1955 T-Bird early(1954) VIN

[39deluxecp]

I bought a 1955 T-Bird from a guy in Frankfort, Illinois last fall. It was in bad shape, and had been sitting in a shed since 1970"s. the number is 100231. making it the 231 T-Bird produced. I think it was october 1954. I had to replace the floor, trunk floor, rockers, and rear quarters. I am doing my best to make it a good restoration, I bought a rotissery to restore the body on. Best money I ever spant. and a plasma cutter and wire feed welder. I have done a few restorations and hot rods the past 20 years. so I do have some experiance. I was wondering , since there is no engine or transmission with it, if converting it to a 351 cleveland and c4 transmission would hurt the resale value a lot.

[dmsfrr]

First off, please register it at this website....
http://tbird.info/thunderbird-registry-faq.htm

This Bird is AWOL
http://tbird.info/registry/Results_last_six_list.php

http://tbird.info/first-1955-thunderbirds.htm

Among the right audience there is some added prestige to having a very low numbered '55 Bird.
But it doesn't mean too much unless the car is original or has some other original unique feature. Example: one of the first ten built, has special trim, owned by a celebrity or FoMoCo executive, etc.

Since the car isn't original anymore, unless it has an additional claim to fame, I see no reason a newer engine & transmission would hurt it's value in a significant way.
If the work is well done it might even add some value for the right buyer.

FYI, as you get farther along you'll notice an original '55 Temp gauge won't work right with an engine that has heads newer than '56.
Not sure about the '55 speedometer cable into a newer transmission...

[miker98038]

I think dmsfrr is right about that, a bird back from the dead probably isn’t worth the price for the missing parts. I’m a y block guy, but when you look at the bird only parts the price adds up pretty quickly.

It’s been years since I’ve been around modern small block Fords, but IIRC the Cleveland was the big dog in the performance department. Unless you’ve got one laying around, I’m not sure you’d get that back in a Thunderbird. I’d be more likely to look for a good 302 that can be converted to a carb is necessary, or retain the EFI is you’ve the ability to do that.

Likewise the C4, unless you’ve got a good one in stock. They sell adapters for the C4 behind the Y, and those guys seem happy with it. If the car was originally an auto, you could also put a 302/AOD combo in it.

If it’s still got the Dana rear end, those are not easy or cheap to change the ratio in unless you can do the work yourself, and even some parts can be a problem.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by miker98038

. . . a bird back from the dead probably isn’t worth the price for the missing parts. I’m a y block guy, but when you look at the bird only parts the price adds up pretty quickly.

. . . but IIRC the Cleveland was the big dog in the performance department. Unless you’ve got one laying around, I’m not sure you’d get that back in a Thunderbird. I’d be more likely to look for a good 302 that can be converted to a carb is necessary, or retain the EFI is you’ve the ability to do that.
. . .

The *T-Bird only* parts needed to fit a Y-block long-block from a 'full sized' car or truck into a Baby Bird could add up to $1500+, not including the engine or anything else, IF you can find them.

Isn't the 351 'Cleveland' block wider & taller than the Windsor blocks? That could be a more challenging swap. Clearance to the steering column and hood isn't the best. '55/'57 Birds have a rear sump oil pan, special exhaust manifold for the drivers side and a low-profile air cleaner too.

With a higher horsepower engine if you upgrade to front discs and a dual circuit master cylinder the M/C could be very close to the head.
.

[fordrodsteven]

I would suggest also that when you fabricate the mounts to install the newer drivetrain make it a bolt on affair in case someone with lots of $ and or the correct Thunderbird parts can go back to original if they so desire. I'm sure you will also be converting to 12V if your going to be using a newer drivetrain. Check out the CTCI website (Gil's garage) to see what information is there.
Yes the steering box can be a problem when putting in the different engine. Some guys use hi-po 289 exhaust manifolds if they can find them. Some guys go with headers but you need to find headers that will clear the steering box. I think you also need to look for a rear sump oil pan for the installation.

[56sedandelivery]

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Fitting a cleveland would be tight. It was tight on my 56SD and I believe they have a bigger engine compartment then the tbird. A taller deck 351M would even be i bigger problem as it is wider.

