239 Y-Block Trouble F250

[Chris_AAFord]

Hey Everyone,

I just purchased a 1954 Ford F250 in original condition, I brought it home late Tuesday night.

Here is what I have -

I looked at the truck to consider for purchase on Saturday, it did not start until we put a jump box on it (12 volt). Once it was started it ran ok and re started once without issue.

Tuesday night I purchased the truck and it started without the jump box. it was towed back to my house and it started a few times without issue and i drove it up and down the drive way a few times.

Wednesday I decided I would drive it to the corner gas station. It started right up, drove to the gas station (about a mile) and I got gas. Then it would not start. It cranked and I cranked it until the six volt was pretty drained.

Thursday - I charged the battery, it had good cranking power but it would not turn over. after a few unsuccessful tries I put a 12 volt jump back on it and got it to start. I let it run for a good 15 minutes, turned it off, and tried to re-start it. It would not start.

Where would you start with this issue? I'm thinking Carb (Holley 94). I also noticed some gas was weeping down the side of the carb so maybe the float is way out?

Thanks for all help!
Chris

[CrownVic55]

Check the coil. If 6 volt coil get a little weak they don't make much spark.

[Chris_AAFord]

Thank you, but I don't think it would run once it starts if the coil was bad. Also, I feel like bad coils are wives tales.

[Daves55Sedan]

It is not a good idea to jump a 6-volt system with a 12-volt source. Maybe fried contacts in the voltage regulator or damage 6-volt generator. Have you had the battery checked? These $120.00 batteries they sell nowadays only last about three years and they are done.

[Hot Rod Reverend]

What you have just described to us does not sound like a carb issue at all. You can check that you have fuel by removing the air cleaner, looking down the throat, and rotating the bell crank (or have someone mash the accelerator pedal a few times). If you see fuel down the throat, the carb is at least putting fuel into the manifold.

Start by looking at the charging system, it sounds like 1. Your battery does not have a full charge 2. The generator is not “re-charging” the battery once you have the engine running.

Generators are not alternators, you won’t get much of a charge at idle. Sounds like you really have not run the engine much or driven the truck at higher rpm... that battery needs a chance to charge.

Can you:
1. Charge the battery completely with a 6 volt power source?
2. Test the charging system with a multimeter?
3. Examine all points of electrical contact, including all grounds, the regulator, your cables, etc?

Can you post any photos of the setup?

Hoping we can help, lots of great guys here.

[Flathead]

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Be sure the battery cables are good heavy six volt ones. Voltage drop will kill your spark when cranking.

[Chris_AAFord]

so you guys think that it could be a charging problem even know the engine is cranking fairly well? I made the assumption that if the engine is cranking well that it should also have enough juice to make spark.

That being said, i do have it on a 6 volt charger and its been charging for a few hours.

I still think its flooding, I'm going to take a look at the float and needle tomorrow.

thanks for all of the help and keep it coming! I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow.

-Chris

[Hot Rod Reverend]

Chris-

You said on Thursday it would not turn over. This of course means a very weak battery or a weak connection to the battery...provided the engine is not new/tight. Also, your comment about the engine starting when you gave it 12 volt boost means you most probably have an issue where you are not getting enough spark. The old 50s starters drained a LOT of electricity when they were engaged, leaving very little for the coil, distributor, and spark plugs.

The temporary flooding issue could be that your are filling the cylinders with raw fuel each time you have to crank, crank, that starter. As you know, the fuel pump will keep on pumping while you crank, and even your idle circuits will let fuel go through because of engine vacuum at the least. Pump the pedal a few times, or do a full choke, and once the ignition fires you will have a lot of black smoke. That would make it look like you have a flooding carb when the carb is not really the issue.

I would suggest going back to square one, but if course it is hard to diagnose over the internet.

[Chris_AAFord]

Sorry - Maybe I used poor terms. On Thursday I charged the battery, it cranked fine but would not fire and had gas weeping down the side of the carb.

Today I have the battery up to 99% after charging overnight, I'll keep charging it and see what happens this afternoon. I'll also clean up the terminals for good measure.

Thanks for all of the help.

