Replaced my carburetor...used copper line...going steel ASAP

[bobH]

I'm not advocating either way. But, will comment, there is a type of copper that IS APPROVED. I've forgotten which, but I think it might be 'K' ??
David, you are usually looked upon as an 'authority', but don't you think 'high probability' is a little 'over-stating'? There are numerous ways to have failures that might cause a fire. How about a 'spray-type' leak at the carb inlet, that sprays fuel in the direction of the rear of the generator? That would probably get your attention. And, it has nothing to do with type of material used.
I DO agree though, for the application stated, pump-to-carb, I prefer the copper-colored steel, only because it looks 'original', and not for any safety or technical reason. How about a comment from someone who really knows (David), what is the shape of ORIGINAL tube? I don't think I've seen what I could count on as being 'original'? Does original tube have two, or three, bends? And, how far to the left is it routed? Another way of asking this, approx length from carb inlet, to front 90-deg bend?
And, how about some comments on the correct ferrules? The vendor's (at least the vendor's I've used, Mac's, C&G) are selling these lines with common, cheapo, crappy ferrules like are commonly available at local hardware stores, the Depot, etc. Why aren't we demanding correct ferrules? The common ones are not what Ford used, not correct for the application, are inferior, and are prone to leak. David??
How about some comments on correct, proper installation of ferrules? What are we all using for a 'seating' fixture? I hope not the carb or fuel pump.
And, comments above about soldering - is that correct? Did Ford do that? Hard to believe, as a properly seated ferrule on proper tubing, will not leak - especially at the pressure we are using. However, if Ford DID solder, then, at what stage? I would suggest that a ferrule should be properly 'seated', before soldering. Is that what folks that solder are doing? And, what type of solder? I assume soft-solder (not silver-solder). I, for one, would not be qualified to do this solder job - I never managed to attend solder school. JMO

Kube, I don't think you should dismiss ALL 'compression' fittings. Have you ever worked with Swagelok's at high, really high, psi? I think it's the common ferrule's that are discussed here, that are the really poor performer's, and these are the ones we should avoid. I, for one, would like to NOT see them in ANY automotive application. And, I think the vendor's should make an effort to provide the original ferrules like Ford used, and like what are correct for the fittings being discussed here.
Another discussion someday... How to properly install a ferrule, how to make a proper flare, how to double flare (properly), pros & cons of 45deg SAE vs 37deg AN for auto fuel and brake lines, pros & cons of cone seals, etc, etc.
JMO

[Bruce Lancaster]

There is a copper based line that is even suitable for brake lines...trade name begins with "cupro.." I think. Commonly used in England for repairs and OEM, with a very strict inspection system in place, but this is expensive alloy stuff not at all like common copper tube.

[my4dv8]

Yes Bruce it is called Cupro nickel . So presume it is a blend of sorts. It is brake rated. Makes nice flares and bends being slightly softer.

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

There is a copper based line that is even suitable for brake lines...trade name begins with "cupro.." I think. Commonly used in England for repairs and OEM, with a very strict inspection system in place, but this is expensive alloy stuff not at all like common copper tube.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

X2 on the solder !
Charlie ny

Really? Curious on what this does. Doesn't the nut hold it tight enough?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by bobH