[fordrodsteven]

I've seen 289, 302, 351W's in the little birds. The only issue is the engine is lighter than the original "Y" block so the front rises up a little bit (changing the stance of the car). Some people change out to Aerostar springs. They drop the front pretty much back to correct height. I've also seen 390's in the little birds. No issues with weight change because the big Ford engine weighs almost exactly the same as the original "Y" block. Just a little FYI.

[rotorwrench]

The Cleveland 335 blocks are larger than the Windsor blocks. 302 or 351 are long but would fit better than a Cleveland.

[39deluxecp]

thanks for all the info, I do have a 1974 302 here also that I was considering. I have lots of 351c parts, but the 302 is also complete . I have both engines in my shop now, so very soon I will trial fit each of them as I do have the body off the frame on the rotesey now. Lots of work, but the only way this old dog will ever own a '55 T-Bird! thanks again.Henry

[y'sguy]

I think in today's world if i were in your shoes I would find a wrecked new FORD product that has the latest and greatest modern day engine. Plenty of power with excellent mileage. Just my thoughts.

[slumlord44]

An early '55 I would put back to stock or close it. There are no matching engine numbers on a Y block so any block will do. Easiest way to get all tht T Bird engine parts is to look for a complete engine that somone has pulled to install something else. The come up occasionaly. I would make it a 312 to make it interesting. Doing all the body work would make it affordable. Most of us don't do this to get rich.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by 39deluxecp

I bought a 1955 T-Bird from a guy in Frankfort, Illinois last fall. It was in bad shape, and had been sitting in a shed since 1970"s. the number is 100231. making it the 231 T-Bird produced. I think it was october 1954.

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

First off, please register it at this website....

http://tbird.info/thunderbird-registry-faq.htm

This Bird is AWOL
http://tbird.info/registry/Results_last_six_list.php

http://tbird.info/first-1955-thunderbirds.htm

Among the right audience there can be some added prestige to having a very low numbered '55 Bird.

Originally Posted by slumlord44

An early '55 I would put back to stock or close it. There are no matching engine numbers on a Y block so any block will do.

There are identifying (and resultant) matching numbers. That is what increases the value of an original or restoration.

[scicala]

Originally Posted by slumlord44

An early '55 I would put back to stock or close it. There are no matching engine numbers on a Y block so any block will do. Easiest way to get all tht T Bird engine parts is to look for a complete engine that somone has pulled to install something else. The come up occasionaly. I would make it a 312 to make it interesting. Doing all the body work would make it affordable. Most of us don't do this to get rich.

But there are casting numbers that are specific for certain model years, and foundry date codes on the castings. That is the Ford Y-Blocks version of numbers matching.


Sal

[39deluxecp]

I have it registered with the T-Bird registry. thanks

[39deluxecp]

I never make much money off my cars. Usually enough to pay for the expenses of building the car and a little left over to buy another disaster!!

[packrat5]

An FE will almost be a bolt-in. but the hood won't clear. A guy I knew back in high school installed a MEL 430. Same problem. He stopped driving it because the police kept stopping him for no hood. If you would install either of these, the same problems as a y-block. A Cleveland is a huge piece of cast iron, with no advantage. A Windsor on the other hand is plentiful in any configuration, and can be had all the way up to 460 inches, with a corresponding increase in power and cost as you go up the scale. Windsor powered little Birds, and their reproduction brethren, are getting almost as plentiful as the other belly-button. Speaking of that, a guy I know almost has his 350 powered little bird finished. It's your car, cut it up if that's what makes you happy, there is no shortage of them.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 39deluxecp

I have it registered with the T-Bird registry. thanks

Thank you

Originally Posted by slumlord44

An early '55 I would put back to stock or close it. There are no matching engine numbers on a Y block so any block will do. Easiest way to get all tht T Bird engine parts is to look for a complete engine that somone has pulled to install something else. The come up occasionaly. I would make it a 312 to make it interesting. Doing all the body work would make it affordable. Most of us don't do this to get rich.

