Ford-O-Matic - adjustment?

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The FOM with dual pumps are just redundant so the car can be towed. The front pump is the main pump but the rear pump allows the car to be push started and towed without internal damage.

There are several things that could be causing your problems. First thing I'd check is TV pressure at idle. It has to have the correct pressure to hold it in gear. If pressure can't be positively adjusted with the TV rod adjustment then there is a fluid leak somewhere. It could also be a loose band adjustment. Either the fluid pressure isn't enough to hold the band actuator tight or it may need a band adjustment.

These old transmissions had no modulator so fluid pressure is all controlled by the throttle valve (TV rod). At idle it should be between 60 & 80 psi. The higher the throttle setting the more pressure it needs to get positive shift and hold enough pressure on the clutches. I think the highest pressure wouldn't exceed 160 psi so the gauge needed isn't all that bad to source & use but a person has to have hose & fittings to attach it.

They used this system till the vacuum modulator was added in 1961 or so. They started using it again when the AOD came out in 1979 or 80. The set up is very reliable as long as it is correctly adjusted. If it is correctly adjusted then it's something else causing the problem.

Ah ok I didn't know that.

I called a few transmissions shops today while at work to get an idea. I didn't hear back from them except for one. They told me it would be a 7 to 8 week turn around as they would have to ship this transmission to Jasper Engine and Transmission and it would be a 3 year 100,000 mile warranty but it would be $2,500 for the job with me pulling the transmission myself.

I don't know about anyone else but $2,500 is kind of excessive in my book when a rebuild kit is available for $150. I could see up to $1,000 maybe even $1,200 but I couldn't see anything over $1,500 for this transmission to overhaul it.

So I will be calling Timeless Texas Classic`s after my lunch break and see what I am looking at from them.

I am not against having this transmission rebuilt. Just need the car running so I can put it on a trailer for when I move.

On the TV rod I have adjusted it but its set at 3 turns from the internal stop. I could possibly try attempting to go another 1/2 turn or 1 turn more to see if that makes a difference.

But I see the maintaince is like 15,000 miles for band and fluid service and last service done on this transmission was 79,400 miles. So could be bands needing adjustment.

But it just confuses the hell out of me cause the thing will go into gear and stay in gear if I put it in gear now. But if I drive it and hit the brakes coming to a stop it wants to fall out of gear into neutral and wont go into neutral even with a little gas I have to manually drop into L to get it to engage again.

Guess what I will do is plan on just driving the car a little see if it wants to get better with a second drive if not then I will just pull it down for a rebuild and make sure they use the newer paper style clutches so I can run Dextron transmission fluid.

[Daves55Sedan]

Back in 2006, I took a Ford-O-Matic out for a rebuild, got a gasket set for $100, took it all to the trustworthy outfit that I had found. Their total labor cost was $250.00 and that included converter also. I can't imagine the cost going up so much more in just a dozen years.

[40 Deluxe]

Going on memory again, but your tranny normally starts from a dead stop in 2nd gear, and the front band is only applied in 2nd. This may be the cause of no movement when warmed up. Cold fluid is thicker so the front band servo may hold at first then lose pressure when warmed up. Shifting into manual 'low' puts the trans in 1st gear, where the front band is not used. When you get moving and shift back to 'D', do you feel it shift twice ( to 2nd and then to 3rd) or just one shift (to 3rd) with a big drop in RPM? The 2nd band servo can be removed by just dropping the pan-just take note of the band struts so you get them back in position.
I vaguely remember a weird problem I had with one over 50 years ago. There is an aluminum plug in the front end of the output shaft with holes to direct oil flow. This plug had shifted out of position and did strange things to the pressure. As I remember (not sure) the pressure would drop way low as soon as the vehicle started to move.

[rotorwrench]

The old FOMs are all about pressure. The pressure has to be right so clutches & bands won't slip. More pressure firms up the shift but can make it too harsh if PSI is too high. Too low a pressure and things will slip and burn up. Any slippage will cause damage sooner than later.


The old rubber seals go flat and get hard. This can lead to leakage. The tubes to the back end can leak too but that is usually caused by heavy handling. The seal rings can also wear and leak some.


Any good transmission shop can rebuild one of the old FOM or Cruise-O-Matic units but it's a good idea to talk to them about it first and provide factory manuals if necessary. I keep a copy of the early FOM 51 thru 53 manual for the 1st gen ones. I don't have the later ones for the improved units and ones with oil coolers but I've seen them listed in CD form.

