Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning 101 "In Car"

[H. L. Chauvin]

Part One (1): Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning "In Car":

Posted a reply some time ago that in some cases with dirty rusty tanks, attaching an in-tank screen filter was in my opinion like placing a screen in a toilet & flushing it, in that it will just get clogged & the crap will never leave the toilet.

Well -- here is what I found -- we report -- now you decide.

Last week got tired of draining tank a total of 10 times through a sock whereby each time I would collect the exact "same" 1/2 teaspoon of half rust as coarse as salt, & remaining half rust as fine as flour, mixed in with some blooming idiot's tank sealer solution that is constantly dissolving.

If anybody is familiar with Manning's Chart used for draining square miles of land, whereby Q, (quantity) = A, (area) x V, (velocity), and the value N, (surface friction) etc.; and also that weirs need to be provided to prevent severe earth erosion while draining hill country, I used this theory to devise a way to clean Model A gas tanks while "in" the car with "forced" suction & "forced" out flow vs. the normal "weak" slow moving gravity flow of fuel from the tank as follows:

1. Attached brass cut-off valve to bottom of gas tank.

2. Attached 3/4" garden hose to bottom brass fitting at tank bottom.

3. Attached 1/2 h.p., (500 GPH) water pump, ($34.00 on ebay), to hose, with 3/4" outlet garden hose going back in tank.

4. Placed a T-shirt filter "securely" tied with string over end of discharge hose in tank.

5. Filled bucket with 2 gallons of hot water from bathtub faucet & poured 2 Gallons of POR Marine Clean in bucket & emptied all of the mix in the gas tank.

6. Grabbed running board & shake car sideways a few times in intervals & wait 30 minutes for POR mix to begin doing its job.

7. Opened the cut-off valve, & turned pump to "ON" & ran the pump for 30 minutes while shaking car now & then -- good forced flow into tank was immediately noticed.

8. Stopped pump after 30 minutes & went to pull hose out of tank. It would not come out easily because of a large rust ball in the T-shirt filter.

9. First 30 minutes I extracted an amazing 1-1/2 cup of debris in the make shift undershirt filter. I really could not beleive it. Beats the living heck out of getting 1/2 teaspoon at a time with gravity flow.

Will try to post an update or updates in Part 2 maybe tomorrow.

Maybe this is not for everyone, but just hope this first hand information can help someone to remove large or small amounts of debris in gas tanks while not removing the gas tank.

Vehicles stranded on the highway with poor fuel flow are not fun.

Safety first.

[Tiny]

Very interesting. I curious to see how this turns out for you. I believe I have a rust issue to deal with in the future.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Tiny,

Vintage vehicle fuel tank cleaning is somewhat similar to dog training.

The first requirement to be a good dog trainer is to have more sense than the dog -- many fail this test.

Likewise, the first requirement to be a good tank cleaner is to have more sense than a gas tank -- likewise appears many have already failed this test.

Strong acid, caustic soda, nuts, bolts, chains, all removing the delicate original Ford terne coating followed by a sealer coating made with a cheap bootleg tank sealer such as plastic laminate (Formica) glue, thinned permatex, & other mixes.

I have a 1930 coupe which still has the terne coating because it was never abused.

This water based POR 15 Marine Clean cuts gasoline varnish, grease, tar, & evaporated petroleum based materials very efficiently.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Part Two (2): Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning "In Car":

1. Used a sock filter this time in lieu of a piece of T-shirt -- sock fits better on outlet hose emptying into the gas tank & is easy to remove because of not being bulky where securely tied.

2. Ran pump 45 minutes this second time & collected only about a level tablespoon of large flake rust, maybe about 70% the size of ice cream salt & about 30% about the size of table salt mixed with black particles which appear to be some former disintegrated gas tank sealer -- also flour size rust mixed in.

3. After this second time, the POR 15 Marine Clean/water mixture, 1:1 is now reddish brown & about the darkness of a glass of 2/3's regular ice tea mixed with 1/3 clear water.

4. Have about 4 gallons of 1:1 mix in tank -- it can be re-used later for any type of initial cleaning of grime & grease -- Iusually mix it 1:4 in lieu of 1:1 for general cleaning.

5. After realizing what I was faced with, i.e., lots of severe rust, I did not attempt to make the dirty leg gas tank plumbing device -- not only would the inlet continue to get stopped up, but with over 1-1/2 cups of rust it would take lots of time to get rid of this amount of debris.

Few details I left out of Post One (1).

a. Tried pump first with clean water with 5 gallon bucket -- had some manufacturing plastic debris that came out -- tried second time with clean water -- warer remained clean with no particles of debris.

b. First tried small T-shirt pre-filter in suction hose connected to gas tank -- pump ran about 30 seconds, suction hose filter stopped up with rust & the garden hose colapsed with the vacuum -- turned pump off, removed about a tablespoon of rust debris packed in the suction pre-filter, entirely removed the suction pre-filter filter & turned pump back on & ran for 30 minutes as described in above Part One (1).

Wife told me yesterday morning I could use her hair dryer to later dry the gas tank; but she came home yesterday afternoon with a new hair dryer for herself & gave me her old one -- she always makes trading simple.

