The new Burtz Mosel A engine

[Jim Brierley]

Yesterday I was pleased to be invited to a seminar on Terry's new engine. I didn't take a head count but there must have been about 25-30 guys there. It was hosted by Richard Parrish in Anaheim, CA. I was asked to talk about and compare the A and the B engines, Richard had one of each on display. I wish Richard had shown the new engine earlier, although it was a better build-up saving it for last. Showing it earlier would have lead me to talk about how improved the new engine is compared the originals. The crank is a thing of beauty, and the 5 mains and larger bearings will add to the engines in several ways, the rigidity stabilizes it, and making it more rigid saves on bearing wear by eliminating flexing, which also helps the rear flange, a problem when racing these engines. I'll need to study how a filter is utilized, I believe in filters, and will want to put one on my new engine. The rods look to be much stronger than stockers, but I have never had a problem with stock rods, it is good to know that they are forged. I'll probably run a V8 oil pump but the new engine will likely not leak as much oil internally as a stock engine, so the stock pump will probably be enough? The new engine also is set up for 5 cam bearings, but an original 3-bearing cam cam also be used. It was a great day indeed!!!

I started this as a new thread because the older one is 7 pages long, and had gotten a bit diversified.

[Lawrie]

Jim , I,m in the process of making 7 oil filter kits for the new engine, I will post some pics later today.
An easy job, specially if you have a lathe.
I even used some old ford stuff to make it, the special bolt on the timing cover where the clean oil goes backing the engine, I made from an old Model A driveshaft.
Lawrie

[SteveB31]

I had to opportunity last fall to be the test guy for this engine. After in shop testing we put it in my coupe, which has a very strong engine in it already.

Due to the crankshaft design, the torque was amazing. My coupe ran so good In the mountains that I did not want to take it out and give it back to Terry.

Looking forward to building a bunch of these this summer.

Steve @ Bert’s

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

I had to opportunity last fall to be the test guy for this engine. After in shop testing we put it in my coupe, which has a very strong engine in it already.

Due to the crankshaft design, the torque was amazing. My coupe ran so good In the mountains that I did not want to take it out and give it back to Terry.

Looking forward to building a bunch of these this summer.

Steve @ Bert’s

What head did you use on your test?

[GeneBob]

I would like to build one of these.
Jim Brierley, I was thinking of going with a Bill Stipe oil pump to ensure sufficient oil volume to run an oil filter with full pressure to the bearings.
Carl, as far as the head, after building this engine up, I would want to run the best performance head I could afford.

[Jim Brierley]

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GeneBob, Stipe does nice work. I'll probably run a modified '49-'53 V8 pump, using an adapter built by John Nielson, a sometime contributor on this forum. Terry says the A pump will do the job, and maybe so because his engine is built for pressure so doesn't have all the leak-points the stock engine has. I'll also run a filter a full-flow filter, it'll be nice to see what Laurie comes up with. I don't know how many engines Terry has sold, but the first 300 are all spoken for and he has more on order.

[Lawrie]

Jim, look at my post on the other new engine post.
Lawrie

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

GeneBob, Stipe does nice work. I'll probably run a modified '49-'53 V8 pump, using an adapter built by John Nielson, a sometime contributor on this forum. Terry says the A pump will do the job, and maybe so because his engine is built for pressure so doesn't have all the leak-points the stock engine has. I'll also run a filter a full-flow filter, it'll be nice to see what Laurie comes up with. I don't know how many engines Terry has sold, but the first 300 are all spoken for and he has more on order.

Jim, can you give me the particulars on the adapter John Nielson has for the V8 pump in the A block please?

[nomadpsd]

John has posted some pictures of his pump modification on the HAMB.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...1222658/page-5

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by nomadpsd

John has posted some pictures of his pump modification on the HAMB.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...1222658/page-5

Thanks, got 'em

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by SteveB31

I had to opportunity last fall to be the test guy for this engine. After in shop testing we put it in my coupe, which has a very strong engine in it already.

Due to the crankshaft design, the torque was amazing. My coupe ran so good In the mountains that I did not want to take it out and give it back to Terry.

Looking forward to building a bunch of these this summer.

Steve @ Bert’s

What is it regarding the crank that gives more torque? Is a longer throw?

[California Travieso]

I’m on the list to receive an engine kit in the second shipment in June. I’d be be interested to hear what other peripherals you guys plan to install, e.g., heads, Cams, intake & exhaust manifolds, carbs, etc., as well as, mufflers.

It would also be interesting to see videos of the completed engines and to hear them running.

David Serrano

[Chris Haynes]

Joe at Turlock Machine makes a billet oil pump using Small Block Chevy gears and valves.

[updraught]

Macs has the Mellings gears on sale

https://www.macsautoparts.com/model-...8-28451-1.html

[Jim Brierley]

Chuck, I doubt if the Burtz crank produces more torque, they are the same stroke. The port design may help, and some engines just run better for no apparent reason. The 5 mains will stabilize the crank, which will help in several other ways, including longevity.

[johnneilson]

More than likely it was a lighter flywheel that gave the impression of more torque

Also, the Mell k 18 gear set is the model a set
The k 19 is the v8 pump set

J

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

As Jim says, the "New" engine has the same stroke as stock.

The intake ports of the new cylinder block are the same larger size (1.50-inch diameter) as a Model B engine, and the intake passages of the new cylinder block have been streamlined and straightened by reducing the total number of bends. In the new design cylinder block, the intake charge flows into the intake port, and then makes an immediate horizontal 45 degree turn either left or right, and then a 90-degree vertical turn to get to the underside of the intake valve (total angular change is 135 degrees). The intake port in a stock Model A or B engine continues straight for a short distance before making the turn towards the valve (total angular change is greater than 135 degrees).

[Pete]

I like the Dan Price oil pump for a wet sump engine. It has a built in adjustable, calibrated by-pass valve. No mods needed to install.

[Dave in MN]

Just opened my engine kit that arrived today. Pretty impressive casting and machining. I only checked the cylinders so far and they are .0043" larger than the solid skirt pistons I plan to use. I just glanced at the crankshaft and rods. They look just as good as the block. Good stuff! Thanks Terry!
Good Day!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

More than likely it was a lighter flywheel that gave the impression of more torque

Also, the Mell k 18 gear set is the model a set
The k 19 is the v8 pump set

J

Hey J,
You’re correct!
The flywheel is a 30 lb. It is what is sold with the engine kit. Said to be balanced to the crank set up.