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

Back in 2006, I took a Ford-O-Matic out for a rebuild, got a gasket set for $100, took it all to the trustworthy outfit that I had found. Their total labor cost was $250.00 and that included converter also. I can't imagine the cost going up so much more in just a dozen years.

That's what I thought. I see the rebuilt kit on macs is $155 for a small case Ford-O-Matic. Couldn't see much more than $750 - $800 in labor I could see $1,000 for everything removing the transmission and all but that is about max.

Boss called up a shop we use at work that I didn't have the number to they told him to relay to me that if the transmission doesn't need any hard parts like bands or pumps a simple rebuild would be around $800 parts and labor. Im going to give them a call and see what I would look at to have both bands replaced so I know what I could expect price wise before I take the car in.

They said the bands are hard to find and they are pricy as they would send my bands out and have them relined.

As far as their know how they told my boss they got a bunch of old cars there they are doing transmissions on they got a old Packard they are rebuilding the transmission on right now.

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Going on memory again, but your tranny normally starts from a dead stop in 2nd gear, and the front band is only applied in 2nd. This may be the cause of no movement when warmed up. Cold fluid is thicker so the front band servo may hold at first then lose pressure when warmed up. Shifting into manual 'low' puts the trans in 1st gear, where the front band is not used. When you get moving and shift back to 'D', do you feel it shift twice ( to 2nd and then to 3rd) or just one shift (to 3rd) with a big drop in RPM? The 2nd band servo can be removed by just dropping the pan-just take note of the band struts so you get them back in position.
I vaguely remember a weird problem I had with one over 50 years ago. There is an aluminum plug in the front end of the output shaft with holes to direct oil flow. This plug had shifted out of position and did strange things to the pressure. As I remember (not sure) the pressure would drop way low as soon as the vehicle started to move.

Its hard for me to tell I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention but starting in first I shifted to drive nearly instantly after I started moving and felt only 1 shift. Might have bypassed 1st gear since I shifted it manually so quickly and I didn't have my foot to the floor when I was pulling away from the light.

Flooring it from cruising at 30 mph I felt the transmission downshift and felt only one shift long winded from 30 mph to 60mph when it shifted right at 60 mph. I think because I was at 30 mph if I remember what I read right it was already too fast for it to downshift into 1st gear.

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old FOMs are all about pressure. The pressure has to be right so clutches & bands won't slip. More pressure firms up the shift but can make it too harsh if PSI is too high. Too low a pressure and things will slip and burn up. Any slippage will cause damage sooner than later.


The old rubber seals go flat and get hard. This can lead to leakage. The tubes to the back end can leak too but that is usually caused by heavy handling. The seal rings can also wear and leak some.


Any good transmission shop can rebuild one of the old FOM or Cruise-O-Matic units but it's a good idea to talk to them about it first and provide factory manuals if necessary. I keep a copy of the early FOM 51 thru 53 manual for the 1st gen ones. I don't have the later ones for the improved units and ones with oil coolers but I've seen them listed in CD form.

Yep that's why I want to have it rebuilt but I was wishful I guess that I could get it to work for limited driving but boss called up transmission wholesaler`s down here that we use at work and they told him this transmission if all it needs is a rebuild with no hard parts needing replacement such as pumps or bands it would be about $800. be more if the bands need replacing or hardparts as some are very hard and expensive to find.

Im going to give them a call tomorrow or so myself and see what I would be looking at for them to rebuild this transmission priced out with both bands so I know how much money I should have saved up to be safe.

I also called up Timeless Texas Classics as they wont be far from me after my move they can do this transmission for me as well but no price quote over the phone.

As far as manuals goes I got a 56 transmission manual but these guys work on old cars too from what I heard when my boss called them. They told him they were currently rebuilding a Packard transmission right now.

[rotorwrench]

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The old FOMs & COMs have cast iron cases. They like to crack when folks get them stuck in the mud & start rocking them. I've replaced a few on the MX COMs. The clutches are metal plates. Steels & bronzes have to be replaced if burned or worn down. There will be metal in the pan if a lot of wear has been going on. It will become apparent quickly when the unit is disassembled whether there are problems with hard parts. Break a leg on that endeavor.


Type F (or F/A) is what I've always used as a fluid for all the old Fords prior to the C6. Use what you want but that was the recommended fluid for metallic clutch applications.

