So far, so good on mystery engine

[Nosetime]

Greeting gentleman. With a lot of help and advice here I got my unknown history 29 engine running great a few months back. Did all the mandated stuff, and was so very lucky to find what appeared to be a good motor. Compression was 65 psi. Pulled the head, after great difficulty to find all the passages packed by mice or some other outside agency. A few broken head studs. Found what appears to be fresh .60 over pistons with no ridge in bore, so far so good. Crank pulley was really loose and wobbly. After pulling engine I found old brazing work on an original pulley shaft, but after getting it off found a nice looking crank gear and timing gear! Had similar looking braze work on oil pump shaft. Have not speced with plastigauge, but I think I have a fresh rebuilt motor that was put away many years ago! Blown head gasket and the expected stuff from a motor not attended to for over 20 years. Clutch and PS plate look good. I am really excited to spec bottom end and go forward. Plan is B distributor, gear cover( which I have) and new drive, new oil pump, crank pulley, High Compression head, downdraft manifold and stromberg or strombergs depending on manifold... looking for vintage or period correct parts. At this point should I look at doing the Cam?

[1930artdeco]

Get a 'B' grind at the least for a hi comp head. You might as well change it out as long as you are there.

Mike

[lindy williams]

those two piece timing gears do not last. Get rid of it now before you install the engine. I'm sure others have had similar bad experience with them as I have had.

[700rpm]

The timing gear in your photo looks out of correct position by one tooth.

[redmodelt]

I 2ed replacing the 2 piece cam gear while the engine is out. They are know for coming apart and it's a lot more work to do in the car then out. Good eye Ray, does look one tooth off. Maybe that's why it's in good shape, they could not get it to run right.

[Nosetime]

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Thanks, both of those are a concern and will absolutley be looking at it as I move forward.

[James Rogers]

If this engine was run any at all and put up to rest for several years, I would take out the crank and make sure the oil feed tubes are clear. I get lots of engines in that fail with new parts that are removed from storage where the oil left in the engine turns to hard blockages when it dries out,

Just a little food for thought that might save you a rebuild of a good motor.

I also believe the timing is off by one tooth.

[zzlegend]

When I had mine torn down like you, I installed an aluminum cam gear, and a Bill Stipe 330 cam, and adjustable lifters. A cam and a head really wake those motors up. Just my 2 1/2 cents. Good luck with it.

[Nosetime]

Thanks James. We did discuss that probability and will consider that. Ran out of time last night and will get back out there on saturday. I have not done my home work yet, but just assumed the dimple on crank and timing gear should line up at TDC no. 1? I had not really looked too close, but believe you guys are right. If so, why did it run so well timed correctly? Any reason someone would do that intentionally or just bad assembly? ZZ, when I get this apart I will get in touch with you this weekend, seems you have already done everything I'm looking at! Thanks, Greg

[Nosetime]

Sorry, one more thing. When i originally pulled the pan there was about a 1/4" of light sludge. Nothing like some of the pictures of other mothballed motors I have seen. Only reason I mention it is that would indicate to me it had not sat as long as previous owner thought?....there were a couple of owners who did not try to run it before I bought it.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you get another one of those bad two piece cam gears, they make nice rear tractor wheels for a toy tractor, or desk display.

[Nosetime]

Ha ha thanks Tom! It will go to trash can

[Tom Wesenberg]

I hate to see anything like that thrown away because many people make art objects from old parts. Someone made a nice lawn chair out of junk Model A wheels.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Nosetime

Thanks James. We did discuss that probability and will consider that. Ran out of time last night and will get back out there on saturday. I have not done my home work yet, but just assumed the dimple on crank and timing gear should line up at TDC no. 1? I had not really looked too close, but believe you guys are right. If so, why did it run so well timed correctly? Any reason someone would do that intentionally or just bad assembly? ZZ, when I get this apart I will get in touch with you this weekend, seems you have already done everything I'm looking at! Thanks, Greg

I looked again and the marks are definitely wrong and, they will never line up at TDC. The piston should be down about 1" when the marks align and the valves are open on #1.

[johnneilson]

That looks like a "B" block, if so, be very careful pulling those studs out.
You do not want to have to use an insert in that deck.
If HC head, definitely do the cam, you may want a little hotter than a stock "B".
Also, adjustable lifters, not single lock style unless you like adjusting.
Recommend having flywheel lightened and change to V8 clutch, very noticeable for driving.
Yep, cam timing is off one tooth in pic, no worries, you will get it right when back together.
You may want to contact Jim Brierley and get his book(s), best use of a $20 bill I have found.

Enjoy the Hobby, John

[foxfire42]

In picture number 4 I think I can see an oil return pipe so not likely it's a B block.

[johnneilson]

could be right, I see that also now.

I was looking at the deck pic and the main bolts look pretty far apart.

John

[redmodelt]

Re I have not done my home work yet, but just assumed the dimple on crank and timing gear should line up at TDC no. 1?
No, you line up the dimple on the cam gear with the mark on crank gear to get everything in proper mesh only, that is not TDC. When the dimple lines up with the timing pin on the cover, that will be TDC for one of 2 cycles (compression or exhaust).