[buckwild 27]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey J,
You’re correct!
The flywheel is a 30 lb. It is what is sold with the engine kit. Said to be balanced to the crank set up.

I believe they're all balanced separately so you can change out any part and it wouldn't throw off everything.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by buckwild 27

I believe they're all balanced separately so you can change out any part and it wouldn't throw off everything.

I did some checking.
I agree with you !
GREAT equipment !!

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

buckwild 27,

You are correct,

All of the new engine parts are balanced separately, and any new part balanced separately can be substituted.

Match marks are not needed because every part is balanced separately.

Instead of balancing parts separately, rebuilding shops save time to maximize profit by balancing an assembly. This requires match marks on every part for proper reassembly.

If any part of the assembly is changed, the complete assembly of parts needs to be rebalanced as an assembly and new match marks are needed.

[Dan McEachern]

Just a shout out to Terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall Terry- you deserve it. Dan

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by dan mceachern

just a shout out to terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall terry- you deserve it. Dan

x2

j

[hardtimes]

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Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

Just a shout out to Terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall Terry- you deserve it. Dan

I agree !
Already have your bronze gear set on a Jim B 5 bearing cam going into Terry’s new engine kit !!

[motordr]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

Just a shout out to Terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall Terry- you deserve it. Dan

X3! This engine kit is just magnificent! thank you Terry.

[Tail Dragger]

Working on mine tonight. Seriously impressed with the quality and excited to get it running. Everything is ready to go, just waiting on a cam, head and flywheel. Only “issue” I’m having is that I thought I cleaned out all the sand from the water jacket but after driving the valve guides in with an air hammer, I broke more free....lots more. Any tricks to get it all out?

[Synchro909]

I am hearing report that there is quite a bit of loose sand in the water jacket and swarf in the oil passages making a thorough cleaning essential. It's not that I would assemble an engine without a thorough cleaning and I don't expect these new engines to be ready to assemble. What are the experiences over there on that issue. I'm considering a sealer of some sort in the water jacket to capture the grit.
Comments/experiences please.

[Tail Dragger]

Completed about 6 cycles of running a coat hanger in the passages, hosing for 2-3 minutes, compressed air, heat gun to dry, and compressed air again. There’s still a little more sand coming loose each time but I think I got the majority of it. A reputable individual with first hand experience with this motor said to run it, shouldn’t hurt anything. I ran a rifle cleaning brush through the oil passages with some solvent and got nothing, so that’s good. Got the main seal today and will be installing the pistons and crank. The thrust bearings absolutely needed sanding to fit the crank and achieve proper end play. The flathead screws that secure the thrust bearings are slightly proud of the thrust bearing surface and need filing down. Pictures coming soon. Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought I’d share my experience.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Tail Dragger

Completed about 6 cycles of running a coat hanger in the passages, hosing for 2-3 minutes, compressed air, heat gun to dry, and compressed air again. There’s still a little more sand coming loose each time but I think I got the majority of it. A reputable individual with first hand experience with this motor said to run it, shouldn’t hurt anything. I ran a rifle cleaning brush through the oil passages with some solvent and got nothing, so that’s good. Got the main seal today and will be installing the pistons and crank. The thrust bearings absolutely needed sanding to fit the crank and achieve proper end play. The flathead screws that secure the thrust bearings are slightly proud of the thrust bearing surface and need filing down. Pictures coming soon. Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought I’d share my experience.

I understand Terry is aware of the issue with the screws standing proud in the thrust rings and is including the correct ones with each motor. Some grit in the water jacket shouldn't be the end of the world but junk in the oil ways is another matter.

[Tail Dragger]

Got the crank and pistons in tonight, what an ordeal, The Clevite CB-745P STD bearings DO NOT sit flush with the surface of the saddle or caps. There's an interference fit when trying to set the bearing caps on the crank. I absolutely could not rotate the crank by hand the first time I installed only bearing caps 1 and 5 just hand tight. I realized right away there was an issue and got on the phone. I was able to get some official numbers to check and ask some questions. After getting off the phone, I checked the journal DIA and bore, both were within spec, must be the bearings.

With oversized bearings being suspect (circumference not thickness), I used my table saw as a flat surface and 400 grit sandpaper to "file" the ends down of each bearing, reducing their half circumferences. I also used a file to take off corners that may be interfering with the studs (yes I was using the correct studs) on bearing caps 1 and 3. 6 hours later, the crank could be rotated by hand with all caps torqued down to 55 ft-lbs. It's not silky but it'll do considering the crank can be rotated with a moderate force using a few fingers.

It's important to note that 2 of the caps didn't have a large enough reliefs cut for the notches in the bearings, requiring the bearing notch to be filed down slightly. This wasn't a big ordeal and was easy to spot/correct.

On to pistons/con rods. They went in beautifully. Going from hand tight to torque, I did notice additional resistance but it wasn't bad.

Full disclosure.....I am not an engine guy by any means. This is 1 of 3 engines I've ever built/rebuilt. I'm used to things just going together so this was indeed a bit frustrating but given the specialty of the motor, I'm not upset about running into issues. I will say, the manual could be a bit better with more concise step by step instructions and images. I'm absolutely looking forward to getting this thing running and can't wait to finish the car.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Taildrager,

Thanks for your comments.

With your "screen" name, are you planning to use the "New Engine" in an airplane?

Since this is the 3rd engine that you have worked on, do you have someone that can help you? Your helper should be familiar with '60s and newer engines.

Regarding the flat head screws to hold the thrust bearings, Syncro909 is correct, the ones from China had thick heads and they were replaced with thin head screws. I know that all engines distributed in the USA and Canada had thin head screws substituted and that our distributors in Australia and Europe knew of the problem before distribution.

Regarding your main bearing insert problem, the half-shells are not round before assembly and they should protrude above the parting line. Hand tightening main caps 1 and 5 is not enough pressure to force the insert half-shells to become circular and that is why the crankshaft was hard to turn. The half-shells become round and the equivalent of a press-fit when torqued to 55 lb-ft.

After getting off the phone, I'm happy that the main bearing bore and crankshaft journal diameters of the "New Engine" were within specification.