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old FOMs & COMs have cast iron cases. They like to crack when folks get them stuck in the mud & start rocking them. I've replaced a few on the MX COMs. The clutches are metal plates. Steels & bronzes have to be replaced if burned or worn down. There will be metal in the pan if a lot of wear has been going on. It will become apparent quickly when the unit is disassembled whether there are problems with hard parts. Break a leg on that endeavor.


Type F (or F/A) is what I've always used as a fluid for all the old Fords prior to the C6. Use what you want but that was the recommended fluid for metallic clutch applications.

Really?

I did some research on that and saw many times it stated Type F isn't a replacement for Type A and that the friction modifiers of Type F would cause accelerated wear in the clutches.

Hmm if it wont hurt it then I might run that in this transmission after overhaul considering I already got a stash of Type F fluid for my 78 Mercury for that old FMX transmission.

Still waiting on a call back since this morning from the transmission shop we use at work. Guy that deals with our shop is busy on the other line with other customers told him its no rush. Just want a price estimate if this transmission needs to have the bands relined just so I know what to expect in a worse case situation.

Hopefully all it needs is just a simple rebuild as that would cost me around $800 with them pulling the transmission and come with a 2 year warranty.

[rotorwrench]

I learned so much from the experience of having other folks try to overhaul an MX Cruise-O-Matic for a 64 Thunderbird I used to have that I'm going to do my own from now on. The first guy botched the job and I found the case cracked & clutches burned. The second guy did a good job but forgot to remove the impeller from the rear pump on the good case I found. The unit was a later case from a pickup that the rear pump had been deleted on so there were no passage ways for fluid to travel in it. The guy knew it was a rear pump delete case but he just forgot about it. All the guy had to do was pull the tail shaft & remove the gear but that's how things go sometimes.

The hardest ones to find parts for are the 1st generation ones and especially the 1951 (1st-year). By 1955, FoMoCo was selling a lot of them so there are more out there. Folks will pull them and put some other power pack in there and they go to the junk yard. There is a guy that advertises in the V8 Times (EFV8 club magazine) for parts & services. David Edwards in Needham, MA indicates parts & services specifically for FOM. He states bands, pumps, & other parts are available. Google will find guys like Charlie Tranny that advertise parts but I've not purchased from any of these folks. Barnfind08 frequents the early V8 forum on here. Southside Obsolete is his business name and he has a lot of NOS obscure parts for old Fords but it's a good idea to have part numbers when you contact him. Some stuff is interchangeable between small case FX COM and the older FOM but a guy has to know what works and what doesn't. The FOM was around clear up to 1958 before the 2-speed aluminum case FOM came out for the Falcon/Comet cars.

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I learned so much from the experience of having other folks try to overhaul an MX Cruise-O-Matic for a 64 Thunderbird I used to have that I'm going to do my own from now on. The first guy botched the job and I found the case cracked & clutches burned. The second guy did a good job but forgot to remove the impeller from the rear pump on the good case I found. The unit was a later case from a pickup that the rear pump had been deleted on so there were no passage ways for fluid to travel in it. The guy knew it was a rear pump delete case but he just forgot about it. All the guy had to do was pull the tail shaft & remove the gear but that's how things go sometimes.

The hardest ones to find parts for are the 1st generation ones and especially the 1951 (1st-year). By 1955, FoMoCo was selling a lot of them so there are more out there. Folks will pull them and put some other power pack in there and they go to the junk yard. There is a guy that advertise in the V8 Times (EFV8 club magazine) for parts & services. David Edwards in Needham, MA indicates parts & services specifically for FOM. He states bands, pumps, & other parts are available. Google will find guys like Charlie Tranny that advertise parts but I've not purchased from any of these folks. Barnfind08 frequents the early V8 forum on here. Southside Obsolete is his business name and he has a lot of NOS obscure parts for old Fords but it's a good idea to have part numbers when you contact him. Some stuff is interchangeable between small case FX COM and the older FOM but a guy has to know what works and what doesn't. The FOM was around clear up to 1958 before the 2-speed aluminum case FOM came out for the Falcon/Comet cars.

Ive been in touch with Charlie recently hes retired now but his site is still up for informational purposes. Hes the one that told me to make sure to specific paper lined clutches so I can run Dexron/mercon transmission fluid.

So far I haven't heard anything about that from the shops, Jasper told me they are a stock rebuild with oem replacement parts so no upgraded clutches. That was the big reason I am making sure of this to make life easier on me vs trying to source Type A transmission fluid since amazon doesn't carry it anymore and I am down to a couple quarts left of the last two cases I bought.