I'm not advocating either way. But, will comment, there is a type of copper that IS APPROVED. I've forgotten which, but I think it might be 'K' ??
David, you are usually looked upon as an 'authority', but don't you think 'high probability' is a little 'over-stating'? There are numerous ways to have failures that might cause a fire. How about a 'spray-type' leak at the carb inlet, that sprays fuel in the direction of the rear of the generator? That would probably get your attention. And, it has nothing to do with type of material used.
I DO agree though, for the application stated, pump-to-carb, I prefer the copper-colored steel, only because it looks 'original', and not for any safety or technical reason. How about a comment from someone who really knows (David), what is the shape of ORIGINAL tube? I don't think I've seen what I could count on as being 'original'? Does original tube have two, or three, bends? And, how far to the left is it routed? Another way of asking this, approx length from carb inlet, to front 90-deg bend?
And, how about some comments on the correct ferrules? The vendor's (at least the vendor's I've used, Mac's, C&G) are selling these lines with common, cheapo, crappy ferrules like are commonly available at local hardware stores, the Depot, etc. Why aren't we demanding correct ferrules? The common ones are not what Ford used, not correct for the application, are inferior, and are prone to leak. David??
How about some comments on correct, proper installation of ferrules? What are we all using for a 'seating' fixture? I hope not the carb or fuel pump.
And, comments above about soldering - is that correct? Did Ford do that? Hard to believe, as a properly seated ferrule on proper tubing, will not leak - especially at the pressure we are using. However, if Ford DID solder, then, at what stage? I would suggest that a ferrule should be properly 'seated', before soldering. Is that what folks that solder are doing? And, what type of solder? I assume soft-solder (not silver-solder). I, for one, would not be qualified to do this solder job - I never managed to attend solder school. JMO

Kube, I don't think you should dismiss ALL 'compression' fittings. Have you ever worked with Swagelok's at high, really high, psi? I think it's the common ferrule's that are discussed here, that are the really poor performer's, and these are the ones we should avoid. I, for one, would like to NOT see them in ANY automotive application. And, I think the vendor's should make an effort to provide the original ferrules like Ford used, and like what are correct for the fittings being discussed here.
Another discussion someday... How to properly install a ferrule, how to make a proper flare, how to double flare (properly), pros & cons of 45deg SAE vs 37deg AN for auto fuel and brake lines, pros & cons of cone seals, etc, etc.
JMO

I can comment on at least some of your queries...
* The '39 - '40 line between carb & pump had only two bends.
* Yes, Ford DID solder the ferrules at every end including the line from the tank to the flex hose.
* As a retired tool & die maker I have in fact worked with compression fittings at very high PSI specs. These were not what I was referring to within my comments about brake line "repairs". Perhaps I did not allow enough details in my discussion of poor brake line repairs. However, the point, I doubt, was lost on many. The guy that repairs a brake line by splicing in a line with compression fittings is obviously NOT seeking out high quality (high cost) fittings. Rather, he is seeking a low cost, quick and easy way to rig up a system.
* Like you, I am fully aware of the poopy most vendors sell in way of lines and fittings. Typically the fittings are a metric size across the flats of the nuts. The lines are 1/4" while the ferules are metric, making them incorrectly suited for a 1/4" line.
* While I agree with you that a discussion in regard to the proper way to bend, flare, seat ferules, etc. is a worthy endevour, it appears from my experience most guys fall in to one of two categories - those that actually care to learn and do a job correctly and those that simply want to get it "good enough" to roll down a street.
I continue to learn on a daily basis and as such have found numerous ways to increase the quality of my restoration and repair work. I enjoy the learning process as a way to test my own abilities.
I also feel it a duty to help others when I am able. I have been fortunate to have had a number of mentors as a younger man. Long gone now (rest their souls) I feel those that were properly trained owe it to the "youngin's" to pass this knowledge on.
So, back to your suggestion to teach the proper methods I ask you: "How many folks do you think really care enough to learn properly and then actually take that knowledge and apply it"?
My experience clearly has been MOST folks are quite happy with "good enough".
respectfully,
Mike

[Barry-ct]

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Green 50................. I said you'd open up a hornets nest!

When you go to a new car dealer to get a brake line or fuel lines ( older cars ) You get steel lines. We would buy it in a 50' roll and add our fittings. Now you can get the lines pre bent for most makes with some even coated to resist corrosion. I blew out a line on my 03 F-150 on a quick stop at a light. Replacement was steel.
If you want to use copper, so be it. Hopefully, nothing will happen to you or others. I will always use steel lines.

