The Ford Barn

artron9 · 11-13-2018, 01:19 PM

Hello
Just had my carb and fuel pump checked out and tested. Both are working correctly. However, when I installed both, the engine would not start. I fully primed the fuel bowl, replaced the flexible tubing from the gas line and tightened all connections. The engine cranks but will not start. I feel that the pump is not working since the fuel bowl remains full. When I installed the pump stand I carefully placed it over the pump rod and could feel that the cup was engaged over the rod. If the pump was working, wouldn't the fuel bowl be empty? I'm not sure what to do next? I have tried priming the carb to no avail. Cant figure out what to do next. Remove it and try to reinstall the pump? I would appreciate any suggestions!

JSeery · 11-13-2018, 02:18 PM

If priming the carb didn't get it to fire then it sounds like an electrical issue, not a fuel issue. Are you sure the ignition switch is on and working? Check for voltage at the coil and then check for spark at the coil and then at the plugs.

RKS.PA · 11-13-2018, 05:57 PM

Agree with JSeery. Did it run before you removed the fuel pump and carb? Also, when you say fuel bowl, are you referring to the glass "bowl" on the fuel pump? If the pump is working correctly, the glass bowl is always full since it's pulling gas from the tank.

Looking down the carb throat, do you see gas squirting into the intake manifold when you pump the throttle arm?

artron9 · 11-13-2018, 06:21 PM

Yes! It ran but poorly. I filled the glass bowl before installing the pump. I filled it right to the top. When it was working, it never filled to the top. I will check to see if gas is squirting into the carb. thanks for your response!

artron9 · 11-13-2018, 06:25 PM

I don't think its an electrical problem. I hope I installed the pump correctly. I feel that I did. I will also add gas to the carb and see if I can get it started. Thanks for all you're responses.

Flathead Fever · 11-13-2018, 10:31 PM

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On a no start condition always first try spraying starting fluid in the carb just to see if it will try to start. If it does start you have a fuel delivery problem.

Next look in the carb when it is not running and see if the accelerator pump squirts fuel when you move the throttle. If it does not squirt fuel then the accelerator pump is bad or no fuel is getting into the float bowl. Its really hard to start an engine without a working accelerator pump because a slow cranking engine does not produce enough vacuum to suck fuel out of the carb. It needs that extra squirt to get the engine started. Once the engine is running if it has a bad accelerator pump it will run fine at a steady throttle but it will momentarily stumble when you push on the gas pedal to accelerate. A bad accelerator pump will not make the car act like its running out of gas driving down the road like your describing.

Next remove the fuel line coming "from" the pump and stick it in a bottle and crank the engine. Be very careful not to spill any fuel on the plug wires. In fact, it would probably be a good idea to make sure the ignition is turned off and the car is placed outside away from buildings. Somebody should hold the bottle while somebody else does the cranking. There should be a specification for how much fuel it pumps while cranking in a certain number of seconds but I don't know what that spec is? But just by looking at it you should be able to tell if its adequate.

If there is no fuel coming from the pump then disconnect the "inlet" hose to the pump and give it an alternate source of fuel, a hose stuck into a gas can. If it then pumps you have a plugged line from the tank or an air leak preventing the pump from creating the vacuum needed to suck fuel from the tank. Another thing you can do is connect a vacuum gauge to the pump's inlet and see is it is creating a vacuum. If it is, then connect the gauge back by the tank and see if it is creating a vacuum there.

If you have fuel "in" and fuel "out" of the pump but it still does not start. Yet it will start on starting fluid then you have a stuck closed needle and seat or something is stuck in it. If its stuck closed sometimes you can get lucky by just lightly tapping on it. You can remove the needle and seat and see if you can blow through it. If you can then remove the top of the carb and see if the needle and seat is allowing the bowl to fill up and while your in there check that the jets are not plugged by taking a can of carb spray with the plastic straw attached on the end and force it against the orifices and see if you can spray through them. You should be able to see a good steady stream coming out in the throttle body. If not they are plugged.

