late 31 s/w Murray or Briggs

[Duffy1]

I have a late 31 s/w indented firewall.The body looks like a Murray but there is a Briggs tag on the fire wall under the tag with all the patent numbers.The fellow who sold it to me said it was a Briggs and he does judging at the national meets. I was also told that in the very late production 31 S/W Briggs had the same look as Murrays . What do I have a Murray or Briggs ? Any help solving this mystery is appreciated . Thanks

[Kevin in NJ]

Briggs bodies will have some the of sheet metal stamped with the Briggs logo. A large (about 1/2 to 1") B stamped in on out of the way places.

My cabriolet has them in the channel where the hood sets in at the bottom, behind the dash rail, and on the door post to firewall brace. I also believe the doors had the stamp on the inner cross brace.

Another unconfirmed difference is in the windshield side trim. Where the cut out is for clearing the stud on the side the corners on the inside of the cut will be rounded or square. If I remember correctly the ones I took off the Briggs cabriolet cowls were are rounded. The other ones that I do not know what they came off of were rounded. I am jumping to a conclusion that the rounded corners are Briggs and the square ones are Murray. Please keep in mind this is my guess and I could be completely wrong.

So The best way is to look around in the corners for the Briggs stamping on the sheet metal.

[Ed Saniewski]

the S/W town Sedan- 160B were built the same from Briggs and Murry. I was not aware that they came with a firewall tag in 31. Mine had the holes for a tag, and it is a Briggs. If you are taking the car apart there are several places that you can find a Briggs stamp and a few other items that would tell the difference between the two mfg's

[Duffy1]

Gentlemen ; Thanks for the response .
Forever 4 . There is no number on the tag.
Kevin in NJ . I will check around the windshield trim .
Ed ; I am not taking the car apart as it has already been restored.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

Gentlemen ; Thanks for the response .
Forever 4 . There is no number on the tag.
Kevin in NJ . I will check around the windshield trim .
Ed ; I am not taking the car apart as it has already been restored.

It sounds like yo have a 'shiny new' Briggs tag. That would be an important piece of information! Now, there is an easy sign to check for. Check the firewall where items are attached. For example there should be a small clamp on the inside right of the firewall where the speedometer cable is attached. On the engine side of the firewall there is a fixed nut attached to receive the screw that holds that clamp. Similarly there are fixed nuts along the bottom of the firewall for attaching the top of the upper floor board. These nuts will either be 'D' shaped nuts or square encased cage nuts. If it has cage nuts it was built by Murray. If it has 'D' nuts then it was assembled by either Briggs or Ford.

One of the major design features of the slant windshield Fordor bodies was totally interchangeable stampings and sub-assemblies similar to Coupes, Tudors, etc. This meant the stampings could come from different sources and be assembled by anyone set up to do so.

[jm29henry]

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If you Google the difference for the 1931 slant window Briggs or Murry there is a web site with pictures and all of the info. Remember ford required that both manufactures parts had to be interchangeable the biggest difference is assembly methods take a look at this site it very informative and will give you a definite answer .

[Duffy1]

Thanks fellows .
I was told by an experienced Model A person that on the very late production S/W that Ford required the body manufactures to make the bodies ( ie area around the top of the windows Murray - curved ; Briggs - straight ) the same which turned out to be curved therefore you could not tell the difference in the Murray and the Briggs by the curvature of the frame around the windows. Briggs had curvature around the windows same as Murray . This is what I would like to verify . Thanks for your input .

[Duffy1]

Marco ;

I looked into the areas you suggested and it appears that all the fasteners are not original . Therefore can not tell from the fasteners if it is a Murray or Briggs . Thanks for your input.

[160B]

Check on the lower front cowl forward of the cowl band and if there is a "Briggs Bug" a backwards "B" like in the below photo you have a Briggs body.

[Joop]

Can you show us some pictures DUFFI 1
Thanks

Click here Murray & Briggs Body Detail Differences

.