As far as bands goes I will check them out that you mentioned that way maybe I can find a cheaper alternative than having mine relined if they do need to be replaced.

Mine is a 56 but its an air cooled unit that's original to the car. I got records for this car back to 1963 service wise and I only see transmission listed once on it and that was for a transmission service at 74,000ish miles.

[Gene F]

I wonder if the converter is bad. I know this is not a modeln car, but a modern automatic, with O/D converter...pull to the bottom of an exit ramp and stop, the car dies = bad converter. It is bad in that instance because it won't drop out of direct hookup. Therfore, it stalls the engine.

[rotorwrench]

The old air cooled converters can be disassembled and inspected for worn out stuff. They weren't welded yet like they are now.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old air cooled converters can be disassembled and inspected for worn out stuff. They weren't welded yet like they are now.

The trans shop that rebuilt my '55 FoM said something about a bad 'freewheel pawl' (???) in the torque converter, so they ordered & replaced the piece.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I wonder if the converter is bad. I know this is not a modeln car, but a modern automatic, with O/D converter...pull to the bottom of an exit ramp and stop, the car dies = bad converter. It is bad in that instance because It won't drop out of direct hookup. Therfore, it stalls the engine.

Nope, it's not the converter. This old Ford-O-Matic does not have a lockup converter. Further, most times a failure to unlock is merely a bad lockup solenoid, easily replaced by just pulling the pan. Yet, a lot of people have been ripped off by being sold an unnecessary overhaul.

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I wonder if the converter is bad. I know this is not a modeln car, but a modern automatic, with O/D converter...pull to the bottom of an exit ramp and stop, the car dies = bad converter. It is bad in that instance because it won't drop out of direct hookup. Therfore, it stalls the engine.

Yep that sounds like a bad lock up on the converter ive seen that before. Mine the engine stays running just falls out of gear like there is no 2nd gear. I did find that one guy up in MA that sells transmission parts he has the parts reasonably priced, front pump is $200 I am like that's not as bad as I was lead to believe when I was informed via third party that the hard parts are expensive. The bands I can get relined from him $80 for the front band plus $25 core, the rear band is $90 with $30 for the core. So if I replace the front band and the rebuild is $800 then I should walk out of there for $900 for a rebuild with the band replaced roughly.

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old air cooled converters can be disassembled and inspected for worn out stuff. They weren't welded yet like they are now.

Think all the converters were able to be taken apart as the back of the converter is part of the flywheel/ring gear. I will have to make sure they take mine apart clean it up and check it as well during the rebuild.

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The trans shop that rebuilt my '55 FoM said something about a bad 'freewheel pawl' (???) in the torque converter, so they ordered & replaced the piece.

I haven't taken mine in yet. I want to drive it a little this weekend and make note if I feel it going down into 2nd gear or not. But I planned on driving the car over to have the transmission done. Just awaiting for a price with the front band needing to be replaced from the transmission shop. Like to know what my cheaper option would be.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Rusty_S85

Ive been in touch with Charlie recently hes retired now but his site is still up for informational purposes. Hes the one that told me to make sure to specific paper lined clutches so I can run Dexron/mercon transmission fluid.

So far I haven't heard anything about that from the shops, Jasper told me they are a stock rebuild with oem replacement parts so no upgraded clutches. That was the big reason I am making sure of this to make life easier on me vs trying to source Type A transmission fluid since amazon doesn't carry it anymore and I am down to a couple quarts left of the last two cases I bought.

FYI- TYPE A fluid was replaced by DEXRON (in FORD vehicles) in 1961. There is no reason to beat yourself to death trying to source it. The reason he specified paper clutch material is you may come across some NOS parts that are asbestos and require TYPE F fluid.

TYPE F can be used in a DEXRON trans as it will give firmer shifts (B&M TRICK-SHIFT for example).

There is no way a shop can give you a specific price for overhaul until it is torn down on a forensics table. In addition, you might want to consider them pulling and re-installing so as all adjustments are made correctly and the warranty will be valid.

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

FYI- TYPE A fluid was replaced by DEXRON (in FORD vehicles) in 1961. There is no reason to beat yourself to death trying to source it. The reason he specified paper clutch material is you may come across some NOS parts that are asbestos and require TYPE F fluid.

TYPE F can be used in a DEXRON trans as it will give firmer shifts (B&M TRICK-SHIFT for example).