Too many folks selling a Y-block they even think may be from a T-Bird will likely want top dollar for it,
even if it's all wrong and seized.
Unless you can see the back end of the crank or the main bearing caps you can't visually tell the difference between a 292 and 312. (photos below) Many sellers are 110% convinced any Y-block they have is a '57 312, and again will want top dollar.
http://ford-y-block.com/identify312.htm

'Buy high and sell low' seems to be the way it often goes over here.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

There are identifying (and resultant) matching numbers. That is what increases the value of an original or restoration.

Originally Posted by scicala

But there are casting numbers that are specific for certain model years, and foundry date codes on the castings. That is the Ford Y-Blocks version of numbers matching.
Sal

Here's a link to the casting numbers with displacement and vehicle application for all the years of Y-block engine blocks.
http://ford-y-block.com/Block%20identification.htm

When I was looking for a replacement long-block for my '55 Bird I came across quite a few 292's from 60's pickup trucks. Since I already had nearly all the T-Bird specific parts from the existing engine this wouldn't have been a mechanical problem, but knowing in the back of my mind that the car would have an 'old truck engine' in it wasn't something I wanted.

39deluxecp
Which way you proceed is of course up to you.
Five years ago I decided to go the 'nearly stock' route mostly because I already had a (barely running) engine in the car and wouldn't have to reinvent-the-wheel for my first project in 25+ years.
Not to mention that the biggest tools in my garage are a floor jack and impact wrench. No fabrication tools at all.

After getting more time under the car and behind the wheel, if I were to try this again, esp without the needed Baby Bird specific engine parts on hand, I'd be more inclined to go with a newer drivetrain.
(and an overdrive transmission)

[5851a]

If stock the 74 302 will be down on power a little, nothing serious but was the beginning of emissions. Nice smooth engine and the sky or wallet is the limit on horsepower if you want. Rear sump pans are easy to find, different styles for each car body style or truck from 1980 up all used rear/mid sumps.

[fordrodsteven]

Originally Posted by 5851a

If stock the 74 302 will be down on power a little, nothing serious but was the beginning of emissions. Nice smooth engine and the sky or wallet is the limit on horsepower if you want. Rear sump pans are easy to find, different styles for each car body style or truck from 1980 up all used rear/mid sumps.

I cannot remember the specific numbers but I think the original 292 engine had a rating of around 180 HP. Then if I remember correctly the 302 for 1974 (due to all the emission controls and engine detuning) was rated at somewhere around 150 HP. If you have a good running 302 from 1974 and you put it into the car (need to be aware there will be issues in / around the steering box) you could probably get a little more HP out of it with a few modifications.

[39deluxecp]

i am considering the 351c with 2v heads because it will have more power than the stock 302 I have(the 302 does have a 4 barrel intake), since the stock 302 heads have such small valves and ports. I do think the c4 transmission will be nice, as the car has the 3.27 gears now. I do not go over 30 miles away from home with my old cars, just short and sometimes fast drives. It is 18* above zero right now, so even though my hanging gas furnace will heat the shop pretty fast, i have no desire to go into that shop in this weather! when i get some anbition, I will test fit the cleveland and the 302 and post some pictures of each.

[fordrodsteven]

I'm sure either will fit.
The Cleveland measurements are average 24-1/2 wide by 29 long by 28-1/2 high.
The Windsor engine measurement average are 24 wide by 29 long by 27-1/2 high.
"Y" block engine measures 28 by 29 by 29
The reason I wrote that those are average dimensions is because of possible different height intake, carb or other components attached to the engine affecting width or height.


Original "Y" block weighs 625 pounds, Windsor weighs 460 pounds, Cleveland weighs 550.


As I've written in other posts and I think I did earlier in this post is that with the lighter engine the front will raise up a little bit changing the stance of the car. Some people change out the front springs with Ford Aerostar springs to bring it back down to the correct height.

[39deluxecp]

I should tell you that this T-Bird had a 390 4-speed before I bought it. the previous owner had installed 3 of the coil spring "helper" devices popular in the old days. so I will have to install the engine and c4 , then see where it sits. I want it lower anyhow, so will probably remove the "helpers".

