Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-03-2020, 12:30 AM   #1
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

'38 Ford with 3 speed toploader. When I pulled the rear drums to inspect the brakes I discovered the left brakes coated in gear oil. Upon checking the rear diff fluid, it was over filled. When I checked the transmission it was low on gear oil. My question being, would you think the inner axle grease seals are toast and need to be replaced or did it leak as a result of diff being over filled and just push past?

Pressuming the seal in the torque tube needs to be replaced? Or is there another seal at the back of the trans that would cause the flow to the diff?

It appears to be Mac's 600 gear oil(or steam cylinder oil) that was in it, not sure tho just judging from reading I've done and the extreme thickness...
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 08:31 AM   #2
Terry,OH
Senior Member
 
Terry,OH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,446
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Very unusual for the trans fluid to move, it is usually the rear diff. fluid due to a dropped front end. You may be best to keep the fluid in the trans with a sealed rear bearing on the U-joint side of the trans. There is also a seal at the front of the torque tube that must be bad. Along with the seals inside the rear diff. axle housings. Do not use 600 W gear oil. Is your vehicle stored in a location that raises the front end of the vehicle?
Terry,OH is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 04-03-2020, 08:31 AM   #3
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,053
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

I've taken a good number of these early Ford banjo rears ('35-'40) apart in over 60 years of playing with these old Fords, and probably 9 out of 10 times, those axle housing lip seals were bad/worn out, or "toast" as some say. Granted, these seals can be a royal "pita" to remove and install new ones. It's also quite difficult to determine the condition of these seals while trying to see and examine them through the large diameter opening of the axle housing, so therefore, in many cases, I believe some folks just ignore replacing these seals while rebuilding, or making other internal repairs to these banjo rears.

IMHO, if/when these rears are removed and torn down for any reason, it's best to just go ahead and replace all three of these seals at the same time.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 09:05 AM   #4
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Terry,OH no, stored in garage with level floor.

Sealed rear bearing on u joint side of trans, is that a stock/original part? Or something special I need to track down?

Yes I drained out all the 600, will use proper gear lube. After I pull rear and replace seals...
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 09:38 AM   #5
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,053
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Another thing I've noticed when working on these rears is...some folks like to pump lots of chassis grease into the zerk fittings at the small end of the axle housings.
• First, this is not the best grease for the drum/axle housing bearings. It's best to hand pack those bearings with a fiber filled grease, such as, Sta-Lube 3131.
• Second, when chassis grease is pumped into the rear wheel bearings, it's possible to get separation of the oil and other materials used in that lube during heated conditions. This oil will sometimes bleed through the hub/drum bearing seal, and coat brake shoes and other braking components with that oil that some mistake for gear lube oil coming from the rear banjo, and through the axle housing seals. I've seen this numerous times.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 01:00 PM   #6
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

JM 35 SEDAN if I remove the zerk fitting from the middle of the torque tub, is that centered over the middle bearing(is there one?) And is there another seal right there? When I poked a little hook tool in the zerk hole, what looked like little pieces of deteriorated rubber came out...
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 02:30 PM   #7
Terry,OH
Senior Member
 
Terry,OH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,446
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Since you have a torque tube center Zerk, it is at the center support bearing. That bearing is surrounded by rubber support. Thhe ere is no seal at that location. For the bearing your going to have to search. The MRC 306SG, Federal 1306CG, and the Nachi 6306ZZENR are some of the bearings for the rear of the transmission. Talk to someone at a bearing supply house and see what they recommend. It's hard to believe your transmission is the source of this oil!
Terry,OH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 02:45 PM   #8
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,053
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will D View Post
JM 35 SEDAN if I remove the zerk fitting from the middle of the torque tub, is that centered over the middle bearing(is there one?) And is there another seal right there? When I poked a little hook tool in the zerk hole, what looked like little pieces of deteriorated rubber came out...
*I started this reply but got sidetracked and then came back and finished the post. So I've repeated some things already posted by Terry*

Yes, that zerk is there to lube the center of drive shaft support bearing, and it keeps that bearing in place inside the torque tube. That bearing is encased in a rubber support material that also helps hold the center brg in place.
If you're pulling pieces of rubber thru the threaded hole for the zerk, it's a good possibility that center bearing needs replacing. The original replacements for the center bearing are difficult to find, but Skip Haney in Punta Gourda, FL sells a repro version.
I'm pretty sure Michael Driskell of 3rd Gen Automotive in Tennessee told me he uses sealed bearings in the rear of his early 3spd transmissions, and he most likely sells them as well.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein

Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 04-03-2020 at 03:03 PM.
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 04:16 PM   #9
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,317
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Folks have made tube baffles to fit inside the torque tube but they are to keep the rear axle lube from going forward when folks install dropped axles and not so much for reverse flow. Oil from the U-joint housing is generally not a major problem but like anything, problems can creep in for one reason or another. That shaft damper bearing would likely not like a lot of oil going back there. The rubber donut around the bearing would act as a dam and get soft if bathed in oil all the time.

The slinger ring or baffle on the rear of the main shaft just in front of the rear main shaft carrier bearing will usually keep most of the oil in there unless it gets overfilled. A person can put a sealed bearing in there but I've never had any problems with a seal on just the aft side of the bearing. I like gear lube to get to those bearings. Grease won't last as long as bath oiling will. Most greases have a shelf life of around 4-years. On the helicopters, we pull the seals and regrease them every 24-months but they are a lot easier to get to than the main shaft bearings are in an old Ford.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 04:17 PM   #10
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Terry, OH I am only assuming the oil is making its way from the tranny to the diff. I've had the car for 3 years, drove it minimally for 2 summers and its sat all last year. I am new to old fords and was timid about getting into it mechanically but have now delved right it.