By removing material from the ends of the inserts with 400 grit sandpaper on the table of your saw, you have destroyed your inserts. When torqued to 55 lb-ft, there is not enough material on the end of the insert to force it to become round and the equivalent of a press fit. The only thing keeping your inserts from spinning in the cylinder block are the bearing tabs. This is not good. A spun bearing will damage the cylinder block.

Fortunately, inserts with larger outside diameters are available, but to use these, the cylinder block bores need to be enlarged.

The connecting rods use the same insert, journal diameter, and housing diameter. I'm curious as to why there were no problems and happy that everything fits.

Terry Burtz

[Synchro909]

The way the inserts stand proud of the block is what we call "crush". Maybe you guys use the same term but Terry is right, they should be about 0.003 or 4" high so that when the cap is torqued down, they are forced into the block. That serves two purposes - to make them round and help stop them spinning in the block. There should be nothing between the cast iron of the block and the inserts.

[denniskliesen]

If I may, I would like to add as I was taught and have built more engines that I can remember in the past, but each and every engine I have put together I checked clearance with plastic gage. Every parts store that I know of carries it. I don’t like to have to drive everywhere chasing down simple things like this and sealers that are needed so I just order most of what I can from Amazon and have it the next day usually.

Another thing I would like to comment on, download the guides from Terry’s website, modelaengine.com. Those guides are much more complete.

Terry has done a fantastic job engineering and following up on this engine. I have always gotten answers from him if I asked. To me that means a lot and I certainly appreciate what he has done for us.

[SAJ]

Bearing crush is very important and checked by installing the bolt or bolts on only one side of the cap, whereupon the gap left on the opposite side between the cap faces can be measured with feeler gauges and compared with the crush specifications. Usually about 2 to 5 thou. Removing the crush will do exact,y what Terry says. And theni this case new soft plastigauge will give a false bearing clearance because it will crush without the shell being forced against the cap - the shell not being rounded by correct crush.
Old stifF plastigauge can give a different result here by partly forcing the shell into the cap before the plastic yields and flattens out.
SAJ in NZ

[Ray in La Mesa]

As SAJ says, Plasigauge gets hard over time, always use fresh & soft. I had some old, hard actually put a dent in my babbitt.

[Tail Dragger]

For clarification. I did torque 1 & 5 to 55 ft-lbs before removing to file. The crank was locked up and could not be turned by hand. Please advise what the expectation should be when correctly installing all bearings with torque. How much force should be required to rotate the crank?

My process:
The gentleman I learned from had me put bearings in on the furthermost location. In this case 1 and 5. Add lubrication, set on caps, LIGHTLY tap the caps with a deadblow to seat them, draw down bolts snugly, slightly rotate crank 1/4 turn to ensure no glaring issues, torque bolts. From there turn the crank feeling for resistance. Double check end play, check run out on exposed journals when rotating crank. If all checks out, pull crank and install remaining bearings.

[Richard Knight]

Tail dragger, As Terry and others have said "crush" is imperative to make the bearings round and tight in the block. If I were you I would get a new set of bearings and start over. I think the other part number is 2020CP if I remember correctly? Sometimes a different set of bearings can make a difference. Another set of eyes might help too especially if they are "pro". My engine count is north of 500, may be even a thousand ?? And yes I have done A's for pietenpol (sp?) airplane. Rick.

[Tail Dragger]

Looking for 2020CP bearings as I type this. I'd love the opportunity to hang an A motor on an Air Camper.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Tail Drager,

I am confused. The following are your words:

Got the crank and pistons in tonight, what an ordeal, The Clevite CB-745P STD bearings DO NOT sit flush with the surface of the saddle or caps. There's an interference fit when trying to set the bearing caps on the crank. I absolutely could not rotate the crank by hand the first time I installed only bearing caps 1 and 5 just hand tight. I realized right away there was an issue and got on the phone. I was able to get some official numbers to check and ask some questions. After getting off the phone, I checked the journal DIA and bore, both were within spec, must be the bearings.


For clarification. I did torque 1 & 5 to 55 ft-lbs before removing to file. The crank was locked up and could not be turned by hand. Please advise what the expectation should be when correctly installing all bearings with torque. How much force should be required to rotate the crank?


Were bearings 1 and 5 hand tightened or tightened to 55 lb-ft?

The "Builders Guide" that comes with the cylinder block is not complete and not up to date. Go to www.modelaengine.com and under "Guides", you will find the latest "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter".

Please take all of your parts to an engine builder along with the latest "Builders Guide". It will save you a lot of money and heartache.

Terry Burtz

[Ruth]

Following along as I am confused also and am interested in the outcome.

Originally Posted by Tail Dragger

Got the crank and pistons in tonight, what an ordeal, The Clevite CB-745P STD bearings DO NOT sit flush with the surface of the saddle or caps. There's an interference fit when trying to set the bearing caps on the crank. I absolutely could not rotate the crank by hand the first time I installed only bearing caps 1 and 5 just hand tight. I realized right away there was an issue and got on the phone. I was able to get some official numbers to check and ask some questions.

Originally Posted by Tail Dragger

For clarification. I did torque 1 & 5 to 55 ft-lbs before removing to file. The crank was locked up and could not be turned by hand. Please advise what the expectation should be when correctly installing all bearings with torque. How much force should be required to rotate the crank?

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

Tail Drager,

I am confused.


Terry Burtz

[alexiskai]

I think what he meant was:

1. I tightened them by hand
2. I couldn't turn the crank
3. I called Terry
4. After I called Terry I torqued them to 55 ft-lbs
5. I still couldn't turn the crank
6. Then I filed them down

[Tail Dragger]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I think what he meant was:

You've got it, however I talked to another individual involved with the product. Apologies for the confusion.

Before torqueing them down, I made the call. While on the call, I torqued them. The bearing caps never came back off or experienced more than a 1/4 turn on the crank before torqueing.

I'm stepping out to pick up the 2020cp bearings rather than the cb-745P that I had previously used once I hit send.

The motor is apart, cleaned and ready to go. The plan is to:

Inspect and clean new bearings
Drill bearings for the #2 and #4 oil passages
Install bearings dry
Install crank dry
Put plasti gauge on journals
Install caps dry
Torque hardware to 55 ft-lbs
Remove caps
Measure/record plasti gauges
Remove crank
Apply proper lubrication
Reinstall crank/caps (ensure all bearings stay in their original place) and torque to 55 ft-lbs
Celebrate!

