Bonded brake shoes

[1929]

who sells bonded brake pads? I heard the majority prefer them instead of riveted pads because they can damage the brake drums.

[Mitch//pa]

pads are for disc brakes..
shoes are drum brakes and the proper terminology is lining

i have seen bonded linings become unglued from the shoe and bonded linings do not dissipate heat as good as riveted, which makes them prone to heat cracks.
i use riveted woven linings

[1929]

thanks Mitch

[1930artdeco]

I got mine from Mel Gross's son, same phone number etc. Working great so far.

Mike

[RonC]

I don't see any benefit to risk of damage to your drums by using bonded over riveted shoes. You can damage your drums with bonded shoes too. The shoe can wear to the metal and you will end up with a damaged drum.

[Paul_nz]

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My understanding is that it is more important to match the lining with the drum. i.e. woven with steel drums, bonded with cast iron drums. Interesting thread, I am looking forward to others replying

Paul

[CT AV8]

Originally Posted by Paul_nz

My understanding is that it is more important to match the lining with the drum. i.e. woven with steel drums, bonded with cast iron drums. Interesting thread, I am looking forward to others replying

Paul

Paul, Ford used woven linings on mechanical cast iron drums '32-'38

[1929]

I switched to the cast iron drums

[Ed Saniewski]

Is there a way to remove the bonded pad from the shoe? I have a set that came with the cast iron brake drums from Mel Gross, and I could not get them centered. I switched back to the riveted woven type and they are working great. I would love to save the shoe, or I will sell the set at Hersey.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Ed Saniewski

Is there a way to remove the bonded pad from the shoe? I have a set that came with the cast iron brake drums from Mel Gross, and I could not get them centered. I switched back to the riveted woven type and they are working great. I would love to save the shoe, or I will sell the set at Hersey.

Bonded LININGS will come unstuck with a little heat and prying with a spatula or screw driver. The shoes will be quite saveable and serviceable.

[Kevin in NJ]

Ford switched to rivet composition linings by the end of 1931 and was selling it as replacement linings through the dealers.

I have a NOS Ford script set.

As for what is better, I have seen no scientific study over which is better. The only proven fact is properly arch to drum and properly centered shoes let the car stop as fast as the little tires can.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Ed Saniewski

Is there a way to remove the bonded pad from the shoe? I have a set that came with the cast iron brake drums from Mel Gross, and I could not get them centered. I switched back to the riveted woven type and they are working great. I would love to save the shoe, or I will sell the set at Hersey.

If the linings are good I'd sell them at Hershey. You should get more money that way than as a core charge.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Ed -
Funny, you should ask how to remove bonded lining material from brake shoes! I just did this for the first time on Wednesday. Bonded brake linings that I had installed on brake shoes 15 years ago in Phoenix squeaked from Day One, no matter what I did: periodic sanding of the drums and shoes, use of Brake Medic anti-squeal spray, moving the drums outwards, etc. NOTHING worked. The shoes squealed right away. I had been using bonded modern linings with cast iron drums for years prior to this with no such problems, but the local company I had used all that time went out of business. So, I tried a different brake shoe company. They must re-lined the shoes with a different composition because they have been unsatisfactory for almost 15 years. The car is seldom driven, so it has been an on-again/off-again irritant.
Anyway, I decided last week that enough was enough - the bonded linings had to come off and be replaced with woven linings. In all my years of fooling around with Model A's (50+), I had never personally removed bonded linings from shoes prior to having them re-lined. I let the brake shoe company do that. Well, now I'm living in a different town, where the tradespeople know and do as little as possible. In other words, 99% of the time I'm on my own. I wasn't sure how to do this, though. Grinding would have produced clouds of dangerous brake shoe dust, besides taking forever to complete. So, I took a chisel and hammer and began driving between the lining and the metal brake shoe, pulling upwards when the chisel had penetrated a bit. As I continued to do this, I could only pull up chunks of lining material, not strips. But then I found that if I could pry up a flap in the middle, I could place the chisel lengthwise and pry up more of the lining in each direction. It took several attempts, but in five
minutes the majority of the bonded material had been peeled away in this manner. The remnants of isolated chunks that did not peel away cleanly were first chisleled away, followed by the grinder to achieve 100% exposed metal. The first shoe took the longest, of course, until the secret of prying from the middle was stumbled upon. I would say it took fewer than five minutes to completely remove all the bonded lining material from each shoe once the rhythm was established. A heck of a lot cheaper and faster than taking the shoes to a brake company!
Yesterday I installed the new woven linings with the tool available from the vendors. It works very well, although I would like to have seen the rivet spreader be made of a more hardened steel. The tip is kind of mushed over now. Anyway, try this suggestion and you'll be surprised how easy this seemingly daunting task can be mastered. I'll post pictures a little later this morning.
Marshall