Chris

[dmsfrr]

I've had this battery tester probably since dirt was invented. Not expensive, ones like it should still be available at your local parts store.
It shows you the relative condition of each cell of any lead/acid vehicle battery with removable caps. After several hours charging all the balls should float when you draw a tube full of water/acid up into it. Having a weak cell (or two) will make a battery act up and be unreliable.

[Chris_AAFord]

This is a good idea, my charger tells me the ‘percent charged’ but it might not catch a bad cell.

After fully charging the battery, I can get it to start with some cranking but I still have a nearly impossible restart condition on the second start even if I get the engine good and hot. I also replaced the needle and seat and adjusted the float which helped a little but not much.

I’m going to dig into the battery cables and grounds today.

[rotorwrench]

Checking out the ignition system was more difficult on the Y-block since they decided to put the distributor at the rear. I'd pull the cap and look at the components. Pitted or burned points would indicate a bad condenser plus the problem of the points condition. If the points & condenser are new, that still doesn't mean the condenser is good. I've gotten bad ones right out of the box. Echlin was a good brand but they are now owned by Standard Motor Parts so I don't know about current quality but a person can only test them in situ or with a capacitor tester. You can turn the ignition on and open/close the points with a screw driver then put a spark plug on the coil wire & ground the plug body for a test of the coil output. You can also just hold the coil wire high tension lead away from a ground a bit but don't set yourself up for a jolt. It should have a strong blue spark. Check to see if the polarity is correct on the coil too. The older OEM coils had "Dist" & "Bat" terminal markings but the later ones are + or - . On a positive ground system, it's easy to have reverse polarity and that will weaken the spark. Coil polarity check tools are available or the old pencil lead test can be done to be sure.


There are a lot of other possibilities including flooded engine or fowled spark plugs but I always start with the easiest thing first and that would be the condenser. A compression check might not be a bad idea. An engine with low compression is hard to start and the plugs fowl easily.


The old carb may have an internal leak or blown power valve that could cause the engine to flood. That would cause hard starting too. I would still check the easy things first though. Trouble shooting can take a while but the problem is in there somewhere.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Flathead

Be sure the battery cables are good heavy six volt ones. Voltage drop will kill your spark when cranking.

Originally Posted by Chris_AAFord

. . .
I’m going to dig into the battery cables and grounds today.

Besides obvious corrosion, look at all the cable terminal connections and make sure they are as clean as you can possibly get them, light sand paper works well. I've seen silver paint used to make the lugs 'look nicer', bad idea.

It's also possible someone in the past replaced a battery cable or the starter cable with whatever was handy at the local discount store. For a 6v vehicle to start easily the three main cables can't be the commonly found 2 or 4 gauge versions. They really need to be '0' or maybe '1' gauge, at the smallest. They're about the diameter of your thumb, not your little finger.
.

[Brendan]

ii have a 36 Ford Pickup, all stock 6 volts. when i first got it, it was very hard to start. and it was getting worse. when i would let off the starter it would fire, if it was not flooded. the trouble was loose battery cables. i tightened the connection at the starter switch. then it would spin over like it had 12 volts. the thing with 6 volts is the lower voltage there is more Resistance. 12 volts there is less resistance its Ohm's law. oh one other thing is my pickup was not getting the right voltage to the coil, that is why it was hard to start. so make sure that all your connections are clean and tight. and make sure that the cables are the right size 1/0 or bigger

[Daves55Sedan]

On the hard starting problem during the second crank, I would check the condenser in the distributor. Sometimes, after the temperature warms up an old condenser, it will fail at least until after the condenser cools again, then the engine can be started.
While you are in there, check the contacts on your points. If there is pitting, you should file the points with a miniature file or emery cloth, then re-adjust point gap as needed. Swipe a little bearing grease on the distributor cam too.

[Chris_AAFord]

Thanks for everyone's advice, it has all helped make this truck run better

Here is what I have done - replaced the condenser and cleaned and adjusted the points. I put a new battery in it and I cleaned all of the grounds. Spark plugs were black and replaced. I installed a new needle and seat in the carb and replaced two fuel filters.

Here is where I am now - when the truck is dead cold I can get it to start right up on the first crank with a little choke. The truck idles nice and it no longer stall
s out frequently.

Here is the issue I still have - Once the truck gets hot, its harder to impossible to get re-started.