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Tail Dragger,

I do not recommend using the Plasticgage dry.

The following is copied from the "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com

We recommend that main and connecting rod bearing clearances be verified to be .002 inch with oiled Plasticgage (SPG-1, range .001 to .003 inch). Oil prevents the deformed Plastigage from sticking to the journal or bearing shell.

If you want to speak with me on the phone, ask John Lampl for my number or send a private message.

Terry Burtz

[johnneilson]

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Just a couple random thoughts, the CB-745P is a direct cross to the 2020 it should make no difference unless incorrect or damaged.
Never assemble bearings and crank without oil. I use 90wt gear oil to check fit crank and then assembly lube on final assembly.

Make sure to clean the outside of bearing shell with solvent or acetone, you want no oil here in between bearing and bore. Same again for the bores in the block, absolutely clean. This is more for verifying no debris or dirt.

This is a newly machined assembly of parts, therefore some sense of investigation must be done upon assembly. Main and Rod bearings have a couple different places that can bind, diameter out of spec, width issue and fillet interference and the tangs.

I am sure the diameters are good, easy to verify though with the correct tools.
The crank has rolled fillets, I seriously doubt this is an issue, but could be.
The Tangs may not be cut deep enough, this again is easy to diagnose, assemble the bearing shells into the bores without the crank in place. You will see light under the shell once clamped in place. use flashlight on backside to illuminate.

[Tail Dragger]

Happy to chat however I can't message you because I don't have enough posts to gain access. I asked John for your number.

Here's one of the issues I've come across. The bearing notch in the #4 cap is not large enough to accept the bearing.

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Tail Dragger

Happy to chat however I can't message you because I don't have enough posts to gain access.

Tail Dragger,

You already have 9 posts. You only need 10. Please respond to this post to make your 10.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldredford]

So these engine blocks are made in China?

[denniskliesen]

Yes, they are made in China

Tail Dragger, I can see part of your problem. You need to take each one of your inserts and check for fit in the notches. Don’t force them in, you could have a burr in the notch holding it out. Go to your hardware store or someplace where they sell needle files. Usually it only takes a small amount of filing to remove a burr if there is one present, don’t over do it! . Make sure all of the caps and your block is clean and free of any debris. When you install one of the inserts carefully and gently start the tab in the notch. Gently with your thumbs push the insert down. I push one end all the way on one side then the other rocking it about a 1/16” on each side and rotating from one side to the other then both ends even with the mating surface. As Terry mentioned in the guide, you might need to file a corner of the insert to provide clearance from the stud. There is no excuse or shame to find a professional engine rebuilder to help you on this. Reading your posts you have ruined your bearings. Get a new set and take it to somebody that can help you. Everybody here has given you good advice, but you need to listen to what they tell you.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

I spoke with Tail Dragger on the phone this afternoon a couple of times and we exchanged text messages.

His earlier phone conversation was with John Lampl. He got my phone number from John.

He bought a new set of Federal Mogul 2020-CP standard inserts for the main bearings to replace the ones that were sanded.

One of the intermediate main bearing caps on his new engine had a notch that was not wide enough for the new bearing insert tab. Tail Dragger used a Dremel tool to widen the notch that allowed the bearing insert tab to fit with a slight clearance.

The new bearing inserts were installed in the cylinder block followed by the crankshaft.

The new bearing inserts were installed in the main bearing caps (after the notch was widened) and oiled Plastigage was laid across all inserts in the main caps.

The main bearing caps had their fasteners torqued to 55 lb-ft and then the caps were removed.

The Plastigage readings on all 5 main bearings agree with the tolerances specified in the Clevite Bearing Catalog (https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/me...s/eb-20-18.pdf) for CB-745P inserts.

Tail Dragger then cleaned off the Plastigage and reassembled everything with oil and is happy about the fit and how the crankshaft rotates.

I asked him to post his findings on FordBarn. Perhaps he can add more details.

[Chris in WNC]

I stopped using Plastigauge many years ago.
the go/no-go method using aluminum foil is easier and I believe more accurate.

[HD Rider]

After building many engines over the years one thing I have notice about bearing shells. If you look at the backside of the shell, some shells are laser etched with name size ect. others are stamped. If the stamping process gets carried away (stamped too hard) material raises up causing a tight spot. Removing the raised material around the letters/numbers with a file fixes the problem. Remove only the raised material being careful not to file away any of the surrounding shell.

[Tail Dragger]

First and foremost, I cant speak highly enough of Terry Burtz and John Lampl. They both took time out of their day to help methodically go through the issues and find a solution. Customer service is just as important as quality in my book, and those 2 hit it out of the park.

I'm pleased to say, we now have a freely turning crank without any wear marks on the bearings.

Summary:

Cause of initial problem with crank locking up - A combination of my inexperience and undersized slots on the bearing caps for the anti-rotation lugs. The anti-rotation slots on bearing caps #1, #2 and #4 were undersized which caused the crank to seize when torqued. My inexperience led me to believe the Clevite CB745P bearings were at fault, so I proceeded to file down the bearing ends to provide more clearance. Variability between bearing color and anti-rotation notch size influenced that rookie decision.

Undersized notches


Bearing in undersized notch


Variability of Clevite bearings


Proper example of notch clearance can be seen on the block, which had no issues


The solution - New Federal Mogul 2020CP bearings were purchased. It's important to note that there appears to be more uniformity with the Mogul bearings over Clevite bearings. A dremel tool with fiber cut-off wheel was used to enlarge the bearing anti-rotation notch in bearing cap #4, A needle file was used to clean up an slightly enlarge the notches in bearing caps #1 and #2. Upon inspection, there appeared to be adequate notch clearance so everything was meticulously cleaned and prepared. The bearings and crank were installed followed by bearings/caps with oiled plastigauge. Hardware was torqued to 30 ft-lbs from the center of the crank moving outward and again at 55 ft-lbs to achieve the specified torque value. The plasigauge readings were as follows:

Journals
1A - .002"
1B - .001"
2 - .002"
3A - .001"-
3B - .001"
4 - .0015"
5A - .0035"
5B - .0035"

The caps/crank were removed, everything reinstalled with proper lubrication. Upon torqueing the hardware, it was apparent we had found a solution to the problem as the crank rotated beautifully. Endplay was rechecked and found to be .0035", within specification.