[jm29henry]

Yes that IS true as i said in the above post that ford told both bring and murruy that there parts must fit each other that a briggs door will fit a murry and a murry door will fit a briggs (remember this is only on the slant window) if you check out that web site that I suggested for you theywill show you every thing that you are asking !!!

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

Marco ;

I looked into the areas you suggested and it appears that all the fasteners are not original . Therefore can not tell from the fasteners if it is a Murray or Briggs . Thanks for your input.

Well, that would be a first in my 40+ years! If for some odd reason there are hex nuts holding those screws in place you can remove one nut and tell by the shape of the hole. I'm assuming of course it still has an original firewall in it.

[mot]

lets make this easy
open the hood and look at the indented part of the firewall
if its rounded like this picture its Murray
it will also have caged nuts like Marco said
if the portion where my finger is pointing is FLAT then its Briggs
it will also have D nuts in the firewall
its raining too hard to go out and take a picture of my Briggs firewall
tom

[Tom Wesenberg]

Thanks Tom, I wasn't aware of the indent difference. Here's a Briggs then.

[Duffy1]

Gentlemen ;
Thanks for your patience on this . I went out and looked at the fire wall as mot suggested and report that the portion mot is pointing to in his picture is FLAT and looks just like Tom`s picture .
Joop, thanks for the link to the pictures showing the difference in the rain gutter . My rain gutters look just like the Briggs June 31 indented fire wall picture .
jmhenery ; I will also go on google and get some more comparative information as you suggested .
So I have a Briggs with the curvature around the top of the windows just like a Murray .
Again thanks for all your input . Great folks on the Barn .

[Bick in New Zealand]

Hopefully here is a comparison Murray on left

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Duffy1

Gentlemen ;
Thanks for your patience on this . I went out and looked at the fire wall as mot suggested and report that the portion mot is pointing to in his picture is FLAT and looks just like Tom`s picture .
Joop, thanks for the link to the pictures showing the difference in the rain gutter . My rain gutters look just like the Briggs June 31 indented fire wall picture .
jmhenery ; I will also go on google and get some more comparative information as you suggested .
So I have a Briggs with the curvature around the top of the windows just like a Murray .
Again thanks for all your input . Great folks on the Barn .

The point of my first post was that the parts were interchangeable between Murray, Briggs, and Ford built 160-A, 160-B, and 160-C bodies. That means they LOOK identical. Obviously if a curved top door had a straight window it would stick out like a sore thumb and not be interchangeable with others that didn't.

The issue of rain gutters (drip rails) was a commonly shared false premise and NOT due to manufacturer. The early 160 models (regardless of manufacturer) used drip rails designed using the same cross section as was used on Ford built 45-B Coupe bodies. Mid-year they were changed to the rolled bottom style. Vince is checking the Ford records for further details.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

Hopefully here is a comparison Murray on left

If we are talking about the indent they look identical to me!!!

[Bick in New Zealand]

That's what I thought!

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

That's what I thought!

I just thought to zoom in the PDF and they both have D nuts. What makes one a Murray?

[Bick in New Zealand]

This Murray cowl has some D nuts and cage nuts plus this 'tag' From memory the only D nuts are in the firewall, which makes me suspect that that maybe the firewalls came from the same source?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

This Murray cowl has some D nuts and cage nuts plus this 'tag' From memory the only D nuts are in the firewall, which makes me suspect that that maybe the firewalls came from the same source?

That's a tag from a Victoria.

[Bick in New Zealand]

That's a tag from a Victoria.

You are right on the money!

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

That's a tag from a Victoria.

You are right on the money!

That's interesting. For me however, a RHD firewall in a Victoria raises more questions than answers!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by mot

lets make this easy
open the hood and look at the indented part of the firewall
if its rounded like this picture its Murray
it will also have caged nuts like Marco said
if the portion where my finger is pointing is FLAT then its Briggs
it will also have D nuts in the firewall
its raining too hard to go out and take a picture of my Briggs firewall
tom

Tom, might have to rethink this one. Here is Mark Maron's 31 Briggs Blindback before I removed the engine and sanded and repainted the firewall black. No flat on this one. Now that flat spot on my other picture brings up more questions. Was this maybe a time thing?