Check the fuel pump's rod travel. Check the fuel pump stand for a warped base. Almost all of them I see are warped which would cause the rod not to move the diaphragm in the pump the full amount.

artron9 · 11-14-2018, 11:23 AM

JSeery,JKS, AND Flathead Fever: Thanks for your import! You all gave me advice I will use once my hands thaw out! I do appreciate your suggestions sincerely Ron.

Tinker · 11-14-2018, 09:55 PM

Easy way to rule out if you are getting fuel is to bottle feed the carb. If it fires then fuel, if it doesn't it might be electrical. Doesn't take much fuel. be careful.

G.M. · 11-15-2018, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artron9

Hello
Just had my carb and fuel pump checked out and tested. Both are working correctly. However, when I installed both, the engine would not start. I fully primed the fuel bowl, replaced the flexible tubing from the gas line and tightened all connections. The engine cranks but will not start. I feel that the pump is not working since the fuel bowl remains full. When I installed the pump stand I carefully placed it over the pump rod and could feel that the cup was engaged over the rod. If the pump was working, wouldn't the fuel bowl be empty? I'm not sure what to do next? I have tried priming the carb to no avail. Cant figure out what to do next. Remove it and try to reinstall the pump? I would appreciate any suggestions!

I find on a lot of cars we have to remove the fuel line at the carb and blow a FEW lbs of air in the tank to fill the lined. even with a rag over the filler neck you can push the fuel through with your mouth. Fuel should shoot out to the passenger side fender. G.M.

Charlie ny · 11-16-2018, 10:08 AM

Guys,
Just to clear the air, Ron sent me the carb sometime back and as he stated
the car ran but poorly. He recently at my request returned the carb and pump. The
carb performed as it should on my test motor but the pump was less than marginal,
( not one of my pumps honest ). I rebuilt the pump to my specs and installed the

carb and pump on my test motor and all was 100%. Near immediate self priming,

2 1/2 psi, carb very smooth.
Ron and I work well together but the 750 or so miles between us isn't so
good for trouble shooting. Anybody near Ron in Mass that could do a face to face?
Charlie ny

artron9 · 11-16-2018, 10:37 AM

Hey Charlie, that was nice of you to post that request for help. I have not had a chance to get out in the driveway to continue with my dilemma. I will follow the many suggestions I received from fellow Barners. Thanks for your continued support. Ron

JSeery · 11-16-2018, 12:07 PM

Well, sounds like the carb and fuel pump are tested and good, so if it is a fuel issue it would about have to be the fuel line feed the pump, tank outlet ect. Or the fuel pump rod in not working correctly, too short or cam lobe issue. I would still bet on an electrical problem and eliminate that first. If the intake is primed with some fuel, it should fire up and attempt to run. If you are up to it, a slow input into the intake should keep it running. If it is determined it is not an electrical problem you can connect a fuel source directly to the fuel pump input, some type of gas can on the cowl that is plumbed to fit and see how that works. Second set of eyes sure might be helpful!

rotorwrench · 11-16-2018, 01:13 PM

I've just about experienced all the fuel delivery problems you can have. Here are most thet I can remember. Fuel tank cap has to be vented or the tank has to be vented. The tank should be clean. They tend to get about a 1/2" or more of varnish crap build up after 35+ years. The standpipe in the tank has to be clear of obstructions. A small floating glob of crap or moving debris can block the stand pipe. The fuel line has to be clear all the way to the flex line at the firewall. The flex line has to fully contain fuel as well as vacuum as was already mentioned. If the pump has been tested independently of the engine then a person has to insure the pump rod is going through an acceptable amount of travel to properly operate the pump. The line to the carb has to be clear and the float bowl should fill if all is well.

