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Old 01-02-2018, 02:51 PM   #1
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Default Diamond Block Questions

I have decided to exit the Model A hobby for the foreseeable future and will be parting with many of my extra pieces and whatnot. I have a diamond block engine that is numbered *A4870927* which brings the year of manufacture in right between 1938 and 1939.

What I'm hoping to find is more information about what their "deal" is. Given Model As were produced up until 1931, it is unusual for an engine to be produced so late. I understand that they may have been extra engines or that they were produced for non-auto uses. Does anyone have more information?

Also, what would be the value on one in good shape and in running condition? Mine has been painted a metallic blue, but is still operational. I don't think it would need a rebuild, but maybe just new gaskets. Thanks for the help.

I have included a link to the pics, they are the very last two photos on the album here:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...or-sale.27941/
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

A Fan, Here is a link that should help.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/diamondblock.htm
The later castings are desirable for the guys wanting to hop up a banger as the castings had better material and structure. The number on the block is probably not the number for the block itself but was transferred from the previous motor that was removed?
Hope this helps. I know others will chime in.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

If you look on the lower block, carb side just behind the timing gear case you should see a raised letter and two numbers. My diamond block reads C 5 7 which means March 5th, 1937. These blocks had some modern improvements in them. I am sure others will be able to tell you more
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Old 01-02-2018, 08:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

My Diamond block has X240.
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Last edited by Chris Haynes; 01-03-2018 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 01-02-2018, 10:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

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Originally Posted by springerpete View Post
If you look on the lower block, carb side just behind the timing gear case you should see a raised letter and two numbers. My diamond block reads C 5 7 which means March 5th, 1937. These blocks had some modern improvements in them. I am sure others will be able to tell you more
My diamond A block has 1296 there. Anybody know what that means? I can't read the engine number on it but most likely it is of Canadian origin.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:41 AM   #6
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

It is my understanding that diamond block had no stamped number on the number boss.
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

That number is not a diamond number.
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

Aren’t you talking about a Model B block anyway? They would all have been produced after 1931. I would guess that many B blocks have had engine numbers stamped on them as required as, as stated, they did not come stamped.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:18 AM   #9
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

On Vince's site that would equate to December 9 1936 1296
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
My diamond A block has 1296 there. Anybody know what that means? I can't read the engine number on it but most likely it is of Canadian origin.
That is probably I296. Or September 29 1936
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:16 PM   #11
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That is probably I296. Or September 29 1936
Thanks, Jim and JJJ.
Consistent with comment above about these blocks not having numbers stamped on them, I can see that there is no star at either end of the number that is or rather, was there. I think it is probably a number put there some time since 1936 by who knows who and who knows why.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:13 PM   #12
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

A "B" cam is one of the best parts of the these blocks but mostly that they were run in industrial motors such as combines and irrigation pumps which mean they ran at low rpm's and no lateral crank movement due to no clutch action most of the time. That way the original crank journals are usually in good shape. If the flywheel housing is still attached you will find another date stamp there.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

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Originally Posted by Chippy Minton View Post
Arenít you talking about a Model B block anyway? They would all have been produced after 1931. I would guess that many B blocks have had engine numbers stamped on them as required as, as stated, they did not come stamped.
Model B had numbers on the bell housing, not the block. Model A Diamond blocks were available through the late '30's. Diamond blocks were not numbered.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:31 PM   #14
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

I am just as baffled by it as well, but I don't have a good photo currently. I will try to get a photo of the serial number before the new owner takes it away. It has stars on both ends of the number and based on one of the websites with the info, it is from between 1938 and 1939. I don't understand why someone would mark it with that number (coinciding to that time period) if it wasn't in fact made during between those years.

Hopefully a picture will provide some clues. I'll check on the block for a date code as well.