[Richard/Ca]

Good idea! as I was about to have my tank cleaned I think I will try that first. Good thing there is always some one thinking on the Barn. Thanks H.L.
Richard

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Interesting idea. I do have a question, you said you filled it with 4 gallons, ...why not 11 where it is filled all the way to the top? My experience has shown the top of the tanks & baffles is where the majority of the rust is found.

[BudP]

Since you are using POR 15 Marine Clean, and since the literature for this product does not address rust removal, is rust removal your primary objective?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Brent,

Like with so many others on these Model A Forums, I agree with your profound Model A wisdom & broad experience with seeing the insides of so many gas tanks & very much appreciate your interest & comments about the critical inside tops of tanks.

I am learning as I go & to help others, not at all shy to report any errors if they happen. Always enjoyed the challenge of doing impossible things.

Because I've used POR 15 Marine Clean so often during the past 18 years or so, I noticed 1:4 "hot water" mix can cut the living heck out of insides of old thick & caked axle housing grease, so I'm thinking a 1:1 mix may ruin paint or lacquer.

I was extremely careful to alway use a funnel to fill tank & not allow any mix to splash on paint or in my case lacquer.

Also good idea to wear gloves with a strong 1:1 mix -- I never used the POR 15 MC manufacturer's recommended mix of 1:1 for gas tanks -- always had excellent results cleaning "anything" with 1:4 mix -- have my doubts whether or not the strong 1:1 mix is even required -- at about $20.00 per gallon it is not cheap; however, it can be re-used many times even after being diluted & still work for initial dilution of "any" petroleum products.

What I noticed last night, was that it looked like an old time washing machine inside the gas tank with losts of suds on top of the MC mix -- (this little 500 GPH pump really moved the mix through the 1/4" brass pipe connection at the tank & made suds) -- with shaking the vehicle, (works better to shake it at the roof), suds splashed around to top portions of the tank.

Years ago suds were popular for sudsy cleaning of clothes -- not sure about suds cleaning either -- like with everyone else, the more I learn, the more I find out what I never knew -- it is even more important to remember what does "not" work so one does not repeat failure.

What I was planning to do later today, is to try to first add about an additional 2 gallons of hot water to the tank which would make 6 gallons of the mix in lieu of just 4 & which would dilute the mix to 1 part MC to 2 water -- I have often used 1: 8 mix with success -- even 1:10 works well when mixed with "hot" water.

Then towards the end of the cleaning, try to add another 2 gallons bringing the tank up to 8 gallons with a 1:4 mix & shake car with gas cap "ON"; however, being extremely cautious that suds do not rise high & overflow on paint on top of the tank.

Looks like what happened in this particular case is that rust also built up "under" the old failing tank sealer.

I do not plan to ever use any type sealer. I think tank rust can be tamed with Marvel Mystery Oil -- we used to use, (I think it was Bardhall & Casite), top cylinder lubricants offereed at filling stations in 4 ounce cans.

FWIW, & off the subject of gas tanks, tamed rust, formerly known as "browning", was used on muskets & fowlers prior to bluing steel years ago & well before the so called "invention" of Cor-10 rust finish on steel about 35 years ago -- these tamed rust muskets are still here today -- the browning solution contained salt to make iron rust in several layers.

I'll see what happens & report same later.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Bud,

Fully aware that POR 15 Marine Clean is not their "Prep & Ready" rust conversion product & that MC will not convert rust on metal like their "Prep & Ready".

I am just "cleaning" this 80+ year old formerly so called sealed tank, & in doing so, the old former sealer & thick tank varnish is being rapidly dissolved with MC & is also rapidly turning loose lots of old embedded rust flakes, rust particles, particles of tank sealer, & crud mixed in with tank varnish & sealer that continues to stop up the gas shut off valve.

The bottom of the tank "looked" clean before I started; but now, crud is rapidly being removed from sides & top of tank to the tune of 1-1/2 cup in the first 30 minutes.

Car & tank was formerly stored for 30 years with little or no use.

Hope this helps.

[zzlegend]

Good tip H.L. Thanks for posting.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Part Three (3): Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning "In Car":

1. After allowing yesterday's MC mix to sit all night, ran pump three (3) different times earlier this afternoon, (15 minutes each), after adding (4) gallons of hot water to yesterday's mix -- this provided 8 gallons of MC mix in the 10 gallon tank; with now 1 part MC to 4 parts water.

2. Did not try adding over 8 gallons because MC suds were close to the top gas tank opening. whcih could harm finish if spilled.

3. Again ran the pump with (3) separate white socks attached -- maybe going to work tomorrow without socks -- the socks appeared to be only getting very slighter lighter in rust brown color with each run; however in the last (3) pump runs averaged about a teaspoon of maybe 50% ice cream salt size rust with maybe 50% regular size salt size rust particles with black particles which I think is the old sealer.

4. Lastly, drained MC mix from tank with gravity flow again through sock -- maybe have to look for more socks -- last sock had about a teaspoon of same type crud. Drained into (2) Home Depot 5 gallon buckets.