I'm thinking i still need to work on the carb float level, but I already dropped the float height to 1.5 inches. The only other hunch I have is that the starter does not seem to have the cranking speed when the engine is hot as it did when its cold. it seems that if i can get the starter cranking fast that it will start.

Thanks for all help.
Chris

[paul2748]

It sounds like you need the starter rebuilt

[Daves55Sedan]

I drove a '55 with 272 that had the original starter for decades (6-volt system). It was always alright if I was just going back and forth from work, but I could never stop in between and shut off the engine to run an errand because if I did, I knew the starter would dog and it would not start the engine. The heat does have a negative effect on an old starter.
I finally got a brand new repro starter from one of the resto parts suppliers some years back. Ever since then I could stop and start whenever, wherever and however many times I wanted without a problem.

[Chris_AAFord]

This is a good thought, I thought of a starter as more binary.

Does anyone have a reference for a good part number for a 1954 Ford F-250 starter for a 239 OHV with a manual trans? I’m having trouble finding good numbers.

[dmsfrr]

I'm sure someone will come up with a part number, but I'd suspect 'most all 6v Y-block starters are the same by now.
Another option...
Look for a good old-school starter/generator/alternator shop near you and get it rebuilt. It could be just worn bushings or brushes. Much less expensive, and no shipping charges.

.

[Chris_AAFord]

I went to my local starter and alternator shop and was able to get a new starter. The starter does seem to have a little more speed than the old starter. But i'm still having the same issue.

The Truck sat for two days, I bolted the new starter up and the truck fired up instantly. I let it warm up and drove it around the block and then it would not restart.(cranks but does not start).

Is it safe to assume that I can eliminate a poor ground issue at this point? It's not the starter.

The truck has a pretty thick gas smell so I'm starting to lean in the direction of Flooding. My second thought is maybe the timing is off but it runs pretty good when it starts. Is it possible for the timing advance to be stuck in the advanced position and then settle back into the retarded position once the engine cools down? This is the load-a-matic distributor.

Thanks for all Help.

Chris

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Chris_AAFord

The truck has a pretty think gas smell so I'm starting to lean in the direction of Flooding. My second thought is maybe the timing is off but it runs pretty good when it starts. Is it possible for the timing advance to be stuck in the advanced position and then settle back into the retarded position once the engine cools down? This is the load-a-matic distributor.

What is the state of tune of the engine? You have checked the points and basic timing, plugs and wires, operation of the LOM dist, compression test?

After a 2nd hard crank have you pulled a plug to see if it is wet? Depending on how the engine was previously treated and used, the fuel may be bad.

I would throw a carb kit in it and verify good fuel filter, fuel pressure, fuel lines integrity and bring the IGN to specs before beating my head against the wall.

You maybe should also do a starting system voltage drop test when the engine is cold and then hot. This will give you an indication of any problem(s) in the starting circuit.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Chris_AAFord

I went to my local starter and alternator shop and was able to get a new starter. The starter does seem to have a little more speed than the old starter. But i'm still having the same issue.

The Truck sat for two days, I bolted the new starter up and the truck fired up instantly. I let it warm up and drove it around the block and then it would not restart.(cranks but does not start).

The truck has a pretty thick gas smell so I'm starting to lean in the direction of Flooding.

Sounds like carb/fuel line heat soak and percolation. Does fine when cold but when hot after shutdown, the fuel in the fuel line expands and forces the needle/seat to open, flooding the carb and engine.


Don't count out fuel blend separation also.


Tee in a fuel pressure gauge and watch it after shutdown. Keep hood closed.

[Chris_AAFord]

Thank you!

What do you think of this test I just thought of. I’m going to start the truck and get it good and hot, crimp the rubber fuel line and let it burn off all the gas in the carb until it dies.

Then I’ll un-crimp the line and see if it starts. If it starts this should indicate that too much gas / flooding is the reason for the no restart condition.

Thanks again for your help.

Chris

[scicala]

Vapor lock does not cause the carb to overfill and flood the engine. Basicly the opposite of that. The vehicle runs out of fuel because the fuel pump cannot push the vapor in the fuel line or fuel pump, so the carb goes dry.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

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Originally Posted by Chris_AAFord

What do you think of this test I just thought of. I’m going to start the truck and get it good and hot, crimp the rubber fuel line and let it burn off all the gas in the carb until it dies.