There are all the simple tests that can be done as was already mentioned for the most part. Floating or other moving debris in the tank would have to be visually checked since there is really no other way to check for that. If the other tests work then it should pump a good stream from the pump outlet when cranking the starter motor. If it doesn't then something was missed.

artron9 · 11-16-2018, 04:04 PM

Jseery and Rotorwrench: Thank you both for your thoughts. Everyone has been so helpful. Now its my turn to incorporate these suggestions and get that sucker running again! Ron

19Fordy · 11-17-2018, 11:01 AM

Is the fuel pump push rod is too short or perhaps worn?
The height of the fuel pump stand on the intake might be too high.
Make sure the screws that hold the top and bottom of the pump together are snug.

artron9 · 11-17-2018, 03:40 PM

19Fordy et al: Got out there today. No fuel at carb when I move the throttle linkage. Removed flex tube at fuel line, blew through it, no obstruction to the tank. Since the pump was rebuilt by the best guy out there, I feel the problem might lie with the pump rod. My next step would be to remove the pump and stand and reinstall it. However, I don't feel confident that is the problem! Because, when I installed the pump and stand, it sat above the manifold a little but I applied a little pressure,and it seated flush. I'm pretty sure that I had the pump cap installed correctly over the pump rod. Maybe I should measure the pump rod? What else could it be? I checked all my connections? Not sure what the next step should be?

RobR'35 · 11-17-2018, 03:55 PM

.200" movement is what the lobe on the cam should be measured at the end of the fuel pump rod.
Rod lengths are 7.872 or 8.872

jimvette59 · 11-17-2018, 05:20 PM

Since you had to thaw out your hands could you get the car in a warmer place maybe the cold is effecting some thing ?? JMHO

artron9 · 11-17-2018, 05:29 PM

RobR'35 AND JimVette59: Today was mild about 50 degrees when I was out there. Thanks for the specs. I'm really leaning towards the rod length! I know that it maybe unlikely, but I have to rule it out or in?

artron9 · 11-17-2018, 05:54 PM

RobR: My car is a 1952 Crestline Vic. The original chassis parts book shows the length of the rod to be between 10.64-10.79". It also shows a bushing as part of the assembly. I don't recall seeing a bushing unless it is below and part of the cam lobe. Mac's has only one rod size designated as 10 1/16".

11-13-2018, 01:19 PM	#1
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	fuel pump problem Hello Just had my carb and fuel pump checked out and tested. Both are working correctly. However, when I installed both, the engine would not start. I fully primed the fuel bowl, replaced the flexible tubing from the gas line and tightened all connections. The engine cranks but will not start. I feel that the pump is not working since the fuel bowl remains full. When I installed the pump stand I carefully placed it over the pump rod and could feel that the cup was engaged over the rod. If the pump was working, wouldn't the fuel bowl be empty? I'm not sure what to do next? I have tried priming the carb to no avail. Cant figure out what to do next. Remove it and try to reinstall the pump? I would appreciate any suggestions!

11-13-2018, 02:18 PM	#2
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: fuel pump problem If priming the carb didn't get it to fire then it sounds like an electrical issue, not a fuel issue. Are you sure the ignition switch is on and working? Check for voltage at the coil and then check for spark at the coil and then at the plugs.

11-13-2018, 05:57 PM	#3
RKS.PA Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Marana, AZ Posts: 1,194	Re: fuel pump problem Agree with JSeery. Did it run before you removed the fuel pump and carb? Also, when you say fuel bowl, are you referring to the glass "bowl" on the fuel pump? If the pump is working correctly, the glass bowl is always full since it's pulling gas from the tank. Looking down the carb throat, do you see gas squirting into the intake manifold when you pump the throttle arm?

11-13-2018, 06:21 PM	#4
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem Yes! It ran but poorly. I filled the glass bowl before installing the pump. I filled it right to the top. When it was working, it never filled to the top. I will check to see if gas is squirting into the carb. thanks for your response!

11-13-2018, 06:25 PM	#5
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem I don't think its an electrical problem. I hope I installed the pump correctly. I feel that I did. I will also add gas to the carb and see if I can get it started. Thanks for all you're responses.

