid.

RON and 40CPE....A NEW DEVELOPMENT...with the THSW jumped to ground and the key on, the relay fuse will glow orange but it does not blow.... and the blue wire to solenoid has power but still no engagement of the solenoid....does that sound like the solenoid points are grounded ?

[40cpe]

Have you verified that the governor activates the relay at about 28 mph? If so, I would take it on a short test drive. That will increase the voltage to the solenoid because of the charging system AND have the mechanicals moving. If that doesn't work, I think I would change the solenoid with a working spare.

[Anteek29]

I'd run a jumper wire to a multimeter or a test light inside the car to verify the governor activates during a test drive.

[rotorwrench]

Your test methods with a test light are flawed ways to test. A person would need a volt ohm meter and check each wire plus each switch for continuity. A test light is just good check for power at a terminal and that is only if you know it should have power there.

A lot of operating solenoids just need the points in side them cleaned. If one of the two coils is bad, the operating solenoid is bad. But it has to be tested in situ to see if all the functions are working. I've purchased perfectly good ones from flea-pay on several occasions. If yours is the standard type as defined on the 5th Avenue internet garage site then they fit more than just Ford cars. A lot of manufacturers used the same units.

[Anteek29]

[QUOTE=rotorwrench;1824490]Your test methods with a test light are flawed ways to test. A person would need a volt ohm meter and check each wire plus each switch for continuity. A test light is just good check for power at a terminal and that is only if you know it should have power there.

M thinking is voltage at the solenoid at 28+ mph should confirm all the electricals in the string are operational up to the solenoid?

[rotorwrench]

I was commenting on the original test method of the OP. Using a test light can work well enough if a person knows where power should be but a lot of the operational function is provided by ground path function. A test light can provide a ground path where there would normally not be one until the control switch closes.

The operating solenoid only needs to be tested on the bench to see if the coils work properly on the #4 terminal or blue wire. The orange or orange with blue tracer on terminal #6 is just for the ground path to the ignition coil. An electrical diagram of the circuit is imperative for testing on the electrical system. If all the electrical functions are correct then the problem is inside the transmission. The pawl has to hit the balk ring to cock the trigger of the OD system. When a person lets off the gas the pawl can then go all the way into the ring and engage the the overdrive. If there is something wrong with the pawl, balk ring, lock out rail, the sun gear, or the planetary set up then it may not function.

A person should get the manual for the car they have and study it. These pubs are available on CD/DVD now days and aren't too expensive.

[zoegrant]

TWO QUESTIONS.....Does the wire that is attached to the coil go to the ground of the solenoid ?
Can a 12V solenoid be used on a 6v electrical system ?

[40cpe]

The wire from the coil does go to the ignition grounding wire of the solenoid through the kickdown switch. The kickdown switch creates a gap in the wire until the kickdown switch is activated, thus closing the circuit and momentarily grounding the ignition. If you run the wire from the coil straight to the solenoid, it will kill the engine when the overdrive is engaged. I have heard of people using 12v on a 6v solenoid, but I don't think there is enough voltage to operate a 12v solenoid on 6v. Never tried it, though.

[zoegrant]

Thanks for the explanation.... was trying to determine why the white wire from my coil to the solenoid was a different color at solenoid which is a green wire. I completely missed the fact that it had to go to the kickdown first and hence the different color originating thru the kickdown where the color changed to green.

[zoegrant]

Also... have think I have isolated the problem in my OD setup to be in the solenoid.
When I ground the THWS to the engine block and turn the key on, the fuse at the relay glows an orange color and shows power going to the solenoid at the blue wire on the relay...When I do the same with the wire removed from the solenoid under the car the fuse does not get hot and the blue wire to the solenoid from the relay still shows power.
My theory...there is a short in the solenoid.

[Anteek29]

Z...At this point my choice would be to pull the solenoid and perform a bench test.

NOTE: I have updated my last comment in #19.

[Hot Rod Reverend]

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Hands down - your solenoid is not engaging. The "free-wheeling" comes from the cable being pushed in, sliding the shift rail into position like it should. The transmission is just waiting for the electric circuit to kick the solenoid into action, thereby engaging the pawl.