Then I’ll un-crimp the line and see if it starts. If it starts this should indicate that too much gas / flooding is the reason for the no restart condition.

Thanks again for your help.

Chris

That will work (remember, the carb will be completely dry and may take a while to function correctly) but it would be easier (IMO) before attempting to start a hot engine would be to look down the carb body to see if the throttle plates are wet and/or fuel is dribbling from the throttle bore shaft and/or mounting gasket.

Your particular problem is hard hot start, no problem running after cold or hot start?

Once the plugs become wet/carboned, the cylinders have to somewhat dry out before she will fire. Sounds like fuel percolation and needing the carb rebuilt to correct specs.

It is not the engine so much (though it does need servicing) as today's gasoline. It is formulated for EFI and EVAP.

Vacuum and Fuel Pump - Star Products TU-1PB

[dmsfrr]

.
If the fuel line isn't very new crimping it may split it on the inside while looking ok on the outside. Then make a big mess a few days later when you aren't looking.

Originally Posted by Chris_AAFord

. . . Is it possible for the timing advance to be stuck in the advanced position and then settle back into the retarded position once the engine cools down? This is the load-a-matic distributor.

Yes it can be stuck, but not usually in the advanced position. You can check it with a timing light.
Look for a timing change from idle to partially open throttle.The moving plate the points are mounted to may need to be cleaned and lightly lubed after all these years.
While you're in there it won't hurt to double check the ground connections for the points.

[Chris_AAFord]

I didn’t get to read the last two post before I started working on the truck this evening but I think I was heading in the same direction.

Again, the truck fired cold on the first turn and yes it runs pretty good once it’s running from what I’ve seen taking it around the block. I drove the truck around the block and got it good and hot. Again, once I shut it off I could not get it restarted. One thing I noted was that the manifolds were very hot but the fuel lines were not hot at all.

Next I found a old fuel pressure gauge in the garage and hooked it up post fuel pump, my first surprise was that the truck all of the sudden was running again with the fuel line off the carb. The fuel pressure gauge read a little over 5 PSI. I ran out to the parts store and got a simple inline fuel pressure regulator set it to 2 psi and it fired up and it seemed to run smoother at idle. I let it run for awhile and tried to restart it, it didn’t start right away but I was able to get it Started after some cranking.

I set the regulator to 2 psi but when I gave it gas it started to stumble so iturned it up to 2.5 PSI which helped. I lowered my float level quite a bit so I probably need to raise that back up now that I have the correct fuel PSI. I’ll work on that tomorrow.

Why is my factory fuel pump putting out too much pressure? How were these regulated from the factory?

-Chris

[dmsfrr]

Were the exhaust manifolds abnormally hot?
I'm not meaning to go overboard about timing since it likely isn't causing the hard starting problem but your 'stuck timing advance' and "very hot" comments reminded me... here's a link to an article about timing advance. It was written for '55/'56 T-bird owners but applies to any load-o-matic distributor.

https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/Crac...stManifold.php

[Chris_AAFord]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Were the exhaust manifolds abnormally hot?
I'm not meaning to go overboard about timing since it likely isn't causing the hard starting problem but your 'stuck timing advance' and "very hot" comments reminded me... here's a link to an article about timing advance. It was written for '55/'56 T-bird owners but applies to any load-o-matic distributor.

https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/Crac...stManifold.php

The manifolds did not seem to be excessively hot, I was just trying to make the point that the engine was at operating temperature and the fuel lines did not seem to be holding much heat.

I’ll take a look at that loadamatic article. Thank you.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Don't count out fuel blend separation also.

Originally Posted by scicala

Vapor lock does not cause the carb to overfill and flood the engine. Basicly the opposite of that. The vehicle runs out of fuel because the fuel pump cannot push the vapor in the fuel line or fuel pump, so the carb goes dry.

Sal

Sal,

Vapor lock (experienced on suction side of mechanical fuel pump) was not referred to, blend separation was, although either could be a contributing factor depending on fuel type and/or condition.

If the vehicle experiences excessive heat soak, either malady can contribute to no-start on an attempted hot start.

