The Ford Barn

louieglen · 12-16-2017, 10:21 PM

I have had, and worked on Model A's for the last 30 years, but I saw something today that I had never seen or heard of before. A model A will run without the condenser. Probably most of you knew this. This just goes to show you are never too old to learn.

GRutter · 12-16-2017, 11:24 PM

A missing or open condenser will not stop the ignition from working, but the points will arc or pit as a result. The purpose of the condenser is to reduce arcing as the points open.

Purdy Swoft · 12-17-2017, 12:05 AM

well I know that it doesn't have to have a condenser in the distributor to run . I'm running one of my model A's with the condenser connected to the switch side of the coil . This would be the side that the red wire connects to if you are running positive ground as original or the opposite side if running negative ground . An older guy showed me this trick in 1960 . Back in the day we didn't have the good short proof A&L condensers . The repro original style condensers , other than being difficult to install by the roadside , would often fail . The later style condenser with the pig tail wire was easy to install on the spot by hooking the pig tail wire to the switch side of the coil and cinecting the condenser to either the coil bracket or the firwall . The cheap condensers that are made in China won't last very long no matter where they are mounted . If you can find a good Echlin or other good modern condenser it will work well . If Photo bucket hadn't froze up my pictures I would post a picture . It has been said that the condenser must be close to the distributor . The coil isn't that far from the distributor . This setup has worked for years for me .

Mike V. Florida · 12-17-2017, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRutter

A missing or open condenser will not stop the ignition from working, but the points will arc or pit as a result. The purpose of the condenser is to reduce arcing as the points open.

As well as back feed into the coil for an added boost coming out.

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hc...t/1281430.html

Tom Wesenberg · 12-17-2017, 12:57 AM

You'll have a very small spark and points that burn up quickly if you try running with no condenser.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 12-17-2017, 06:13 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I heard of a Rube Goldberg repair, condenser FAILED & he twisted 2 lengths of insulated wire, to 2 sheets of foil. Put them in a MAGAZINE, separated by a page or two. One wire to a GROUND & one to the coil. Secured the magazine under the back edge of the hood & it RAN!
That arrangement is BASICALLY what a CONDENSOR is, except the components are ROLLED UP.
Bill Ibelieveit

noboD · 12-17-2017, 06:28 AM

My father taught me to test for a bad condenser by disconnecting it about 60 years ago. If the engine runs replace the condenser.

jhowes · 12-17-2017, 09:15 AM

noboD Need more information, this does not make any sense to me. It sounds like the engine will run with a bad condenser and with a good one so where is the test? Jack

George Miller · 12-17-2017, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowes

noboD Need more information, this does not make any sense to me. It sounds like the engine will run with a bad condenser and with a good one so where is the test? Jack

It will not run if the condenser shorts out.

Keith True · 12-17-2017, 10:55 AM

Many years ago the Niehoff rep told us that years ago the paper in condensers would break down and short out.He said that modern condensers,(this was in the 70's)would fail as an open.So yes,it was a quick test of condensers in the old days,not so accurate as condensers were better made in later years.

Crankster · 12-17-2017, 11:00 AM

Capacitors (condenser is an old name) must be tested at their rated voltage, a modern capacitor checker will test for capacitance value but not "leakage". A direct short would be be picked up though. But that's not the only failure mode. Condensers don't "improve" the spark per se, but form a part of a tuned circuit with the ignition coil, preventing arcing at the contact points. Think of it as a "shock absorber" or damper for the secondary ignition. More energy is directed at the plug gap where we want it.

mike657894 · 12-17-2017, 11:38 AM

so if you have a condensor short you can remove it and drive home?

noboD · 12-17-2017, 11:45 AM

A SHORT distance. As said it will cause the points to burn faster.