Have you tried swapping the two wires from the solenoid? sometimes these solenoids are rebuilt and the wire leads swapped - it can fool you. Worth it one more time before you pull it out and bench test it.

[zoegrant]

Anteek29.....I did bench test it and it tested good, The engagement plunger shot out strongly.
Hot rod rev.....even though the solenoid is now out of the car, I will try reversing the wires on the solenoid to see what happens. Will keep you posted.

[40cpe]

The reverend has a point: If your hot wire from the relay is connected to ignition ground wire (#6) on the solenoid , it is a direct ground. According to the schematic, the hot wire from the relay should be connected to the wire marked (4).

EDIT: I was typing at the same time as you. Bench testing good is a good sign. It would be easy to reverse the wires under the car, so careful tracing of the wires would be in order.

[zoegrant]

HRR...tried it as you suggested...still not engaging....but solenoid works perfect out of the car....I am going to look over everything again tomorrow.
THANKS TO ALL FOR SUGGESTIONS

[zoegrant]

These are the two test I am using to test the solenoid....
#1...solenoid out of the car, jumper hooked to power NEG terminal of 6v battery to power terminal #4 on the solenoid. The next jumper from POS ground of battery to the ears of the solenoid.
SOLENOID THEN WORKS.

#2...under car with solenoid in my hand. A heavy ground wire to ear of solenoid and to a clean tranny bolt and the hot wire (blue) coming down from the relay to the #4 terminal of the solenoid....SOLENOID DOES NOT WORK.

The THSW switch has been jumped at the relay to a ground and the relay solenoid blue wire shows power with the test light at the relay with the key is on....the blue solenoid wire is tested under the car with a test light and is hot...Still nothing happens.

[40cpe]

are you using the car battery to bench test the solenoid? You should put a volt meter on the hot wire under the car. It is sounding like you have a bad connection somewhere in the circuit that is loosing a lot of voltage before it gets to the solenoid or your car battery is weak.

[Anteek29]

X2 what 40cpe said.

[zoegrant]

good morning ..just checked the voltage on car.
I haven't charged the battery in a couple of weeks but I just put it on the maintenance charger just now.
I am using the car`s battery to bench test the solenoid.
The battery reads 6.22v
The end of the relay solenoid wire (blue) reads 6.02v
The hot wire under the car 5.99v.

[40cpe]

Is the 5.99 reading with the solenoid energized? A bad connection will show good voltage until a load is put on it. If that checks good, I would install the solenoid and run the car up to engagement speed, verify that the governor is activating the relay, and test drive the car. With the car running at 30+ mph (try second gear) the generator should be charging to 7-7.5 v. The increased voltage and the movement of the gears in the car might engage the solenoid. If that doesn't work, I would run a 12 gauge wire from the battery hot terminal through a 30 amp toggle switch straight to the solenoid and test drive it. If that works, there is a weak connection in the original circuit. If it doesn't work, I'm out of ideas.

[zoegrant]

Gene....The 5.99 reading under the car it without the solenoid installed...just a multimeter test on the end of the blue solenoid wire that is just hanging down loose under the car and the other multimeter lead wire hooked to a ground. .
I will run a test on the governor with a test light hooked to the blue wire and see if the light is activated at around 30mph. The car will be on jack stands in my garage.

[rotorwrench]

With the firewall relay energized, the blue wire should read battery voltage. If voltage is dropped some, it's due to resistance of the wire, crusty terminal connection, or the relay points are getting crusty. The relay activation will also take some power but it shouldn't be much. Are you jumpering the ground path to the governor connection to energize the relay or just jumpering the THSW terminal to ground? You shouldn't have to run the governor up to on speed unless you just want to test the switch in there.

If your operating solenoid is well grounded to it's case then the blue wire at the #4 terminal on the solenoid should get it to kick out the plunger.

6.22 is normal voltage for a 6-volt battery. I just hope it's got normal capacity. A high rate discharge test or turning the lights on with a good light output will test your battery capacity. If you hit the starter with the lights on then they will dim a bit but if they dim way down then there may be a battery problem.