[Nosetime]

Thanks to everyone. Serial number dates block to 29, but who knows what its been through. I emailed Jim Brierly and bought a copy of his book today. Funny how the best laid plans go... I initially thought I might just check mains and rods, throw on a timing gear and crank pulley and be done. New plan is to be patient and not have regrets later. John, I am very interested in the flywheel/clutch sugguestion. I do remember we used to lighten the Flywheels and 8 pin them on VW motors and what a difference. I need more info on how that affects low end torque on the A's...not looking to build a high rev motor, but perk it up a bit and keep the RPM's down for longevity. As far as cam goes, I do not want to completely disassemble engine and do any machine work. Is it possible to change cam and lifters without doing so? I have adjustable lifters, but have not really looked to see what I have yet. Will post some pics this weekend. Thanks again to all!

[Nosetime]

Thanks to Mark, ZZlegend for the encouragement and advice! I did also edit my last post with more info re: flywheel and clutch if you might scroll up and advise. I had intended to post some pics of bearings, but need a damn 19/32 socket...nothing I have comes close. Lucky for me, in the morning is Long Beach Hi Po swap meet and there I have I found all my weird Model A tools.

[700rpm]

You will have to remove your valve spring keepers and pull your valves up off the lifters enough so when you turn the block upside down the lifters can fall away from the cam; then you can pull the cam out. You may as well remove the old ones and put new valve springs in while you're this close; they aren't expensive. Then reset your valve clearances after you install the new cam. May consider new valves, guides, and even valve seats. Then there's pistons (you "think" are fresh), piston pins, rings, cylinder wear, bearings...

As you can see, this can mushroom into a full engine rebuild.

This may affect your other plans about carbs, manifolds, heads, etc.

[katy]

When the dimple lines up with the timing pin on the cover, that will be TDC for one of 2 cycles (compression or exhaust).

Last time I checked, with the pin in the dimple, it was only at TDC at the end of the compression stroke.

[Chris Haynes]

I have several 19/32 sockets. They used to be part of a Craftsman socket set.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by katy

Last time I checked, with the pin in the dimple, it was only at TDC at the end of the compression stroke.

Incorrect, the crankshaft turns 2 X for every turn of the camshaft - so you can be 180 degrees out.

[Nosetime]

Well, got out to the swap I and got a nice Plumb 19/32" socket, but it does not fit my rod bolts? Nothing does...my Dad remembers there was some weird English nuts and bolts in the 50's that were phased out, maybe what I have here? But, I went to swap with my best friends who are a fabricator and mechanic and persuaded them with beer to come by and attack my remaining headstuds. I had previously gotten out 4 and broke 4. Got the TIG welder fired up, the MAP gas, Kroil, impact wrench and 3 hours later got all of them out! A lot of work, to be sure, and I think if I had to do it again, not so bad! I need a break from grease for a while, time to go surfing!

[Nosetime]

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Any Idea why all my photos post sideways, then are correct in my Mac Book photo library, but screwed up when I post?

[700rpm]

Originally Posted by Nosetime

Well, got out to the swap I and got a nice Plumb 19/32" socket, but it does not fit my rod bolts? Nothing does...my Dad remembers there was some weird English nuts and bolts in the 50's that were phased out, maybe what I have here? But, I went to swap with my best friends who are a fabricator and mechanic and persuaded them with beer to come by and attack my remaining headstuds. I had previously gotten out 4 and broke 4. Got the TIG welder fired up, the MAP gas, Kroil, impact wrench and 3 hours later got all of them out! A lot of work, to be sure, and I think if I had to do it again, not so bad! I need a break from grease for a while, time to go surfing!

I think what you want is 21/32". That was the size of original rod nuts.

[Nosetime]

700, thanks, I think thats what we figured, I did not really look, just went by book recommendation. Really easy mistake not to make, but I seem to make those from time to time!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Since the timing dimple is in the cam gear, it will be the correct timing mark for TDC firing on number 1 each time the pin drops into the dimple.

Those of you who time the engine off the crankshaft will have the timing mark show up twice for each time number one piston fires.

[Nosetime]

New plan is to go through this entire engine, not rebuild if at all possible, but inspect, and reassemble. I have 2 rods that looked as if they had no shims, but after getting one off there was a shim on only one side?, but the babbit looks good to me and the journal looks ok. I have yet to look at anything else yet, but to be honest I feel like if I can get lucky here and get a motor that might be good for 3-5,000 miles or more, its a win for me. This will really be a a Sunday driver, fun car. Here is my first look at the rod in question. I am out of time today, so later in the week I can look at the rest. Photo to follow.

[Nosetime]

Pic of Rod and crank.

[Tom Wesenberg]

That looks good, and don't worry about lack of shims until the clearance becomes too great. Then it will be time for a rebuild, but in the meantime you can put on a lot of miles without spending your retirement fund. Just drive right and keep it full of clean oil.

[zzlegend]

Agree.