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I like that sort of thing.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

Gentlemen - These discussions have peaked my curiosity about my own (rebuilt) diamond block engine earmarked for my roadster project. The letters are L226 preceded and followed by a slotted round head screw. Am I correct in assuming this lettering would indicate October 22nd of 1936?? Is it known that these diamond blocks came with a "B" cam?? Thank You in Advance.
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

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The letters are L226 preceded and followed by a slotted round head screw. Am I correct in assuming this lettering would indicate October 22nd of 1936?? Is it known that these diamond blocks came with a "B" cam?? Thank You in Advance.
Isn't "L" the 12th letter meaning it would have been cast in December?

From my notes: Beginning in August 1932, complete Model A service block engines were all fitted at the Rouge with Model B camshafts and push rods (tappets), according to the Engine Production Foreman's records. This feature carried forward into diamond block production.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:16 AM   #18
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRShaw View Post
Gentlemen - These discussions have peaked my curiosity about my own (rebuilt) diamond block engine earmarked for my roadster project. The letters are L226 preceded and followed by a slotted round head screw. Am I correct in assuming this lettering would indicate October 22nd of 1936?? Is it known that these diamond blocks came with a "B" cam?? Thank You in Advance.
Here is some great information;

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/diamondblock.htm
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

Vince told me he has never seen a number like the X240 without the screw that is on my block.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

After reading JRShaw's post (#16), I went back to my diamond A block and had a closer look. The number I gave in post #5 was incorrect. In better light, I can see it is J296 (not 1296) and just like JR's, it is preceded and followed by the shape of a screw head.
Following the reasoning expressed here, I figure that motor would have been cast on October 29th, 1936. Is that correct?
The block came to me as part of a deceased estate along with a couple of other disassembled motors, one being a B. The camshaft from the B block is easy to identify by the fuel pump lobe but how do I tell the B cam that was in the diamond A block from the ordinary A cams I also got?
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Old 01-10-2018, 04:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

Here are some pics of the Diamond Block Engine. The stamping indicated 1938-39 manufacture.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/IVxe89sZdUG8q6Gf2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kZdgLqyW9j0UxzFf2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jIwAfZcjX0usrj6y1
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

The font on those numbers doesn't look like factory. Two different size A's?
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

A diamond block manufactured in 1938-39 wouldn't have a factory stamped serial number anyway.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:21 PM   #24
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Who would take the time or hassle to stamp it with the star and numbers then? And why stamp it with a number that would place it at such a late manufacture date? Regardless, it is a true diamond block.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:52 PM   #25
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Thats a 4 bolt water pump...can you post a picture of the other side of that engine?
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

Well, I've been following this thread and haven't said anything yet. But now I will. It seems there are all a lot of experts out here. I really don't know where they come up with their information. My expertise is in my own personal experience with Gleaner Combines. I will agree with the Information on Vince Falters website that he has posted.

I have a lot of personal experience with diamond blocks. I've taken 25+ off Gleaner Combines in Kansas/Nebraska where I grew up. I just took one off in October. It had a 4 million number after Model A Production on the Pad.

In regard to the serial number pad. There is (3) variations I've found.

1. Pad with a "G" and numbers following it. These have all been lightly stamped. An
Example would be "G972" I believe this number was stamped by Gleaner.

2. No number at all. Very evident that there was never a number stamped on these pads.

3. Is a 4 million number like the one "Model A Fan" has pictured. These numbers were all
after the Model A Ford Production

I have several of all (3) variations of these blocks in storage in Kansas.

I've had a lot of fun buying Gleaner Combines for the Model A Motors and just buying the motors and taking them off. When I was younger my Dad would help me. We had it down to a science unbolting them and rolling them onto our trailer with pipe under the engine stand. When I was buying these in the 70's the biggest competition was the iron buyers.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:31 AM   #27
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So you basically want to know what a non running model a engine is worth...its a pig in a poke,you'd be lucky to see 200 bucks..hook it up and run it? maybe 500 bucks to someone..special?it aint that special,they made over 4 million of them.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: Diamond Block Questions

"Maybe" the phrase, "A DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH" came from these engines?????
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:15 PM   #29
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"Maybe" the phrase, "A DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH" came from these engines?????
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Diamond in the Rouge?
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:55 PM   #30
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The diamond means it wasn't cast at the Rouge,dont know if that's a good thing or not.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:00 AM   #31
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The diamond means it wasn't cast at the Rouge,dont know if that's a good thing or not.