[Marshall V. Daut]

Here are the promised photos. I thought that I had taken at least one photo of the chiseling process, but I couldn't find it. Well, you'll see the flow in the attached photos from when the bonded linings were in place through the finished re-lining.
By the way, I have found the best way to rivet on the new woven linings is from the center outwards, which ensures centering of the lining on the shoe. Others may vary in their experience.
Marshall

[Tom Wesenberg]

Marshall, I wonder if beveling the ends of the bonded shoes could have stopped the squeal?

[Y-Blockhead]

I just replaced my linings with woven, riveted linings also. The molded, bonded shoes were overheating and I had terrible brake fade.

When riveting, starting in the center is the way to go. I see you had to 'modify' your anvil for clearance also. Don't forget to chamfer the ends (I'm sure you did, I just can't tell from the pictures.

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Marshall, I wonder if beveling the ends of the bonded shoes could have stopped the squeal?

Good point Tom. But my bonded shoes were beveled/chamfered and the rears would still squeal when they got hot. I think the material itself was too hard (in my case).

[Marshall V. Daut]

Tom -
I had placed thin shims behind the inner wheel bearings in front to move the brake drums out a bit and away from the edges of the shoes, and axle shims in the rear for the same reason. It didn't help. There was no sign of rubbing on the drums against the brake shoe edges or material. I think - like "Y-Blockhead" - that the lining was just too darned hard for the new Model A cast iron brake drums. I will be installing the re-lined shoes this week, once the new brake spring set arrives. I am confident that changing the brake shoe material to soft woven will solve the squealing problem.
Although the new linings were slightly beveled on the ends, I increased the angle of the bevel a little to compensate for the un-riveted lining ends sticking up slightly. That should eliminate false brake drum seating problems. I'll remove the shims to bring the drums back inwards, which will mean that I will also bevel the outside lining edges, too.
Marshall

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

In past years, on many brands of cars, BONDED lining did a GREAT job, in general. They used different friction qualities of lining, depending on if it was a PRIMARY or a SECONDARY shoe, etc.
NOWADAYS, they seem to just throw on ANYTHING, as long as it's "BLACKISH-GREY"!!!
We felt that heat dissipation was better, with bonded shoes! BUT, what do I know?????????????????????????????????
Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

In past years, on many brands of cars, BONDED lining did a GREAT job, in general. They used different friction qualities of lining, depending on if it was a PRIMARY or a SECONDARY shoe, etc.
NOWADAYS, they seem to just throw on ANYTHING, as long as it's "BLACKISH-GREY"!!!
We felt that heat dissipation was better, with bonded shoes! BUT, what do I know?????????????????????????????????
Bill W.

Don't you just love all those cob web cracks in bonded lining,, due to the GREAT heat dissipation

[Roger V]

I have woven linings (BTW,Mitch, good for you on correct terminology) and cast iron drums on two A's, arced/arched, beveled, centered, prayed-over, and they squeal. Sanded the glaze on the lining as well as the drum and a hundred miles later, squealed. Made rubber band noise absorbers like on a drum lathe, still squealed. Just got back a half hour ago from a 68 mile run, squealed. As a comparison, I have woven on a third A with original steel drums with reinforcing/heat dissipating bands, never a squeal in 3000 miles. Have heard for years that woven go with steel and hard lining with cast but never had good braking with hard lining. Probably, those that said hard with cast may have been thinking of later cars whereby hydraulic pressure vs. mechanical worked ok. At any rate still looking for that anti-squeal solution...........