11-13-2018, 10:31 PM	#6
Flathead Fever Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Yucaipa, CA Posts: 1,094	Re: fuel pump problem Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) On a no start condition always first try spraying starting fluid in the carb just to see if it will try to start. If it does start you have a fuel delivery problem. Next look in the carb when it is not running and see if the accelerator pump squirts fuel when you move the throttle. If it does not squirt fuel then the accelerator pump is bad or no fuel is getting into the float bowl. Its really hard to start an engine without a working accelerator pump because a slow cranking engine does not produce enough vacuum to suck fuel out of the carb. It needs that extra squirt to get the engine started. Once the engine is running if it has a bad accelerator pump it will run fine at a steady throttle but it will momentarily stumble when you push on the gas pedal to accelerate. A bad accelerator pump will not make the car act like its running out of gas driving down the road like your describing. Next remove the fuel line coming "from" the pump and stick it in a bottle and crank the engine. Be very careful not to spill any fuel on the plug wires. In fact, it would probably be a good idea to make sure the ignition is turned off and the car is placed outside away from buildings. Somebody should hold the bottle while somebody else does the cranking. There should be a specification for how much fuel it pumps while cranking in a certain number of seconds but I don't know what that spec is? But just by looking at it you should be able to tell if its adequate. If there is no fuel coming from the pump then disconnect the "inlet" hose to the pump and give it an alternate source of fuel, a hose stuck into a gas can. If it then pumps you have a plugged line from the tank or an air leak preventing the pump from creating the vacuum needed to suck fuel from the tank. Another thing you can do is connect a vacuum gauge to the pump's inlet and see is it is creating a vacuum. If it is, then connect the gauge back by the tank and see if it is creating a vacuum there. If you have fuel "in" and fuel "out" of the pump but it still does not start. Yet it will start on starting fluid then you have a stuck closed needle and seat or something is stuck in it. If its stuck closed sometimes you can get lucky by just lightly tapping on it. You can remove the needle and seat and see if you can blow through it. If you can then remove the top of the carb and see if the needle and seat is allowing the bowl to fill up and while your in there check that the jets are not plugged by taking a can of carb spray with the plastic straw attached on the end and force it against the orifices and see if you can spray through them. You should be able to see a good steady stream coming out in the throttle body. If not they are plugged. Check the fuel pump's rod travel. Check the fuel pump stand for a warped base. Almost all of them I see are warped which would cause the rod not to move the diaphragm in the pump the full amount. Last edited by Flathead Fever; 11-13-2018 at 10:36 PM.

11-14-2018, 11:23 AM	#7
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem JSeery,JKS, AND Flathead Fever: Thanks for your import! You all gave me advice I will use once my hands thaw out! I do appreciate your suggestions sincerely Ron.

11-14-2018, 09:55 PM	#8
Tinker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: MN Posts: 7,053	Re: fuel pump problem Easy way to rule out if you are getting fuel is to bottle feed the carb. If it fires then fuel, if it doesn't it might be electrical. Doesn't take much fuel. be careful.

11-16-2018, 10:08 AM	#10
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: fuel pump problem Guys, Just to clear the air, Ron sent me the carb sometime back and as he stated the car ran but poorly. He recently at my request returned the carb and pump. The carb performed as it should on my test motor but the pump was less than marginal, ( not one of my pumps honest ). I rebuilt the pump to my specs and installed the carb and pump on my test motor and all was 100%. Near immediate self priming, 2 1/2 psi, carb very smooth. Ron and I work well together but the 750 or so miles between us isn't so good for trouble shooting. Anybody near Ron in Mass that could do a face to face? Charlie ny

11-16-2018, 10:37 AM	#11
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem Hey Charlie, that was nice of you to post that request for help. I have not had a chance to get out in the driveway to continue with my dilemma. I will follow the many suggestions I received from fellow Barners. Thanks for your continued support. Ron