[Henry Hopper]

If fire really is s major worry for you, and I am not taking the chance of fire lightly, but I think that the Ethonal fuel that you use over in the U.S is more of a worry.I almost lost a stone stock 32 roadster that I bought from America.....the fuel had eaten the rubber fuel line and it burst, spraying fuel all over the engine,front fenders and the garage....the short length of rubber fuel line blew up like a sausage and split.I would say that stuff is more a fire risk than the remote chance( if any) of a short copper line breaking.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by green50

My original carburetor (94) was leaking at the gaskets so I changed it out with another one. When I put the steel fuel line back on it was leaking (ferrules bad). I made a new fuel line from copper (12"-16"), do you think of this is acceptable? It doesn't leak now. Thanks

There is no vibration or movement of the pump to carb line, it may not be the correct original material but will never work harden and fail, it takes hammering on the copper or quite a bit of bending to harden the copper.
The problem I see with ferrules leaking is they are made of hard brass and don't compress very well. Heat them a little until the color changes and dip in cold water. This will soften the ferrules and allow them to compress and seal. It's very hard to get those hard ones to seal. G.M.

[FlatheadTed]

I wouldn't use copper from pump to carb simply because the probability of removing it more often compresses the joints ,or ferules and its not long before you get leaks .Has any one done any tests as to ft ibs put out by a non vacuum boosted brake system ,Some cars had copper brake line from the factory such as Auburn and are still legal ,Some copper is rated at 600 psi

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Kube

I can comment on at least some of your queries...
* The '39 - '40 line between carb & pump had only two bends.
* Yes, Ford DID solder the ferrules at every end including the line from the tank to the flex hose.
* As a retired tool & die maker I have in fact worked with compression fittings at very high PSI specs. These were not what I was referring to within my comments about brake line "repairs". Perhaps I did not allow enough details in my discussion of poor brake line repairs. However, the point, I doubt, was lost on many. The guy that repairs a brake line by splicing in a line with compression fittings is obviously NOT seeking out high quality (high cost) fittings. Rather, he is seeking a low cost, quick and easy way to rig up a system.
* Like you, I am fully aware of the poopy most vendors sell in way of lines and fittings. Typically the fittings are a metric size across the flats of the nuts. The lines are 1/4" while the ferules are metric, making them incorrectly suited for a 1/4" line.
* While I agree with you that a discussion in regard to the proper way to bend, flare, seat ferules, etc. is a worthy endevour, it appears from my experience most guys fall in to one of two categories - those that actually care to learn and do a job correctly and those that simply want to get it "good enough" to roll down a street.
I continue to learn on a daily basis and as such have found numerous ways to increase the quality of my restoration and repair work. I enjoy the learning process as a way to test my own abilities.
I also feel it a duty to help others when I am able. I have been fortunate to have had a number of mentors as a younger man. Long gone now (rest their souls) I feel those that were properly trained owe it to the "youngin's" to pass this knowledge on.
So, back to your suggestion to teach the proper methods I ask you: "How many folks do you think really care enough to learn properly and then actually take that knowledge and apply it"?
My experience clearly has been MOST folks are quite happy with "good enough".
respectfully,
Mike

Amen. And, thank you Mike.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Really? Curious on what this does. Doesn't the nut hold it tight enough?

May have been to hold the parts together as a unit during production and assure that the ferrules were in the correct location on the tubes (handling and quality control). Not sure if this was repeated at the dealerships during repairs, that would be interesting to know.

[green50]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

A tip for multi carb lines.As you can see from the first pic the compression fitting copper lines and all the fittings just did not look right to me and leaked slightly.I just about severed a line by over tightening.I don't care for the fuel blocks that are placed on the firewall and then hoses to each carb.I took some left over 1/4 steel line and made this up.A little more work -especially lining up the line for the carb nearest the firewall.I had a friend tig weld the connection w/silicon bronze rod(no leaks)The loop going to the pump was done on purpose so as to facilitate removing the line without having to loosen the carbs or pump.Hope this helps.

That's a sweet looking setup!

[bmf]

It seems that some posters here believe that the engine does not vibrate and therefore cannot harm a copper line. Where did this theory come from? Hmmm?
Same with rough roads.