Where did you find the information that documents this?
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:26 AM   #32
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Where did you find the information that documents this?


http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/diamondblock.htm


It appears diamond castings were assembled at the Rouge,but cast elsewhere.Mr Falter mentions Highland Park.Would be interesting to know the furnace that made the iron,no doubt the iron design was Ford spec..The Rouge heats were consistent,volume heats from a furnace in constant operation.Did the furnace that produced the diamond block heats have the same consistency? who knows..
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:29 AM   #33
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http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/diamondblock.htm


It appears diamond castings were assembled at the Rouge,but cast elsewhere.Mr Falter mentions Highland Park.Would be interesting to know the furnace that made the iron,no doubt the iron design was Ford spec..The Rouge heats were consistent,volume heats from a furnace in constant operation.Did the furnace that produced the diamond block heats have the same consistency? who knows..

I think you need to go back and read what Vince stated in his article.

"Original documentation which explains specifically why the diamond symbol was added to the block, or what it signifies has not yet come to light. If found, it may indicate the casting supplier or location."
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:42 AM   #34
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Selective editing? Perhaps you need to read it again,the entire page.He makes it clear the heats weren't done at the Rouge,which was my point.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:29 AM   #35
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Selective editing? Perhaps you need to read it again,the entire page.He makes it clear the heats weren't done at the Rouge,which was my point.
LOL. You need to stop making false statements when It's stated what Vince found and his assumptions.

You stated: The diamond means it wasn't cast at the Rouge,dont know if that's a good thing or not.

That's False!

I'm done with this.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:39 PM   #36
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LOL. You need to stop making false statements when It's stated what Vince found and his assumptions.

You stated: The diamond means it wasn't cast at the Rouge,dont know if that's a good thing or not.

That's False!

I'm done with this.
It's ok if you can't comprehend what's written,just don't make an argument about it
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:13 PM   #37
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I was just making a play on words..."Diamond in the Rouge (Rough)". I wasn't insinuating the blocks were/weren't cast at the Rouge Plant.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:33 PM   #38
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I was just making a play on words..."Diamond in the Rouge (Rough)". I wasn't insinuating the blocks were/weren't cast at the Rouge Plant.
Its all good,I looked at your HAMB pics,that would be a nice project..

Ford manufactured in a continuous process,when service demanded items no longer in production logic dictates that some process were too expensive to perform in a jobber type short run at the Rouge,like casting,production demands precluded service need..Ford did ride herd on their subcontractors,both for cost and maintaining standards, the oral histories give a good idea of what it was like in production at the time.

http://cdm15889.contentdm.oclc.org/c...on/p15889coll2
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:15 AM   #39
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duplicate

Last edited by mike657894; 01-13-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:17 AM   #40
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I have a diamond on my block and no serial ill have to check my casting number. i had noticed a couple hardened seats but it didnt look like all were hardened but i may need to look closer. And how different is this B cam. my cam has very pointy lobes with no duration.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:46 AM   #41
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I have a diamond on my block and no serial ill have to check my casting number. i had noticed a couple hardened seats but it didnt look like all were hardened but i may need to look closer. And how different is this B cam. my cam has very pointy lobes with no duration.
Model A and B cams are both very pointy, unlike most of todays cams. It's a good thing the springs aren't as strong as what's used on most of todays engines, or those cam points would wear away very quickly. Give me back my zinc in the oil.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:02 AM   #42
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I would say you can tell by the fuel pump cam lobe and the maximum lift.The lobe if you have it is a dead give away.I have a B cam that appears to be unground yet only has a max lift of .270,yet all I can find on B cams puts the max at over .300..
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:49 PM   #43
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I looked at mine and it has the b cam with .315 of lift. It measured .895 and 1.210 I did that quick with a dial caliper so may not be accurate. It has hardened exhaust seats and I tried to do some rubbings of the casting marks and I think I see F1210 or FA210





looking at the picture. under flash it looks more like FA210. The F is the lightest letter and may just be a interesting rust formation.
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