Conclusion - At the end of the day, with the help of Terry and this forum, we got the crank in and functioning properly....a big win if you ask me. I can't imagine the logistics that go into producing such a specialized product as this and therefore respect all involved with making it come to fruition. This was a big learning experience for me and hopefully will become a resource for others. Terry mentioned he's going to revisit the tool path for the notches to ensure future caps are correct. Looking forward to completing this build and installing the engine in the car. Thanks everyone.


Lessons learned:
Thoroughly clean the water jacket to remove sand and debris. A 7" wire was found inside the jacket.
Do not modify bearings.
Mogul 2020CP bearings appear to be of higher quality than Clevite CB-745P.
Inspect bearing anti-rotation notch clearance.
Fully torque caps down before attempting to move the crank.
Only measure critical clearance when oiled.
I have a lot to learn.

[hardtimes]

Read the 'guide' instructions...thoroughly ! At one point it instructs....don't measure clearance DRY !

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

I stopped using Plastigauge many years ago.
the go/no-go method using aluminum foil is easier and I believe more accurate.

Chris,
The aluminum foil method works for Babbitt bearings but not so well with insert bearings. The use of Plastigage, as Terry Burtz suggests in his engine building guide, with the insert and shaft fully oiled is the proper method for checking the oil clearance for this engine. Never dry!
I will be starting to de-bur and clean mine this weekend. I expect it to go together without issues.
Good Day!

[Tail Dragger]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Chris,
The aluminum foil method works for Babbitt bearings but not so well with insert bearings. The use of Plastigage, as Terry Burtz suggests in his engine building guide, with the insert and shaft fully oiled is the proper method for checking the oil clearance for this engine. Never dry!
I will be starting to de-bur and clean mine this weekend. I expect it to go together without issues.
Good Day!

Oil was applied to surfaces during initial assembly, torqueing and plastiguage inspection. Additional lubrication was added prior to final assembly. nothing was assembled or measured dry.

[Russ/40]

Very well documented Tail Dragger ! This is a good heads up for everyone. I'm sometime away from putting mine together, and knowing about the caps that won't be missed for sure. I'll check my Clevite bearings for the variability you observed. Terry, kudos for managing the situation professionally. I'm wondering about the platigauge results though. Especially main 5.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tail Dragger

Oil was applied to surfaces during initial assembly, torqueing and plastiguage inspection. Additional lubrication was added prior to final assembly. nothing was assembled or measured dry.

I'm sure that Dave was looking at you 'dry' remarks, that you made in yesterdays comments at 11:41 entry...as was I.

Assembly of this puzzle (engine) is a detail oriented operation. Even professional auto technicians make (expensive) mistakes. Don't hesitate to have others help you to inspect what you've done.

One missing piece of this puzzle can ruin all.
Good luck !

[gnolnor]

What is the cost of this new Model A engine?

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

I'm sure that Dave was looking at you 'dry' remarks, that you made in yesterdays comments at 11:41 entry...as was I.

Assembly of this puzzle (engine) is a detail oriented operation. Even professional auto technicians make (expensive) mistakes. Don't hesitate to have others help you to inspect what you've done.

One missing piece of this puzzle can ruin all.
Good luck !

hardtimes, Exactly. In post #44 it looked like the plan was to check the clearance with Plastigage devoid of oil and that would lead to false readings.

My intention is not to rile anyone. The reason for my post was to make sure Plastigage is used correctly to avoid false clearance data. I also wanted to point out that the aluminum foil method of determining bearing clearance is not fitting for insert bearing engines.

I have assembled over 200 engines over the past 10 years converted over to insert bearings. Insert bearings require a precise fit. Too little bearing clearance and they will dramatically fail, too much clearance the engine may leak and eventually the bearing will fail. Install them correctly and keep the oil clean and they will run for years. My '29 Phaeton has 98,000 miles on the original insert bearings and it leaves no trail of oil.
Good Day!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by oldredford

So these engine blocks are made in China?

Hey oldredford,
If you don’t know history of this situation, since you asked....
For MANY years, Terry spun his wheels, spent his time , talents and money to make this happen....here in the USA. Never happened !
Now the engine will live on and on !
Thanks Terry for sharing your skills , and for your amazing tenacity!!

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey oldredford,
If you don’t know history of this situation, since you asked....
For MANY years, Terry spun his wheels, spent his time , talents and money to make this happen....here in the USA. Never happened !
Now the engine will live on and on !
Thanks Terry for sharing your skills , and for your amazing tenacity!!

That's exactly how I saw it develop too. Like most countries in the west these days, those skills have disappeared. Where will we stand when the inevitable confrontation with China happens if we (the west) cannot do even this?

[HD Rider]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

That's exactly how I saw it develop too. Like most countries in the west these days, those skills have disappeared. Where will we stand when the inevitable confrontation with China happens if we (the west) cannot do even this?

The talent is still here. Just look up Cory Anderson's Case 150 Road Locomotive. We have just priced ourselves out of business.

[johnneilson]

This may or may not be the situation, just an observation.
It was not that long ago, here in Los Angeles you could find just about any process/manufacturing specialty and have quality components made.
Casting is an art form and there are not that many left who can do complex pieces especially in Iron. We have become "specialty" manufacturers, cranks, rods, pistons etc.

If I am understanding the situation, Terry and John have utilized an engine manufacturing company that employs all the necessary disciples. This is important to keep in mind as they do provide engines for car manufacturers so the amount of work to coordinate the project is minimal. I suspect that this is another reason the project came together so quickly.

This is a great move for the Model "A" community, John

[Dave in MN]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I had time in the shop today to fit the bearings and crank in the Burtz engine I purchased.

Burtz engine # 21020303-0007
The main bearing housing bores were deburred. The parting lines on the caps and block at the housing bore were filed to remove the razor sharp edge. All other machined edges were radiused with a de-burring tool. The bearing location tangs were checked in the block and deemed okay. The location tang cuts in the caps needed a very slight dressing with a 1.25" dia. cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool. All location tang cuts were lightly dressed with fine emery cloth to remove any unseen burs or razor edges left from machining. No changes were made to the insert shells.

The bearings were set and crank installed.