5. Looked inside tank -- tank vertical surfaces & bottom "looked" clean whereby I could now see metal as opposed to brown varnish with accompanying blotches of black sealer; however I could see large ice cream salt size particles on the bottom of the tank. How many such particles? In laymen's terms, take you pick: a) Like looking at watermelon seeds after cutting a watermelon in half; or, b) Like looking at black pepper on a Caesar Salad; or c) Like looking at number 6 shot fired at a blank sheet of target paper from a 20 gauge shotgun with modified choke at 35 yards.

6. Now that tank surfaces appear much cleaner, maybe will "try" something different:

a. Allow tank to dry or semi dry -- maybe use hair dryer, maybe not.

b. Place Shop-VAC in tank bottom to retreive crud -- I know -- in lieu of flowers, make contributio to Fordbarn & Ahooga -- think MC cleaned the petroleum products.

c. Will report back -- (if possible).

[zzlegend]

Just a thought,,,,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pair-Dia-M...item1c339438a4

[H. L. Chauvin]

Thanks Z,


Wow, just what I need -- socks on ebay.

Part Four (4): Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning "In Car":


Well scratch out paragraphs 6. a., b., & c. in reply no. 11 above -- tank not dry enough for Shop-Vac. Figured pump did fine so far, just as well to continue.

Got out another sock, secured it to the outlet hose, & put filtered MC mix back in tank, & cranked up pump again -- pump been running an hour now from 6:00 p.m. to 7:0o p.m.

Had to clean pump twice by connecting fresh water hose to pump inlet, start pump, & flush out rust particles -- rust particles in impeller area were causing pump suction problems.

This Model A fuel tank was some dirty -- never saw such a mess.

Will get back later.

[Pinstripe]

Do you have any plans to try and remove the rust after the cleaning is done?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Pinstripe,

Will treat rust like oiling rust on a shotgun; e.g., witn Marvel Mystery Oil added to gasoline; i.e., 4 ounces per 10 gallon tank.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Part Five (5): Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning "In Car":

1. Ran pump for 2 hours 15 minutes with MC mix.

2. Just emptied former white sock -- found about 1/2 teaspoon of same type of rust after 2-1/4 hours of circulating -- red/brown color of sock was lighter in color.

3. Figured that is about it for cleaning the tank by circulating the MC mix with pump -- removed lots of rust, crud, & tank sealer particles.

4. Will now flush out tank with clean water to remove the POR 15 mix & allow same to dry then add gas & MMO.

5. Will go to work tomorrow with one sock -- just kidding.

[Mitch//pa]

H.L.
I have cleaned gas tanks with evaporust with good success. Its safe, not caustic dissolves the rust off the inside of the tank down to bare metal and also any chunks that are in the bottom. After draining it out its recommended to air dry then fill the tank with fuel to flash the rust...
maybe after you get the sealer out etc this would be a good last step

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Mitch,

Thanks -- will check into Evapo Rust.

Just drained all 8 gallons of the MC mix from the tank by gravity flow into (2) Home Depot buckets & provided bucket covers.

Used "another" clean white sock at end of hose for final gravity draining of mix.

Wnen finished draining 8 gallons, hardly any rust particles in this sock -- would be hard pressed to gather enough rust to fill my wifes 1/4 teaspoon measuring device.

Got all hooked up to flush out tank with clean water from tap -- put the "last" sock on the end of the drain hose -- just want to monitor whar comes out with rinsing the POR 15 MC out of the tank,

Started raining -- connected to water supply hose bibb ouside -- maybe later.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Part Six (6): Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning "In Car":

1. After draining tank by gravity, per reply #18, connected pump suction line to bottom of tank & let pump discharge line run outside, naturally with a new sock at the end to monitor amounts of rust removed.

2. Fed garden hose into top of tank, tiurned water "ON", then started pump.

3. Monitored water level in gas tank to have it just below the gas tank fill opening -- lots of MC suds at first in first 15 minutes -- circulated clear tap water for about an hour or more, shaking car now & then.

4. When finished after a little longer than an hour, the new sock had about a tablespoon of large granular rust flakes with no small flakes, no small rust & no crud such as rust the size of flour -- large rust flakes were clean.

5. Amazed to see sealer was gone, about 95% of the terne coating was still in place except for rust spots here & there about the size of a pencil eraser or smaller.

6. Bottom of tank appeared clean -- water exiting rapidly with the pump during the last half hour was crystal clear.

7. Will follow Mitch's suggestion to try Evapo-Rust -- only about $90.00 for 5 gallons at O'Reilly Auto Parts if they have it in stock. Thanks again Mitch.

Just hope this can help somebody with lots & lots of rust flakes in tank constantly stopping up the shut-off valve & causing fuel starvation.

Will report on Evapo-Rust later.

[Mitch//pa]

H.L.
i would fill tank as high as possible right to the cap and leave sit for 48 hrs with some shaking in between. its only going to work on the areas being submerged. i have also jacked up the front of the car for 24hrs and then the rear (24hrs) to make sure it got the roof of the tank completley. remember what is drained out in the end can be saved and reused for other projects so its not a 180.00 one use thing more of an investment. i think you will be impressed with the results..
mitch