[fordrodsteven]

Originally Posted by 39deluxecp

I should tell you that this T-Bird had a 390 4-speed before I bought it. the previous owner had installed 3 of the coil spring "helper" devices popular in the old days. so I will have to install the engine and c4 , then see where it sits. I want it lower anyhow, so will probably remove the "helpers".

Hmmmm. Helper springs? that surprises me because the big block Ford (390) weighs almost the same as the original "Y" block.

[miker98038]

I read that as meaning these old time cheapies. Mainly for sagging springs, but I could see it for an FE.

[packrat5]

You are going to regret that Cleveland choice. Remember that when you are trying to get it in. It's your car, do what you want, but don't ignore good experienced advice.
By the way, there is no such thing as a true rear sump pan for Windsor, or Cleveland or 385 engines. The oil pump is in the front, so you are going to have a pan with a front and a rear sump. Good luck by the way.

[fordrodsteven]

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Originally Posted by packrat5

You are going to regret that Cleveland choice. Remember that when you are trying to get it in. It's your car, do what you want, but don't ignore good experienced advice.
By the way, there is no such thing as a true rear sump pan for Windsor, or Cleveland or 385 engines. The oil pump is in the front, so you are going to have a pan with a front and a rear sump. Good luck by the way.

Huh??? I'm confused!? I have a 302 automatic (Windsor) in my '55. The engine and transmission are out of an "80 Thunderbird and it is definitely rear sump oil pan. My car had already been setup for a 289. The only issues I had with this newer engine was peripherals. The A/C compressor was too high and hit on the hood. The power steering pump was too far out and hit on the frame. A re-bracket on both those items fixed the issues. Also. Why will the original poster regret putting in a Cleveland? The engine will fit. The usual problems will arise around the steering box with getting the engine mounted and with getting an exhaust that fits. Other than that I think he is pretty much "good to go". He already had a different engine (390) in the car to begin with. I don't know why he is considering changing it out to something different but that's his prerogative.

[KULTULZ]

Your CLV rear sump pan and pickup will be from a 77/ 4WD pickup with a 351M/400.

[39deluxecp]

in response to the rear sump oil pan. even with the oil pan off the 351c engine, the oil pump sticks down 6" from the front of the block. so it will have to sit high enough to clear the pan. a true rear sump engine (y-block) is probably 3" deep at the front. I have a 302 and a 351c to try, so will post some pictures when this ongoing winter ends. thankyou for all the info on this.Henry

[39deluxecp]

I was just thinking the fact that the Y-block has the crankshaft up into the block probably 3 or 4 inches, where as the 351c has no skirts, but is flush with the bottom of the block. So the distance from the center of the crank to the bottom of the 292 t-bird oil pan will be about the same as the distance of the center of the crank to the bottom of the oil pan of a 351c.make sense?? The bottom of the oil pump on my 351c is about 6" from the block. can anyone tell me the distance of the 292 t-bird pan from the center of the crank to the bottom of the oil pan? thanks,Henry

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by packrat5

By the way, there is no such thing as a true rear sump pan for Windsor, or Cleveland or 385 engines. The oil pump is in the front, so you are going to have a pan with a front and a rear sump. Good luck by the way.

Originally Posted by fordrodsteven

Huh??? I'm confused!? I have a 302 automatic (Windsor) in my '55. The engine and transmission are out of an "80 Thunderbird and it is definitely rear sump oil pan. My car had already been setup for a 289.

The 5.0L oil pan for a FOX body was a dual sump. The front sump allowed for the pump and the rear sump for the oil pickup.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 39deluxecp

. . . can anyone tell me the distance of the 292 t-bird pan from the center of the crank to the bottom of the oil pan? thanks,Henry

Reaching past the radiator and working around the front motor mount, as close a measurement as I could get with the car now assembled and sitting on the garage floor... it's 5 & 1/4 inches total from the crank center down to the level of the lowest front edge of the pan.
The T-Bird oil pan itself is slightly less than 2 inches deep at the front and tapers deeper toward the rear. Please don't cut or buy anything based on my (5.25) front measurement without double checking it on another Bird.
Maybe someone else can measure a leftover Y-block timing cover or engine block?