[Anteek29]

Originally Posted by zoegrant

Gene....The 5.99 reading under the car it without the solenoid installed...just a multimeter test on the end of the blue solenoid wire that is just hanging down loose under the car and the other multimeter lead wire hooked to a ground. .
I will run a test on the governor with a test light hooked to the blue wire and see if the light is activated at around 30mph. The car will be on jack stands in my garage.

You are really tenacious...keep searching for the culprit. We want to know too

[zoegrant]

..tested the governor in the car in this manor....

I ran a long 10ga wire from the solenoid side of the relay into the inside of my car with a test light hooked to the end of the wire.
The car is on jack stands and I brought the car up to 35 MPH...the governor did not activate the relay so I did not have any power to test light.
The governor tested good on the bench with the test light hooked to it and the governor being spun using a wire wheel against the gear causing the test light to come on, which it did.
So governor is good.
The two things I feel are good are that the GOVENOR and the SOLENOID are good.
The KICKDOWN switch has power at both forward terminals but it will not kickdown to direct drive.
A question....the wire from the Governor sends power to the forward drivers side kickdown terminal.....then the power goes to the relay from there to the THSW terminal on the relay and then across the relay fuse to activate the solenoid wire...IS THIS CORRECT ?

IS THERE A WAY THE RELAY CAN BE BENCH TESTED ???

[40cpe]

The governor GROUNDS the relay coil which then pulls the points closed to send power to the solenoid. It does not produce or transmit power or voltage. It does the same thing as your grounding test lead on the bench test. The power comes through the ignition switch to the fuse on the relay. The two terminals on kickdown switch closest to the mounting stem are for the governor. Those two terminals should show no (or little) resistance when tested with an ohm meter. The terminals on the other end of the switch should test open. A test light is not the tool to use testing this switch.

You effectively bench tested your relay by putting a ground jumper to the THSW terminal with the ignition switch on and checked for voltage on the solenoid terminal. Call me anytime.

[rotorwrench]

The ground path for the relay has to go through the kick down switch to get the continuity between the governor switch and the THSW terminal on the relay. The switch has to be correctly wired. The two terminals that are closest to the floor are the ones to use for the relay control. The kick down switch also has to have continuity between those two terminals since they are normally closed. The two terminals farthest from the floor are strictly for the ground pathway to kill the ignition coil but they are normally open until the kickdown is pushed all the way by the throttle pedal so there should be no continuity there until the kickdown function is needed.

When the kick down switch is pushed during operation with OD engaged, the relay circuit is opened to drop the trans out of OD and the ignition coil is killed momentarily until the operating solenoid drops all the way out. This action opens a set of points in the solenoid that allows the ignition to come back to life. It only takes a half a second for all that to happen.

The relay takes power to function. It's hot as soon as the ignition switch is turned on but the ground pathway through the governor switch is open. To test, connect your test light or volt meter to the SOL terminal with the other end to the common ground. Apply power to the IGN terminal on the relay. Ground the THSW terminal to the common ground used for the test and the relay should energize and show system voltage on your volt meter or light up your test light.

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by zoegrant

..
The KICKDOWN switch has power at both forward terminals but it will not kickdown to direct drive.

The power to one terminal on the opposite end of the kickdown switch from the stem is coming from the coil with the ignition on. The connection between that terminal and the one opposite should be open. Your kickdown switch might be stuck in the kickdown position. If so, it would keep your governor circuit open and cause the relay not to work at kick-in speed.

The wire from the governor should not be connected to a terminal on the end opposite the mounting stem. It should connect to a terminal closest to the floorboard when the switch is mounted. A wire from the opposite terminal then goes to the THSW terminal on the relay.
Question: Is there voltage on the wire that should connect to the #6 wire on the solenoid?

[CrownVic55]

Zoegrant- do you have a56 ford service manual? Very good schematic of the OD electrical and good write up on function. If you don't have one, I will scan in a copy of schematic and send it to you.