Am I somewhat correct in my assumption(s)?

[Motorhead6]

Originally Posted by paul2748

It sounds like you need the starter rebuilt

Pail hit on a very common problem with those old carbs. Symptoms are exactly as you are experiencing. A rebuild is in your future or better yet, a new reproduction carb is available from many sources. Those old carbs are near impossible to make and KEEP right; always leaking. There are people reading this that will offer a rebuild and will do a very good job.
Save money in the long run with a new carb. Also, the fact that it is leaking externally probably means the butterfly shaft bores are worn. Replace with a new carb; you will be happy you did.

My opinion and worth every cent you paid for it.

[rotorwrench]

Actually is was the shade tree wrenchers that did the damages to some carbs more often than not. They aren't a bad design. Power valves can blow out and leak and castings can get warped by heavy handed assemblers. Any substantial leak in the induction system will flood a warmed up engine after shut down. If the spark plugs get wet fowled during start attempts, they take a while to dry back out. Some of the late type power valves don't seal up right either.

When there is heat sensitivity involved, the first and cheapest thing you can do is replace the condenser in the distributor. If the points are burned by a bad condenser than they should also be replaced. I use the Echlin brand stuff from NAPA but they were recently bought out by Standard Motor Parts so I hope they keep up the quality standards of the Echlin company. I always keep a new spare condenser around just in case one doesn't live up to its potential. They just aren't as reliable as they used to be back in the day.

[scicala]

Too many people and suggestions gets confusing to the original poster sometimes. Have fun.


Sal

[Chris_AAFord]

Any thoughts on the 1/4 inch thick gasket between my carb and intake? Is this necessary or can I use the standard gasket that came with a rebuild kit?

[50fordcoupeman]

Not a wives tale. Coils can fail when they get hot. Mine started/ran perfectly until the coil would get hot. This took 7 or 8 miles. I had 4 new "quality" coils from NAPA that failed. Junk from wherever..........

[CrownVic55]

That was my point on post #2. Changing out the coil is a lot easier and cheaper than some of the things he has tried. Years ago on my 55 it had the same problems. Maybe with two people suggesting it, he will try a new coil.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Sounds like carb/fuel line heat soak and percolation. Does fine when cold but when hot after shutdown, the fuel in the fuel line expands and forces the needle/seat to open, flooding the carb and engine.

Don't count out fuel blend separation also.

Tee in a fuel pressure gauge and watch it after shutdown. Keep hood closed.

The first two and a half minutes of this video will show heat percolation effect on fuel line delivery/pressure (on pressure side of mechanical fuel pump)-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cadNfSNi_Oc

The below was found regarding the 57 BIRD 312 SC engine. It (fuel percolation - vapor lock) was also a problem then with good fuel (then blended for carburetion).

Post from another board-

'55-'57 'Birds have a long standing issue with under-hood operating temperature. One of the things I learned at Ford Carlisle last year (the E & F code reunion) was the change Ford made with the Phase II superchargers used on the 'Birds.


Only on the 'Birds, Ford added a fuel return line from the engine compartment to the gas tank. The return line provides a constant flow of fuel from the engine compartment back to the gas tank to serve as a way to keep the under hood fuel temp down to prevent vapor lock.

[Chris_AAFord]

I did put a new coil on, it did not fix the issue. I also put a new carb on, it runs a lot better but same issue.

Great video on vapor lock- I did not know the gas could boil so low. Any tips to fix this if your not interested in adding an electric fuel pump?

When I have my warm no start issue, the car will not react to starter fluid. If my issue was vapor lock, shouldn’t I get some popping with starter fluid?

Thanks,
Chris

[KULTULZ]

Chris-


The first thing you do when a car stops and/or won't start is to check for IGN spark and FUEL delivery.


Saves a lot of time and money by simply replacing this and that and hoping.


The video showed the problem(s) that can result with modern low boiling point fuel. It was even a problem when the vehicle was new (and used fuel for the period).



Ascertain what problem(s) you actually have and we can go from there.

[tinman080]

A good carb spacer will help with vapor lock. Insulate your fuel line. A good braided ground strap from the engine to a frame rail in addition to the battery ground will cure a lot of cranking/charging ills.