[joe plumber]

Originally Posted by bobH

I'm not advocating either way. But, will comment, there is a type of copper that IS APPROVED. I've forgotten which, but I think it might be 'K' ??
David, you are usually looked upon as an 'authority', but don't you think 'high probability' is a little 'over-stating'? There are numerous ways to have failures that might cause a fire. How about a 'spray-type' leak at the carb inlet, that sprays fuel in the direction of the rear of the generator? That would probably get your attention. And, it has nothing to do with type of material used.
I DO agree though, for the application stated, pump-to-carb, I prefer the copper-colored steel, only because it looks 'original', and not for any safety or technical reason. How about a comment from someone who really knows (David), what is the shape of ORIGINAL tube? I don't think I've seen what I could count on as being 'original'? Does original tube have two, or three, bends? And, how far to the left is it routed? Another way of asking this, approx length from carb inlet, to front 90-deg bend?
And, how about some comments on the correct ferrules? The vendor's (at least the vendor's I've used, Mac's, C&G) are selling these lines with common, cheapo, crappy ferrules like are commonly available at local hardware stores, the Depot, etc. Why aren't we demanding correct ferrules? The common ones are not what Ford used, not correct for the application, are inferior, and are prone to leak. David??
How about some comments on correct, proper installation of ferrules? What are we all using for a 'seating' fixture? I hope not the carb or fuel pump.
And, comments above about soldering - is that correct? Did Ford do that? Hard to believe, as a properly seated ferrule on proper tubing, will not leak - especially at the pressure we are using. However, if Ford DID solder, then, at what stage? I would suggest that a ferrule should be properly 'seated', before soldering. Is that what folks that solder are doing? And, what type of solder? I assume soft-solder (not silver-solder). I, for one, would not be qualified to do this solder job - I never managed to attend solder school. JMO

Kube, I don't think you should dismiss ALL 'compression' fittings. Have you ever worked with Swagelok's at high, really high, psi? I think it's the common ferrule's that are discussed here, that are the really poor performer's, and these are the ones we should avoid. I, for one, would like to NOT see them in ANY automotive application. And, I think the vendor's should make an effort to provide the original ferrules like Ford used, and like what are correct for the fittings being discussed here.
Another discussion someday... How to properly install a ferrule, how to make a proper flare, how to double flare (properly), pros & cons of 45deg SAE vs 37deg AN for auto fuel and brake lines, pros & cons of cone seals, etc, etc.
JMO

K copper is approved for underground use because it has a thicker wall than L or M .Never heard of K being approved for gasoline , water only that I know of .Makes no difference what you cut copper with as long as it is cut straight .The use of a cutter will leave a ridge inside the tube which will have to be reamed out ,where as a hacksaw will leave no ridge inside .

[Jack E/NJ]

dl>>>loop going to the pump>>>

I dunno. Looks more like a droop to me. 8^)

One or more wide radius loops can significantly reduce any kind of metal tubing stress & fatigue as well as facilitate disassembly, especially if the tubing connections tend NOT to move in unison.

Jack E/NJ

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

X2 on the solder !
Charlie ny

Do you install and tighten everything THEN remove and solder or do you set ferrule at 1/16" from end, solder, THEN install and tighten line?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Do you install and tighten everything THEN remove and solder or do you set ferrule at 1/16" from end, solder, THEN install and tighten line?

I set the ferule in a "donor" fuel pump I have. I do NOT use the carburetor nor pump on the car to seat the ferules. Once they have been seated, I apply the solder.
Ford did this on all their lines to avoid both fuel and air (vacuum) leaks.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Kube

I set the ferule in a "donor" fuel pump I have. I do NOT use the carburetor nor pump on the car to seat the ferules. Once they have been seated, I apply the solder.
Ford did this on all their lines to avoid both fuel and air (vacuum) leaks.

And this is done with the line sticking out 1/16" passed the ferrule correct??

[Steves46]

Although this is not an original & correct set-up, several years ago I installed hose barb fittings with an alcohol proof fuel injection hose between the fuel pump and carburetor with zero problems & zero leaks.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

And this is done with the line sticking out 1/16" passed the ferrule correct??

I never measured it but I would hazard a guess at closer to an 1/8".