There is no way a shop can give you a specific price for overhaul until it is torn down on a forensics table. In addition, you might want to consider them pulling and re-installing so as all adjustments are made correctly and the warranty will be valid.

I am, they told me around $800 for a simple rebuild without hard parts.

I wont be pulling the transmission myself I will be driving the car over and let them do the work. Only thing I might do is I might mess with the adjustment on the transmission rod at the bellcrank if the thing doesn't shift in the proper speed range. Plus I need to idle the motor down as well as im currently at 550 rpm and range is 400 - 500 I just saw in my shop manual last night.

[scicala]

To me the 400 to 500 RPM idle spec is kind of crazy. Shoot for what feels comfortable.
Don't know if you could even get it to idle at 400 RPM. Just asking for stalls if you ask me.


Sal

[Daves55Sedan]

As far as trans fluid, I am using Dexron II in my '55 Ford-O-matic and it has the modern non-metallic clutch plates. It works like a dream. Dexron is the recommended replacement for type A.
As far as hard parts if needed, they are all very expensive. Last time I looked, probably bout 10 yrs ago, Northwest trans parts was selling FOM converter hub for over $100. I'd hate to see the price now. Be careful not to break off the dogs on that converter hub as those are what drives the front pump. But they did have replacement bands available back then if you need them.
The original bronze clutch plates are often re-useable having no noticeable wear. Ask the rebuilder to inspect, clean and re-install if you have a mind to. Although the modern clutch plates that come in the rebuild kits seem to have good longevity. Either way, no worries.
To my recollection, the only replacement parts you get for the converter in the premium rebuild kit is the converter hub o-ring seal, the flywheel-to-converter housing o-ring seal and the thrust washer (if even they are supplying that anymore). That thrust washer is one-way and if installed backwards won't work right. Make sure the mechanic records how the old one came out and install the new one same way.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Rusty_S85

Only thing I might do is I might mess with the adjustment on the transmission rod at the bellcrank if the thing doesn't shift in the proper speed range.

If being rebuilt at a reputable shop, all adjustments are made by them. If you have to fiddle with it, it may void the warranty.

[Rusty_S85]

Originally Posted by scicala

To me the 400 to 500 RPM idle spec is kind of crazy. Shoot for what feels comfortable.
Don't know if you could even get it to idle at 400 RPM. Just asking for stalls if you ask me.


Sal

I had it down to 400 idled on its own but it just had too much roughness in the idle I have it at 550 rpm which seems reasonable to me but I just have to wait I guess cause the thing is weird when I give it some throttle I have to feather the throttle with my foot as the car acts like its missing and loading up. Revs fine though in neutral though. Im kind of wondering if its the transmission causing that. But idle speed I think if I could knock another 50 rpm off and make it 500 even I think I would be real happy with that.

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

As far as trans fluid, I am using Dexron II in my '55 Ford-O-matic and it has the modern non-metallic clutch plates. It works like a dream. Dexron is the recommended replacement for type A.
As far as hard parts if needed, they are all very expensive. Last time I looked, probably bout 10 yrs ago, Northwest trans parts was selling FOM converter hub for over $100. I'd hate to see the price now. Be careful not to break off the dogs on that converter hub as those are what drives the front pump. But they did have replacement bands available back then if you need them.
The original bronze clutch plates are often re-useable having no noticeable wear. Ask the rebuilder to inspect, clean and re-install if you have a mind to. Although the modern clutch plates that come in the rebuild kits seem to have good longevity. Either way, no worries.
To my recollection, the only replacement parts you get for the converter in the premium rebuild kit is the converter hub o-ring seal, the flywheel-to-converter housing o-ring seal and the thrust washer (if even they are supplying that anymore). That thrust washer is one-way and if installed backwards won't work right. Make sure the mechanic records how the old one came out and install the new one same way.

The name provided further up he has all the parts I could think of, front bands $25 for core $80 for the band. Rear bands $30 for core $90 for the band. Front pump is $200 and rear pump I think was $180.

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

If being rebuilt at a reputable shop, all adjustments are made by them. If you have to fiddle with it, it may void the warranty.

Well I couldn't say if its reputable. They got 3.5 stars out of 5 with two reviews on google. There are also two complaints on BBB from 2016 as well.

This is the place though.

https://www.transmissionwholesalers.com/

Only other place I could check would be ABC Transmission I was told by a neighbor that they are good but Ive heard bad things about ABC. This is why I hate this because it seems like everyone has something bad to say about a transmission shop.