Clearances, using fresh Plastigage were:
Front .0018"
#2 .002"
Center .0018"
#4 .0018"
Rear .0018"
Crank thrust clearance .002" without any adjustment to the thrust washers.

The work above required about 1.75 hours. (I rebuild engines and have most of the needed tools already set up.)
I will update this post after further assembly.
Overall, pretty impressive machining work on this block.
Good Day!

[Russ/40]

Now, those are the kind of plastigauge numbers I would want to see.
Thanks Dave for the report.

[buckwild 27]

Everything is balanced individually so it's still balanced if you change out a prt of the system

[Pete]

Originally Posted by buckwild 27

Everything is balanced individually so it's still balanced if you change out a part of the system

Not necessarily. That system is used because it works for a production engine.
It is NOT the best or most accurate way. It is adaquate only.

It is also why some engines shake and some don't even after balancing.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by HD Rider

The talent is still here. Just look up Cory Anderson's Case 150 Road Locomotive. We have just priced ourselves out of business.

I'm not so sure about that and I believe accountants are mostly to blame. They have chased the cheapest price for an item for years without consideration for the long term implications and what it means for industry at home. After many years of losing business to cheap labour countries, our industries have withered and skills lost as those with the skills retire.
I hope you are right about the skills still being there but.....

[KMeredith87]

Curious what the future plans are for this engine. I’ve followed moderately. Is it going to be a limited run deal only? I believe Todd is still working a new original block as well, is that correct? I’ve been out of the loop for a while. Good to see these engines going together and excited to see what the lucky ones who are running them have to say once they’ve been broken in and run hard.

[Jim Brierley]

It's my understanding that 4 cylinder engines do not need balancing as an entire assembly, just all the pieces must be done. All pistons must weigh the same, rods the same etc. Crank and/or flywheel can be balanced individually.

[wrpercival]

Originally Posted by KMeredith87

Curious what the future plans are for this engine. IÂ’ve followed moderately. Is it going to be a limited run deal only? I believe Todd is still working a new original block as well, is that correct? IÂ’ve been out of the loop for a while. Good to see these engines going together and excited to see what the lucky ones who are running them have to say once theyÂ’ve been broken in and run hard.

In regards to the Burtz Block, the plan is to continue production. Demand for the initial run exceeded supply and there is a reservation list of pre-orders forming on the next run. Production on that (larger) run is already underway with an August 2021 delivery projected. Reservations/Pre-orders can be placed at: https://burtzblock.com No deposit is required to place a reservation on a block. Pre-orders will be fulfilled in the order they were received.

Longer-term, the goal is to have inventory warehoused & available to ship in the US. Based on the demand thus far, and the impact of global supply chain issues that most are aware of, it may be a year before that balance is reached.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

It's my understanding that 4 cylinder engines do not need balancing as an entire assembly, just all the pieces must be done. All pistons must weigh the same, rods the same etc. Crank and/or flywheel can be balanced individually.

To fully balance a 4 cylinder in-line engine, you balance the individual pieces first. This means rods end for end, pistons,pins,rings, pin retainers if used and rod bearings.
Then you balance the crank statically and dynamically. Statically means ,as a whole or in a single plane. Dynamically means over the whole length.
Then you put any front pulley or damper that is used on and balance that. Then you put the flywheel on and balance that. Then the clutch and balance that. As a side note, knowing where to remove weight on these pieces is extremely critical and you NEVER weld weights on a clutch cover to balance it. After balancing these parts are marked so they can be reassembled in the same orientation. At this point, a reasonably close static balance has been achieved for the whole assembly and final static balance touchup can be done if needed. Then dynamic balance of the whole assembly is done.

Individual pieces can be balanced and mix assembled to give an acceptable street balance job most of the time but here "most" is the critical word. It depends on the quality of the arbors used and the amount of unbalance that is to be tolerated.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Interesting thread!!

As a former Fords Parts Manager and not a 'mechanic' I have learned an important principle here.

The day I buy one of Mr. Burtz' new engines, my next call will be to someone like Dave in Minnesota that knows what the heck he's doing, to build the thing

I know the parts. I know what they do. But I also know when to draw the line!

[whirnot]

Reading taildraggers first post, took me back about 50 years to the first engine I rebuilt. I did the same thing, but didn't know to double check everything. Got the engine back together and it wouldn't turn. A new set of inserts and some plastic age, and we were in business.

[mercman from oz]

Very impressive casting indeed.

[johnneilson]

Jim is correct, a 4 banger cannot be fully balanced because the offset piston acceleration.
You can equalize everything as much as possible, but never truly balance the motor.
Counterbalance the crank as much as you can, BB cranks work great, minimize the rod weight and the pistons too.

Banger motors making real HP will shake, that is a fact, a power stroke every 180 degs on the crank is why. Had a guy tell me he didn't like his motor shaking, I took the timing out and it settled down, then made no power. Guess what the final result was?

John

[Pete]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

Jim is correct, a 4 banger cannot be fully balanced because the offset piston acceleration.
You can equalize everything as much as possible, but never truly balance the motor.
Counterbalance the crank as much as you can, BB cranks work great, minimize the rod weight and the pistons too.

Banger motors making real HP will shake, that is a fact, a power stroke every 180 degs on the crank is why. Had a guy tell me he didn't like his motor shaking, I took the timing out and it settled down, then made no power. Guess what the final result was?

John

You are absolutely correct. "Fully" is interpreted two different ways here.
It is NOT the best word to use.
You can not get enough weight on the crank to 100% balance it. There is not enough room in the crankcase. Balance shafts are another way to 100% balance. Either way, a complete re-design of the engine would be required.

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

The "New Engine" has 8 counterweights and ample room for added tungsten weights if desired.

Balance shafts are used to make buyers of 4-cylinder engines comfortable because they don't see or feel vibrations.

Engines with balance shafts that are used in racing have their balance shafts discarded to reduce weight.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

The "New Engine" has 8 counterweights and ample room for added tungsten weights if desired.

> Assuming the "new" engine is the same physical dimensions as an original, at one time you yourself said it was only possible to get to 65% balance due to space limitations. Having balanced a very large number of these engines, I would say that is a close estimate.

Balance shafts are used to make buyers of 4-cylinder engines comfortable because they don't see or feel vibrations.