larrys40 · 12-17-2017, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

well I know that it doesn't have to have a condenser in the distributor to run . I'm running one of my model A's with the condenser connected to the switch side of the coil . This would be the side that the red wire connects to if you are running positive ground as original or the opposite side if running negative ground . An older guy showed me this trick in 1960 . Back in the day we didn't have the good short proof A&L condensers . The repro original style condensers , other than being difficult to install by the roadside , would often fail . The later style condenser with the pig tail wire was easy to install on the spot by hooking the pig tail wire to the switch side of the coil and cinecting the condenser to either the coil bracket or the firwall . The cheap condensers that are made in China won't last very long no matter where they are mounted . If you can find a good Echlin or other good modern condenser it will work well . If Photo bucket hadn't froze up my pictures I would post a picture . It has been said that the condenser must be close to the distributor . The coil isn't that far from the distributor . This setup has worked for years for me .

Hey Purdy... glad to see you back. I haven't posted much lately but I have ran them without a condenser accidentally and yes... it was hard to start and didn't run well but it ran. I had swapped distributor in a chassis I did and forgot to add the condenser!

Anyway.. hope you are well and good to see you back on the forums!
Larry Shepard

BILL WILLIAMSON · 12-17-2017, 12:15 PM

I tested condensors, by charging them with the 110Volt test lamp cords, on the Growler. If touching the wire to the case sparks, it's GOOD!
Used to also charge one & TOSS it to the SHOP IDIOT & ZAAAAAP!---LOL --And leaving HOT ones, just layin' around, for someone to pick up.
For awhile, Century Brand Condensors were JUNK. With a DWELL/TACH, I was making tune up adjustments, disconnected it & It DIED. Took the old Condensor from the trash, put it in & it RAN! Apparently, condensors in the meter were taking care of things.
Bill Awful

Purdy Swoft · 12-17-2017, 12:44 PM

I've never tried running without a condenser . My experience has been if a condenser or coil fails and you've got maybe 30 minutes to let things cool down , the engine will start and run maybe two or three miles before it starts to break up again . I have used the same condensers on 12 volts that I would use on 6 volts , I figure that anyone that has run 12 volts on their model A would know this . I run the A&L model A condenser on my roadster on 12 volts for the past 11 going on 12 years without a problem . I have used the Ford V8 condensers on both 6 or 12 volts even on model A's running Mallory dual point distributors . as far as I'm concerned there is no voltage rating on the common condenser that can be used on model A's or Ford V8 or Chevrolets . I took a used condenser off an old 49 chevy pickup and used it as a replace for a friends 250 Suzuki motor cycle and it worked for years .Just my thoughts on condensers .

Purdy Swoft · 12-17-2017, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrys40

Hey Purdy... glad to see you back. I haven't posted much lately but I have ran them without a condenser accidentally and yes... it was hard to start and didn't run well but it ran. I had swapped distributor in a chassis I did and forgot to add the condenser!

Anyway.. hope you are well and good to see you back on the forums!
Larry Shepard

Larry, it feels kinda good to be back . Its good to see you here as well !!! Thanks for the good information that you share . Its never too late to learn something new !!!
Your friend Purdy .

12-16-2017, 10:21 PM	#1
louieglen Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218	No condenser I have had, and worked on Model A's for the last 30 years, but I saw something today that I had never seen or heard of before. A model A will run without the condenser. Probably most of you knew this. This just goes to show you are never too old to learn.

12-16-2017, 11:24 PM	#2
GRutter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Mint Hill, North Carolina Posts: 386	Re: No condenser A missing or open condenser will not stop the ignition from working, but the points will arc or pit as a result. The purpose of the condenser is to reduce arcing as the points open.

12-17-2017, 12:05 AM	#3
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: No condenser well I know that it doesn't have to have a condenser in the distributor to run . I'm running one of my model A's with the condenser connected to the switch side of the coil . This would be the side that the red wire connects to if you are running positive ground as original or the opposite side if running negative ground . An older guy showed me this trick in 1960 . Back in the day we didn't have the good short proof A&L condensers . The repro original style condensers , other than being difficult to install by the roadside , would often fail . The later style condenser with the pig tail wire was easy to install on the spot by hooking the pig tail wire to the switch side of the coil and cinecting the condenser to either the coil bracket or the firwall . The cheap condensers that are made in China won't last very long no matter where they are mounted . If you can find a good Echlin or other good modern condenser it will work well . If Photo bucket hadn't froze up my pictures I would post a picture . It has been said that the condenser must be close to the distributor . The coil isn't that far from the distributor . This setup has worked for years for me .