On level ground - When I pulled the diff upper fill plug, half a quart of oil poured out. I can't imagine how the previous owner might have got so much more in above the fill hole, just presuming it came down from tranny. Maybe it didn't and the missing oil from tranny is just from driving and it self lubricating the underside of the car from the clam shell.
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 05:02 PM   #11
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

There was clear evidence of oil when I pulled the zerk fitting out of the middle of torque tube. The whole car is stock, no suspension modifications.
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 05:19 PM   #12
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

JM 35 SEDAN out of all the rears you have worked on have you ever pulled one while leaving the spring attached to the cross member? Tried to piece together bits of info from the forums, can you or anyone else clarify if this is the correct method?

After front tires are blocked -
1. Support frame with jack stands
2. Support and lift diff to stretch the spring back out
3. Install spring spreader(wrap with chain for added safety)
4. Continue to extended spreader until shackle link points straight down(tension should now be off shackle link)
5. Remove only one shackle link
6. Retract and remove spring spreader
7. Undo last spring shackle
8. Ready to slide/roll out from under car(granted clam shell and u joint are disconnected along with speado cable and brake links)

Does the speedo cable unthread at end of cable or do I need to remove the 2 bolts and plate it is attached to?

When the frame is on jack stands and the rear is hanging, what is the approx measurement difference from this to when the spring is spread with the spreader for shackles to be undone?

Thank you for all the help guys, it is greatly appreciated!
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2020, 11:25 PM   #13
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,053
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Will, I normally remove and install these rears by leaving the spring attached to the rear, and then dismantle the spring until just the main leaf is attached by the shackles, then remove the shackle links and final leaf of spring.

I leave the cable attached to the speedo turtle and just remove the two bolts holding the turtle to the torque tube.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC04030.jpg (87.7 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg DSC04031.jpg (92.4 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg DSC04032.jpg (100.2 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg DSC04034.jpg (99.8 KB, 70 views)
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2020, 09:33 AM   #14
blucar
Senior Member
 
blucar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 1,912
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

As a general rule many people, including service tech's over fill the trans and rear end.
If the plug is pulled from either of units and oil flows out, the unit is over full.
When I worked in the auto service industry, 1940's/50's the proper way to check the oil level in a trans/diff was to remove the plug, stick your index finger into the hole to the first knuckle, the tip of the finger should barely touch the oil.
__________________
Bill.... 36 5 win cpe
blucar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2020, 10:01 PM   #15
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Managed to get the rear pulled and disassembled this weekend. Used JM 35 Sedan method to remove the spring, worked stellar.

Between the transmission, torque tube, rear diff and axle housings there was around 1.5 gallons of gear oil and grease. Majority in the rear and torque tube.

All the seals are original, well worn and due to be replaced. Inner axle/ bell end of torque tube.

My next dilemma is the modified roller bearing race in the bell end of the torque tube. Came across a thread Tubby had the same roller bearing race in his unit. Hoping to hear back from him as to his solution.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209034)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200405_191633_resized_1.jpg (23.4 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg 20200405_191742_resized_1.jpg (26.4 KB, 44 views)
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2020, 10:47 PM   #16
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Turns out I didn't finish the thread.....Tubby just left his in along with the old seal. I'm.going to need to remove and replace mine as there is a large pitted/rusted spot, or try and find another torque tube so I can use split bearing race.
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 12:02 AM   #17
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,053
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Will, If it comes to needing to replace torque tube, I have a bunch of them.
Also, if you replace the bearing and race at front of torque tube, make sure the race is a quality part, made using the correct material. Some of the new replacement split races are made of incorrect (too soft) material, that is nothing like the original hardened split outer sleeve bearing that has a dimple that locks into the front mounting diameter of torque tube. Also, if you can't find this bearing and outer race as new parts, I also have a bunch of these in good used condition.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein

Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 04-06-2020 at 12:08 AM.
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2020, 11:36 PM   #18
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

I managed to get the center bearing, modified roller bearing sleeve, and grease seal out of the torque tube.

Had to pull the rubber and spring out of the seal first. The largest pipe I could fit thru the bearing sleeve and grease seal was 1 3/16" OD, as it wasn't optimal width I had to move the end around the bearing a bit to work it out. I was then able to rig a 1 1/8" socket on the end of the first pipe I used to run back thru the torque tube and drive out the grease seal and bearing sleeve. The sleeve came out a lot easier than I expected.

From what I can tell, the torque tube was not machined to fit the sleeve. The sleeve is the same diameter as the grease seal and I can still see the indentation for the proper split bearing sleeve with the dimple. I think they may have just put in a smaller roller bearing to compensate for the thickness of the sleeve. I don't know the diameter of OEM roller bearing tho. Waiting for ecklers to be open to find out, I'm on PST time....

Unless anyone knows the outside diameter of OEM torque tube roller bearing?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200406_180242_resized.jpg (50.7 KB, 42 views)
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 05:23 AM   #19
35fordtn
Senior Member
 
35fordtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McMinnville, TN
Posts: 1,698
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

There was a unique 68 prefix sleeve and smaller OD bearing which is the sleeve shown in your photo. I have them NOS but never encountered them in the wild. I believe you can just discard it and go back with the original split race and a new larger OD bearing as most all cars had.
35fordtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2020, 01:39 PM   #20
Will D
Member
 
Will D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 53
Default Re: '38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35fordtn View Post
There was a unique 68 prefix sleeve and smaller OD bearing which is the sleeve shown in your photo. I have them NOS but never encountered them in the wild. I believe you can just discard it and go back with the original split race and a new larger OD bearing as most all cars had.
Awesome, thank you.

JM 35 SEDAN I Sent you a PM if you can let me know what your asking for sleeve and bearing.
Will D is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.