[glenn in camino]

Definitely replace the timing gear with one made of bronze or aluminum. soak the studs with Kroil overnight. Replace everything that was brazed with new parts. I'd hone the cylinders and put in new rings.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Nosetime

Well, got out to the swap I and got a nice Plumb 19/32" socket, but it does not fit my rod bolts? Nothing does...my Dad remembers there was some weird English nuts and bolts in the 50's that were phased out, maybe what I have here? But, I went to swap with my best friends who are a fabricator and mechanic and persuaded them with beer to come by and attack my remaining headstuds. I had previously gotten out 4 and broke 4. Got the TIG welder fired up, the MAP gas, Kroil, impact wrench and 3 hours later got all of them out! A lot of work, to be sure, and I think if I had to do it again, not so bad! I need a break from grease for a while, time to go surfing!

Try a 15MM socket.

[Nosetime]

My luck may have run out. I know why I could not find the right socket for rod bolts, they are different on 2 of the rods. Pulled #2 and #4 rod caps and they looked good, as well as the crank journals, but then found # 3 and # 1 with some small divots in the Babbitt in rod caps. The crank looks perfect and the babbitt on the other side of both affected rods looks good. I do not have a tremendous amount of money in this to date and yes, I know what "should be done", but am hopeful to hear some "put it back together comments"! I have realistic expectations here and would just like to get this project on the road for a hobby car. I have had a rough go the last several years and this project is important to me. I have a couple more years of child support, braces and college that come first and foremost. Thanks to all for you help and expertise, man I have learned a LOT about Model A's and Ford history and don't think i will give up too easily. What should I do with this? Going back down to the garage now and pull the main caps and see what the heck I have going on....crossed fingers!

[Flathead]

If the rest of the babbitt is there and the clearance is good, I would forget I ever saw those "divots" in the bearing. If you are trying to get by, you can tighten up the clearance by carefully sanding the cap on a known flat surface. We all know plenty of people who have done this.

[michael a]

Originally Posted by Nosetime

My luck may have run out. I know why I could not find the right socket for rod bolts, they are different on 2 of the rods. Pulled #2 and #4 rod caps and they looked good, as well as the crank journals, but then found # 3 and # 1 with some small divots in the Babbitt in rod caps. The crank looks perfect and the babbitt on the other side of both affected rods looks good. I do not have a tremendous amount of money in this to date and yes, I know what "should be done", but am hopeful to hear some "put it back together comments"! I have realistic expectations here and would just like to get this project on the road for a hobby car. I have had a rough go the last several years and this project is important to me. I have a couple more years of child support, braces and college that come first and foremost. Thanks to all for you help and expertise, man I have learned a LOT about Model A's and Ford history and don't think i will give up too easily. What should I do with this? Going back down to the garage now and pull the main caps and see what the heck I have going on....crossed fingers!

If it were me in your situation I would invest and some Emery cloth using it with the paper side out and the good side in I would polish the heck out of that put some motor assembly grease on it put it together and call it good. I would much rather have a scab of .015 then a protrusion of .002. You won't be turning this motor over 2500 RPMs I wouldn't think.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

[Nosetime]

I guess i'm done. Pulled the rear main and well, thanks for everyones help the last 6 months, but don't think I will be going forward anytime soon. Greg

[Tom Wesenberg]

If the clearances are good, I'd put it back together and run it. You can get a lot of miles out of that yet. In the meantime you can save up for a babbit job when or if this gets noisy.

[Nosetime]

Tom, even with the main like that? Would I try to JB weld it or just put it back in? This is so different than modern bearing stuff I”m used to. I would think the crank would look worse. I will pull the rest apart this morning

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Nosetime

Tom, even with the main like that? Would I try to JB weld it or just put it back in? This is so different than modern bearing stuff I”m used to. I would think the crank would look worse. I will pull the rest apart this morning

That's the front thrust which doesn't have much force against it. Check the upper half in the block, which looks good in the picture. If it's good, you're golden. I recently rebuilt a couple of Suzuki Sidekick engines from the '90's. They use only the upper half of the thrust from the factory and no wear problems.
Be careful about using JB Weld if you decide to glue that piece back in. JB Weld is thick and may make that thrust piece stick out too far. I'd suggest just holding it in place with a dab of grease, put it back together, and enjoy for many miles.

[Nosetime]

Thanks 40, I did not sleep over this last night, and I am hopeful I can do just what you suggest! Tearing the rest down today, and hopefully the others look OK.
Greg

[100IH]

Unless I missed something, all of the recomendations have said " OK so long as the clearance is good". So have you measured with micrometers or used plactigage or used aluminum foil measuring methods. Heck even notebook paper will give you an idea of what the clearance is. If you are unsure how, do an advanced search for threads on bearing clearance. By the way, I grew up near Long Beach many years ago and rode my bicycle many times to Ford Parts Obsolete on Willow to get parts for my A projects.

[Nosetime]

Rod clearance is good, I am pulling the crank to clean and inspect and will reassemble to correct specs.

[Railcarmover]

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Going to the machine shop is not the end of the world.Even if you are going to 'hobby drive' the car peace of mind is worth the expense.Do it once, do it right. I faced the same gamble pulling down an engine I've got for a build..the rods and mains checked out, now I'm waiting for a machinist's straight edge to check the deck...pass that and I can assemble.