12-17-2017, 12:57 AM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: No condenser You'll have a very small spark and points that burn up quickly if you try running with no condenser.

12-17-2017, 06:13 AM	#6
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: No condenser Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I heard of a Rube Goldberg repair, condenser FAILED & he twisted 2 lengths of insulated wire, to 2 sheets of foil. Put them in a MAGAZINE, separated by a page or two. One wire to a GROUND & one to the coil. Secured the magazine under the back edge of the hood & it RAN! That arrangement is BASICALLY what a CONDENSOR is, except the components are ROLLED UP. Bill Ibelieveit __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

12-17-2017, 06:28 AM	#7
noboD Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 319	Re: No condenser My father taught me to test for a bad condenser by disconnecting it about 60 years ago. If the engine runs replace the condenser.

12-17-2017, 09:15 AM	#8
jhowes Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: upstate NY near Mass border Posts: 789	Re: No condenser noboD Need more information, this does not make any sense to me. It sounds like the engine will run with a bad condenser and with a good one so where is the test? Jack

12-17-2017, 10:55 AM	#10
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,987	Re: No condenser Many years ago the Niehoff rep told us that years ago the paper in condensers would break down and short out.He said that modern condensers,(this was in the 70's)would fail as an open.So yes,it was a quick test of condensers in the old days,not so accurate as condensers were better made in later years.

12-17-2017, 11:00 AM	#11
Crankster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 563	Re: No condenser Capacitors (condenser is an old name) must be tested at their rated voltage, a modern capacitor checker will test for capacitance value but not "leakage". A direct short would be be picked up though. But that's not the only failure mode. Condensers don't "improve" the spark per se, but form a part of a tuned circuit with the ignition coil, preventing arcing at the contact points. Think of it as a "shock absorber" or damper for the secondary ignition. More energy is directed at the plug gap where we want it.

12-17-2017, 11:38 AM	#12
mike657894 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bay City Michigan Posts: 1,050	Re: No condenser so if you have a condensor short you can remove it and drive home?

12-17-2017, 11:45 AM	#13
noboD Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 319	Re: No condenser A SHORT distance. As said it will cause the points to burn faster.

12-17-2017, 12:15 PM	#15
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: No condenser I tested condensors, by charging them with the 110Volt test lamp cords, on the Growler. If touching the wire to the case sparks, it's GOOD! Used to also charge one & TOSS it to the SHOP IDIOT & ZAAAAAP!---LOL --And leaving HOT ones, just layin' around, for someone to pick up. For awhile, Century Brand Condensors were JUNK. With a DWELL/TACH, I was making tune up adjustments, disconnected it & It DIED. Took the old Condensor from the trash, put it in & it RAN! Apparently, condensors in the meter were taking care of things. Bill Awful __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

12-17-2017, 12:44 PM	#16
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: No condenser I've never tried running without a condenser . My experience has been if a condenser or coil fails and you've got maybe 30 minutes to let things cool down , the engine will start and run maybe two or three miles before it starts to break up again . I have used the same condensers on 12 volts that I would use on 6 volts , I figure that anyone that has run 12 volts on their model A would know this . I run the A&L model A condenser on my roadster on 12 volts for the past 11 going on 12 years without a problem . I have used the Ford V8 condensers on both 6 or 12 volts even on model A's running Mallory dual point distributors . as far as I'm concerned there is no voltage rating on the common condenser that can be used on model A's or Ford V8 or Chevrolets . I took a used condenser off an old 49 chevy pickup and used it as a replace for a friends 250 Suzuki motor cycle and it worked for years .Just my thoughts on condensers .