11-16-2018, 12:07 PM	#12
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: fuel pump problem Well, sounds like the carb and fuel pump are tested and good, so if it is a fuel issue it would about have to be the fuel line feed the pump, tank outlet ect. Or the fuel pump rod in not working correctly, too short or cam lobe issue. I would still bet on an electrical problem and eliminate that first. If the intake is primed with some fuel, it should fire up and attempt to run. If you are up to it, a slow input into the intake should keep it running. If it is determined it is not an electrical problem you can connect a fuel source directly to the fuel pump input, some type of gas can on the cowl that is plumbed to fit and see how that works. Second set of eyes sure might be helpful!

11-16-2018, 01:13 PM	#13
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: fuel pump problem I've just about experienced all the fuel delivery problems you can have. Here are most thet I can remember. Fuel tank cap has to be vented or the tank has to be vented. The tank should be clean. They tend to get about a 1/2" or more of varnish crap build up after 35+ years. The standpipe in the tank has to be clear of obstructions. A small floating glob of crap or moving debris can block the stand pipe. The fuel line has to be clear all the way to the flex line at the firewall. The flex line has to fully contain fuel as well as vacuum as was already mentioned. If the pump has been tested independently of the engine then a person has to insure the pump rod is going through an acceptable amount of travel to properly operate the pump. The line to the carb has to be clear and the float bowl should fill if all is well. There are all the simple tests that can be done as was already mentioned for the most part. Floating or other moving debris in the tank would have to be visually checked since there is really no other way to check for that. If the other tests work then it should pump a good stream from the pump outlet when cranking the starter motor. If it doesn't then something was missed.

11-16-2018, 04:04 PM	#14
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem Jseery and Rotorwrench: Thank you both for your thoughts. Everyone has been so helpful. Now its my turn to incorporate these suggestions and get that sucker running again! Ron

11-17-2018, 11:01 AM	#15
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,923	Re: fuel pump problem Is the fuel pump push rod is too short or perhaps worn? The height of the fuel pump stand on the intake might be too high. Make sure the screws that hold the top and bottom of the pump together are snug.

11-17-2018, 03:40 PM	#16
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem 19Fordy et al: Got out there today. No fuel at carb when I move the throttle linkage. Removed flex tube at fuel line, blew through it, no obstruction to the tank. Since the pump was rebuilt by the best guy out there, I feel the problem might lie with the pump rod. My next step would be to remove the pump and stand and reinstall it. However, I don't feel confident that is the problem! Because, when I installed the pump and stand, it sat above the manifold a little but I applied a little pressure,and it seated flush. I'm pretty sure that I had the pump cap installed correctly over the pump rod. Maybe I should measure the pump rod? What else could it be? I checked all my connections? Not sure what the next step should be?

11-17-2018, 03:55 PM	#17
RobR'35 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Upper Peninsula, Michigan Posts: 604	Re: fuel pump problem .200" movement is what the lobe on the cam should be measured at the end of the fuel pump rod. Rod lengths are 7.872 or 8.872

11-17-2018, 05:20 PM	#18
jimvette59 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Perry OH Posts: 1,329	Re: fuel pump problem Since you had to thaw out your hands could you get the car in a warmer place maybe the cold is effecting some thing ?? JMHO

11-17-2018, 05:29 PM	#19
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem RobR'35 AND JimVette59: Today was mild about 50 degrees when I was out there. Thanks for the specs. I'm really leaning towards the rod length! I know that it maybe unlikely, but I have to rule it out or in?

11-17-2018, 05:54 PM	#20
artron9 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Lexington MA Posts: 133	Re: fuel pump problem RobR: My car is a 1952 Crestline Vic. The original chassis parts book shows the length of the rod to be between 10.64-10.79". It also shows a bushing as part of the assembly. I don't recall seeing a bushing unless it is below and part of the cam lobe. Mac's has only one rod size designated as 10 1/16".