Ben

[38coop]

I am learning from all of this. Is it possible that the kick down switch is out of adjustment and not fully engaging when the gas pedal is pushed down. Don't know if it would make any difference.

[rotorwrench]

Check it with an Ohms meter. The two terminals toward the button stem are normally closed (button not depressed). The two farthest from the stem are normally open (not closed till the button is depressed all the way down). There is no connection between the two sets of terminals since they control two separate circuits with the same switch.

[zoegrant]

ROTOWRENCH...Just checked the kickdown switch with an ohm meter and the two front (closest to stem) do not have continuity.
The two rear connections (furthest from stem ) do have continuity.
This is opposite to your above post. Could this be the problem ?

[zoegrant]

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40cpe & 38coop... just finished installing another kickdown switch I had....no difference.

[40cpe]

Did you check the replacement switch? The one you took out could just be stuck. You might try some pliers to pull the stem back out.

[Dobie Gillis]

Or installed upside down, if that's possible? If you installed it upside down and connected the wiring per the diagram then the wiring would be wrong and maybe causing the problem. Dunno, just throwin' it out there...

[rotorwrench]

The OEM type switches are pretty simple inside. A spring holds the tension of the terminal jumper plate against the two terminals for the OD operating circuit. When the button is pushed, it forces the terminal jumper plate down, opening the normally closed set then on down to the other two terminal locations to close the normally open set.

I've not had to deal with reproductions yet so I don't know if they are different or not. One set of terminals should have continuity between each other with the switch in relaxed position. The opposite terminals should be open. This should reverse when the button is depressed. My guess is that there is a problem with the switch. The replacement should also be checked. My old 49 thru 51 Lincoln Mercury overhaul manual gives good diagrams and even shows the switch and how it is to be wired. I don't do any work without some maintenance information. The Borg Warner electric overdrive system didn't change a lot in the four decades that it was popular so most of the electrical components are the same whether its a Ford or a Studebaker. Exceptions were mostly for convertible models.

If something isn't working like it should then it will have to be repaired or replaced with something that does.

This switch looks and works just like mine do.
https://www.vintageautogarage.com/Bo...fD_BwE&click=2

[Dobie Gillis]

I've used a couple of repops with no issues FWIW. Doesn't mean the OP's can't be bad.

[zoegrant]

40cpe...not stuck as I did check it.

dobbiegillis...can not be installed backwards as the floor is cut with the flat side of the of kickdown to fit only one way.

rotowrench...the front two terminals on the kickdown have continuity until stem is depressed then continuity is broken.
The rear two terminals of the kickdown have no continuity until stem is depressed then there is continuity until stem is released. Is this the way it should be ??

[40cpe]

The two terminals with continuity: one terminal has the wire from the governor connected,
the other terminal connects to the THSW terminal on the relay.
The two terminals withOUT continuity: One terminal connects to the distributor side of the
coil. The other terminal connects to the #6 wire on the solenoid.

[zoegrant]

The answer to this OD problem has to be something simple that I have over looked. Tomorrow I start again with fresh eyes...
Thank you to everyone for your ideas and suggestions.
I do have another solenoid on order...even if that is not the problem I will still have a spare.
Will keep all posted as to progress when made...

[40cpe]

Good on you for sticking with it. I'm sticking with you to see the outcome.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Good on you for sticking with it. I'm sticking with you to see the outcome.

Times two!
I've got a '57 3spd with OD that needs attention to get working again.

[KULTULZ]

It seems to me that one would follow the DIAGNOSTIC SEQUENCE in the correct year SHOP MANUAL rather than take hit-or-miss pot shots at it.

[flatheadron]

Where do we stand on this? Is the problem fixed and what did it?

[zoegrant]

I am awaiting for a new relay to come in from Fifth avenue garage...will post when it comes in...thanks

[40cpe]

zoegrant-Any progress or more diagnostics on this?

[zoegrant]

Still waiting for my relay to come...will post after install. hopefully that will take care of the issue...

[40cpe]

OK thanks

[zoegrant]

Please see posting under (WESTACH 6VOLT TACH) for the end result of my overdrive issues. Sorry for the posting screwup...