[Marco Tahtaras]

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Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Tom, might have to rethink this one. Here is Mark Maron's 31 Briggs Blindback before I removed the engine and sanded and repainted the firewall black. No flat on this one. Now that flat spot on my other picture brings up more questions. Was this maybe a time thing?

Are you saying he has a Briggs body with a Murray firewall? See the cage nut where the speedometer cable clamp fastens.

[SkipShift]

Here's mine March 10, 1931

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Tom, might have to rethink this one. Here is Mark Maron's 31 Briggs Blindback before I removed the engine and sanded and repainted the firewall black. No flat on this one. Now that flat spot on my other picture brings up more questions. Was this maybe a time thing?

I should have asked what you saw on Mark's 160-C that determined it was a Briggs body.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

I should have asked what you saw on Mark's 160-C that determined it was a Briggs body.

When I removed the dash rail it had the "B" and as I recall some kind of a bug stamping. I'll have to ask Mark again to be sure.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Are you saying he has a Briggs body with a Murray firewall? See the cage nut where the speedometer cable clamp fastens.

The speedometer nut is crimped in place. I'll see if I have a better picture.

[Tom Wesenberg]

My mistake, the speedometer nut is caged. I found a better picture of it, and I also found a picture of the Briggs body tag by the right kick panel.
Now, the mystery deepens.

[Marco Tahtaras]

That is an old reproduction tag. The seemingly random numbers exclude the Briggs body number prefix (153) so obviously they didn't have a clue what a Briggs 160-C would have.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

That is an old reproduction tag. The seemingly random numbers exclude the Briggs body number prefix (153) so obviously they didn't have a clue what a Briggs 160-C would have.

My Briggs tag on the firewall has the "vin" stamped on it as accepted by Florida DMV.

[msmaron]

Here are my BUGS on my 31s/w 160C for reference for everyone..They are located behind the rear "skirt" and also behind the dash rail very clearly!

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by msmaron

Here are my BUGS on my 31s/w 160C for reference for everyone..They are located behind the rear "skirt" and also behind the dash rail very clearly!

It sure has an interesting mix!

[Roger V]

FWIW, I ventured into the cold storage part of my garage, and I do mean cold, to check the 160-C. I'm saying it's a Briggs due to the D-nuts on the firewall for the speedometer cable clamp and terminal box loom. It has the flat section of the indented teardrop, something I never knew/noticed until shown here. The other three slants are Murray with cage nuts and rounded teardrop.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

It sure has an interesting mix!

Yea they was no uniformity to the stamping, right, left, upside down??

[Charles Coe]

So what's the verdict? Was the firewall replaced at some point or was it originally assembled this way?

[Duffy1]

Charles Coe ;

If this question is addressed to me my findings were .
1) All 31 S/W look the same ie have curved window framing like a Murray . NO factory applied manufacture tag on any 31 S/W . Briggs did put their bugg on some out of sight locations . My 31 s/w has a Briggs tag on the fire wall added by whom ever restored it many years ago. I assume the Briggs bug is on the car some where and the restorer wanted to denote that by putting a Briggs tag on the fire wall . Some day if I ever take the car apart I will look for a Briggs bug . As always appreciate every ones input .

[Joop]

"NO factory applied manufacture tag on any 31 S/W"

Wrong, have this tag in my collection.

160-A Murray 160-A 1931 Standard Fordor Sedan S/W (3W)
..

[Charles Coe]

I should have been more specific. I was wondering about Mark Maron's body with the Briggs stamp but with a firewall that appears to be made by Murray. Or did I miss something somewhere?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here is another indent on a 1931 widebed pickup in our club. It's an unrestored original with a few maintenence repairs, like a new top. Notice it also has the D nuts and flat spot in the indent.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Charles Coe

I should have been more specific. I was wondering about Mark Maron's body with the Briggs stamp but with a firewall that appears to be made by Murray. Or did I miss something somewhere?

Charles it is all original to the car, has not been replaced at all.

[Charles Coe]

Thanks, Mark. That's what I suspected.