> Balance shafts have been around since the early 1900's and they were invented to INCREASE THE LIFE OF ENGINES. Caterpillar uses them in several of their most popular engines. Several popular automotive engines use them.

Engines with balance shafts that are used in racing have their balance shafts discarded to reduce weight.

> Partially true, (it is done primarily to gain hp) but what does that have to do with your engine? It is illegal for sanctioned racing.

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for your project and enjoy seeing the progress.
I think it will be good for the model A hobby.
I was just trying to clear up some marginal information

...

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Pete,

Thanks for your comments.

With an iron or steel crankshaft, it is impossible to get enough counterweight to counteract the bending forces that occur at TDC when the connecting rod stops the piston, however for those that want more counterweight for events like land speed records, there is plenty of room to add tungsten or depleted uranium.

The problem with a heavy crankshaft is that it makes an engine sluggish with the added inertia and acceleration/deceleration becomes an issue.

Balance weights are separate from the crankshaft and do nothing to reduce stresses in the crankshaft.

Balance shafts reduce the inherent shaking that comes with a 4-cylinder engine. In the case of heavy equipment, balance shafts keep the machine from shaking itself apart and fretting damage.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

Pete,

Thanks for your comments.

With an iron or steel crankshaft, it is impossible to get enough counterweight to counteract the bending forces that occur at TDC when the connecting rod stops the piston, however for those that want more counterweight for events like land speed records, there is plenty of room to add tungsten or depleted uranium.

> Your engines will never be used for land speed racing unless they change the rules but since you mentioned heavy metal, it is not necessary to achieve a balance that works very well on racing engines even with a 3 main crank.. This is done by bob weight percentage and can achieve a .01 inch ounce balance over the rpm range the engine operates in.

The problem with a heavy crankshaft is that it makes an engine sluggish with the added inertia and acceleration/deceleration becomes an issue.

Balance weights are separate from the crankshaft and do nothing to reduce stresses in the crankshaft.

> I assume you meant "shafts", not "weights"? Anyway, only partially right. ANYTHING that reduces vibration in an engine will reduce stress in the crankshaft.

Balance shafts reduce the inherent shaking that comes with a 4-cylinder engine. In the case of heavy equipment, balance shafts keep the machine from shaking itself apart and fretting damage.

> Machine vibration and base mounting vibration in stationary engines is a SECONDARY problem. A THIRD order problem is vibraton to the earth itself. While seemingly not a problem, it CAN and IS being measured and will catch up to us some day.
This thread has been hi-jacked long enough. I am done.

...

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Pete,

Thanks for your correction to my post.

Your assumption is correct where I meant to say "Balance shafts" instead of "Balance weights".

The "New Model A Engine Kit" may fool the fine point judges at MARC and MAFCA judging events, but is not intended to fool the judges at any speed or other events where a complete engine teardown is needed for certification.

Bonneville and other venues have a multitude of classes. Perhaps a new class will emerge for those that choose to run the "New Model A Engine Kit".

I agree that in your words this thread has been "hi-jacked", but your inputs are much needed and appreciated. Please continue to post with your comments. I read all posts and am continually revising the "Builders Guide" to make it better based on comments.

Terry Burtz

[JOHNCL]

Secondary imbalance forces increase with the square of rpm. Counter-rotating balance shafts are essential in modern I-4 engines with short-stroke, higher-rpm architectures. Less so in a Model A engine's long-stroke, lower rpm world. There, piston speed becomes prodigious before the secondary imbalance forces become intolerable.

[Russ/40]

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Originally Posted by JOHNCL

Secondary imbalance forces increase with the square of rpm. Counter-rotating balance shafts are essential in modern I-4 engines with short-stroke, higher-rpm architectures. Less so in a Model A engine's long-stroke, lower rpm world. There, piston speed becomes prodigious before the secondary imbalance forces become intolerable.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, OKayyyyyyy

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, OKayyyyyyy

If I followed this correctly, I think it’s saying RPM is going to be a problem quicker than vibration will be a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Russ/40]

Got it!

[oldpete]

Hi Tail Dragger, I purchased the 2020CP bearings from Rock Auto's along with the rear main oil seal

[Vicky]

We have finished our Burtz 5-Main Model A Engine, and installed it in our Victoria in preparation for the Great Race.

We also installed our Serr Miller Head on the engine, that also has a FSI Solid State Ignition, Brierley M-13 Cam, Stromberg 97 Carburetor (with #45. Jets), JE Pistons, and the Header for the Miller Head. I enclosed a picture of an original Model A Piston along with the piston we used for reference.

We have a started the Break-In process and have a little over 300 miles with no problems, no leaks. Everything is going fine, engine runs smooth, accelerates well.

We are pleased with the engine.

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Vicky

We have finished our Burtz 5-Main Model A Engine, and installed it in our Victoria in preparation for the Great Race.

We also installed our Serr Miller Head on the engine, that also has a FSI Solid State Ignition, Brierley M-13 Cam, Stromberg 97 Carburetor (with #45. Jets), JE Pistons, and the Header for the Miller Head. I enclosed a picture of an original Model A Piston along with the piston we used for reference.

We have a started the Break-In process and have a little over 300 miles with no problems, no leaks. Everything is going fine, engine runs smooth, accelerates well.

We are pleased with the engine.

Vicky,
I am building virtually the same engine. Only the pistons and carbs will be different. If you would share please, what is your cold oil pressure at idle and warm operating oil pressure. I am interested in knowing what the Stipe pump is producing. Did you add any additional oil pressure relief other than the stock relief in the pump? Thanks for what you can share.
Good Day!

[Cyclone Kevin]

Thank to all especially Terry Burtz for all of the “Fantastic info-tech” on this exciting and long awaited in terms of a “MAJOR IMPROVEMENT” over the 93 yr old A engine design and the 89 yr old B-C design. I would email Terry each time I received an engine update and followed along with its progress to process. This guy “NEEDS to be Thanked” along with the guys who continue to make the alternative engine a physical reality. I only wish that I could get one ASAP as I’d like to try on of our “Original NOS CYCLONE A-B Heads”, not the ones that carry our name w/o our consent as they are not even based off of our original tool. If this engine calls for us to re-tool ours then perhaps we could/should.
Great to see such great tech Terry. Wishing you the best!!!!!

[denniskliesen]

I’m not far behind on getting mine running. I have about a half of a day buttoning up the engine itself and then getting it in the frame and all hooked up. Only thing I need to fabricate is the oil filter housing bracket. It’s breakin time after that and then off to Oshkosh. Can’t wait to get there and meet up with Terry, John, and Leonard. A really great bunch of guys.

[oldpete]

Hi Vicky, I will also be using a Stipe oil pump in my new engine. Can you please let me know which pressure relief vale spring did you use 40psi or 50psi and what oil pressure are you getting. I live in Perth Western Australia

[old31]

Vicky, that is a great looking engine. Nice job.

What do you think the HP is?

[Vicky]

The engine runs with a little over 30 PSI Oil Pressure when cold and after it warms up, and when warm, it drops a little below 30 PSI when idling.

The engine has an External Oil Filter, and with the Header and Fuel Pump on the right side, I placed the filter on the left side of the engine under the Starter. I used an Earl 2077 filter mount because it has a 1/8 NPT output for the head and pressure gauge in addition to the output for the engine.


The Stipe pump has the Green Spring, 35-40 PSI, and there is no change is oil pressure when accelerating or making sharp turns, very consistent. The Oil fitter is a Wix 51085 (a short PH 8), the lines to and from the filter are AN 6, and the head & pressure sensor line is 1/8 inch. The Engine oil is Valvoline VR-1 20w-50.

I am not sure of the HP, but a friend wants to put the car on his chassis Dyno after we break it in. I will post those results, I would expect about 100 HP at the wheels.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by oldpete

Hi Vicky, I will also be using a Stipe oil pump in my new engine. Can you please let me know which pressure relief vale spring did you use 40psi or 50psi and what oil pressure are you getting. I live in Perth Western Australia

PM sent.

[esso]

Hi Vicky
Great looking engine. Waiting for my Terry block to arrive to sweden.
Which JE piston do you use.
Best regards Soren

[oldpete]

Thanks Vicky for the information re oil pressure, 30 psi is great.

[Vicky]

Originally Posted by esso

Hi Vicky
Great looking engine. Waiting for my Terry block to arrive to sweden.
Which JE piston do you use.
Best regards Soren

Pistons were purchased from Dennis Piranio, Piranio’s Antique Automotive, http://modelaparts.net/index.html

[esso]

Thanks Vicky
These pistons are exactly what i'm looking for.
Best Regards Soren

[oldpete]

Hi Synchro909 I am in Perth, what I have done with the water jacket is the POR fuel tank sealer. I have used that in my current engine witch has done 22,000 miles with no issues. Before using this in 2011 I contacted the guy who imports it into Australia, his response was it is rated at I think it was 230 degrees celsius also it is designed to expand & contract with out cracking

[Vicky]

Bob and Lois Beers are getting ready to embark on the 2021 Great Race driving their 31 Victoria with a 5-Main Burtz Engine. The Great Race is a Timed-Distance Vintage Car Rally, which will start in San Antonio on 18 June and travel ~2500 miles through Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri , Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, and Finishing in Greenville, South Carolina on 27 June.

Travis Easter has created a Facebook page to keep everyone informed on the their progress. Please like and follow the page to show your support!

Great Race 2021 #35 Victoria
@greatrace2021Victoria#35

Travis will be updating this page with pictures and scores daily.

Great Race Scores can also be monitored at: “https://www.greatrace.com/results”

[Jim Brierley]

Cyclone, I ran an original Cyclone for many years, a great head. I'm now running one of my own of course.

Vicky, 100 hp at the wheels is a lot, good luck.on that.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Vicky

Pistons were purchased from Dennis Piranio, Piranio’s Antique Automotive, http://modelaparts.net/index.html

What is the benefit of using pistons with shorter skirts?

[Vicky]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

What is the benefit of using pistons with shorter skirts?

This article may help answer the piston skirt design question

https://auto.jepistons.com/blog/maxi...-skirt-shaping

[Tom Foster]

I notice your registration time is 9:30 a.m. next Thursday at the hotel. Will there be an area for local fans to see the car's before the start? I know downtown San Antonio is usually quite crowded.
Good luck from a local.

[Vicky]

Originally Posted by Tom Foster

I notice your registration time is 9:30 a.m. tomorrow at the hotel. Will there be an area for local fans to see the car's before the start? I know downtown San Antonio is usually quite crowded.
Good luck from a local.

The Great Race don’t start until next week. The key activities where all the vehicles will be in place for the start is provided below. We start in front of the Alamo.


Saturday, June 19, 2021—Stage 1: OFFICIAL START: SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS; SAN MARCOS, TEXAS; TEMPLE, TEXAS

First car in place, The Alamo, At 8:30
Start Ceremony, The Alamo, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS. At 10:45

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Vicky

This article may help answer the piston skirt design question

https://auto.jepistons.com/blog/maxi...-skirt-shaping

Helpful article. Thank you.

[esso]

Hi
Is there anyone who tried different camlifts or duration except for the stipe 0,340 or similar.I was thinking like 0.413 lift.Is there a clearence issue with a higher lift in the burtz combo.

[GeneBob]

Originally Posted by esso

Hi
Is there anyone who tried different camlifts or duration except for the stipe 0,340 or similar.I was thinking like 0.413 lift.Is there a clearence issue with a higher lift in the burtz combo.

I don't know what kind of lift the Model A engine can take advantage of but the Burtz block is similar if not identical in the area around the valves. Your limit to lift will probably depend on the head you are using and whether the Model A cam geometry can actually provide that much lift without damaging the lifters and the valve train above them.
Like I said, I don't know what the limits are for the Model A engine but there are several engine builders on this forum who can provide some intelligent feedback on that.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by esso

Hi
Is there anyone who tried different camlifts or duration except for the stipe 0,340 or similar.I was thinking like 0.413 lift.Is there a clearence issue with a higher lift in the burtz combo.

Just about any cam you can mention has been tried in A/B flathead 4 bangers.
If you want much over .350 lift it is going to have to be on a billet or welded stock core. That will entail boring the cam line oversize also.
I ran a grind from a DO Hal engine with .488 lift for awhile. This engine had 4 intake ports. I have also run a 404A radius lifter grind from a Ford flathead V8 with .416 lift.
As with any engine, if you check the valve clearance and flycut if needed, there should be no problem with any head.