Houdaille Shock Problem

[Dirtrack49]

Went to replace a missing shock link on the front left after hitting a manhole cover. Found that my Houdaille shock would not move up or down. Too much resistance? Maybe I am too weak? Anyways, I needed to move the shock arm up a little ways so that I could put on the upper shock link. I thought that if I changed the needle setting to less resistance, I could get the shock to move. Well, that was a bad idea. the end of the needle broke off the shaft. Now I am evidently stuck with a needle set in a fixed position.
My questions are, can I replace the needle without taking the shock apart?
Should I be able to move the shock arm up and down without taking it off the car, or maybe something has gone wrong internal in the shock that made it seize in place?
Thanks for your help.
Tom L.

[Ranchero50]

Sounds like the problem wasn't the man hole so much as the suspension that couldn't flex. The shock shaft should rotate.

My one shock is frozen as well. I assume that's why it was left on the chassis...

[Dirtrack49]

Ranchero,
Do you know why your one shock is frozen?
That might possibly be what happened to my shock also.
This car is new to me. It was so called restored over a 14 year period. All the other shocks appear to be normal. The front left is what I first investigated after the manhole hit. Maybe the link had gone bye by before I bought the car. Maybe the shock is seized causing the link to take flight.
Anyone else got any idea? Much appreciated for your input.
Tom L.

[Ranchero50]

I assume the shaft rusted to the body. I tossed it onto the shelf to look at later. I'm missing the other three so I assume they worked and one of the PO's needed them for another project...

[rotorwrench]

Who Die shocks should have no more resistance to movement that a regular piston type shock and likely somewhat less. It sounds like you need to find a shock rebuilder and hope that it's salvageable. Removing broken threaded parts is always difficult but with the right resources, it can be done. If the wing shaft & housing are bad then it's not worth the trouble of going any further.

[Kurt in NJ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Steady pressure on the arm should slowly move it, easier moving up than down---- and being seized could be why the link is off

[Dirtrack49]

Thanks for everyone's input so far.
I am now thinking that this shock might be an aftermarket item.
I thought that the original Houdaille shocks had either a needle valve pointer for adjustment for 1928, or a square with an adjustment screw in the center of the square for later models. This shock has neither.
Should it matter what I use for a replacement shock? Do they necessarily need to be all the same? The front right shock appears to be a 1928 with the pointer needle valve.
Thanks again,
Tom L.

[Kurt in NJ]

The 32 shock had a cover over the adjustment, it was the later replacement listed in parts book

[Dirtrack49]

Went into town to take a closer look at the front left shock. After removing it from the car, I opened up the fill hole and found that there was no glycerin or oil in the chamber. The only thing I can see in the chamber is rust. So I am assuming that since this car was restored over a 14 year period, the front left shock must have lost it's fluid and ended up rusting. Or, it was no good to begin with.
Now, the question is what to do next? Do I try to take the shock apart and see if it can still be used? Soak it in something to see if it will free up? Send it out for rebuild? Buy a new aftermarket shock?
Below is a picture of my right front shock. If you look close, you can see that the needle adjustment has a pointer on it, yet no number references. Three of the shocks are the same.
The picture of the left front shock has the needle adjustment broken off. It is also marked Houdaille with the exception that it had a square adjuster on the end prior to me breaking it off.
Any and all suggestions much appreciated.
Tom L.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

I had my shocks rebuilt by John Holland. I highly recommend him.
Is willing to talk to you and answer questions, very nice guy.
John Holland (330-483-3896) (Ohio) phone only, no email, no text

[Dirtrack49]

Okay, after some reading, there are several if not many versions of shocks that were produced by many companies.
Now, I am thinking, that maybe any shock that is reproduced, verses no shock, may be the answer?
Should I just replace the bad shock with anything available, or replace all of them with a known matching shock set from a well known manufacturer?
If replacing all of them vs. one, who should I look at?
Thanks again,
Tom L.

[Ranchero50]

Put a mix of ATF and acetone in the rusty shock and allow it to brew for a couple days. Might break it free.

[Dan Partain]

I don't want to open up a new can of worms here, but it looks like your brake lever, actuating arm, is either on backwards, or on the wrong side of the front end. This can cause your brake rods to rub on the shock adjusting valve. Also, maybe it's the angle of the photo, but it kind of looks like your shock arm may also be bent in toward the frame. The shock link looks like it has an odd angle. Just a "heads up," maybe take a closer look.

[Dirtrack49]

Dan, thanks for the heads up. Below is a picture of my left side brake arm with the tubular shock link missing. Should this brake arm be on the right side? The two arms are different.
I will need to go take another look at the shock link and arm on the right side and take another picture.

This is kind of getting out of control with so many things that I have found wrong so far on a so called restored vehicle. This car was the PO's third restoration. Makes me wonder.
Tom L.

[rotorwrench]

Some folks get the restoration publications and study the manuals & bulletins available to get things correct to their needs. Others take things apart for repair then put them back together the same way they came off. They don't take into account how previous owners might have gotten things wrong. It's been a lot of water and hard years under the bridge since the model A era. I've seen all sorts of shade tree changes over the years. The first model A I purchased had no shocks at all.

[Dan Partain]

Tom,
Your driver side lever looks fine, it's the pre 1930 style and will work fine no matter what year your car is. Your passenger side is the post 1930 style and it's on backwards or the wrong side, I don't know which. You could just find one like the one on the drivers side and change it. I would call Steve at Berts and I'm sure he has boxes of the parts you need, and good advice too.

Compare the shape of your shock arms, it looks like the one on the drivers side is the correct shape. The passenger side arm looks bent, you can bend the shock arm back to it's original curve by matching the other side.
-DAN

[Dirtrack49]

Rotorwrench, you are so right. I just need to take another step back and go over this car with a fine tooth comb. I've worked on bikes and cars that were older, and yes, things get turned around with time.
Dan, from what I see in the shop manual, the two fork arms are reversed? The offset fork goes on the drivers side.
I know that many things on this car are from other years. The engine is a 1929. The car is a 1930. The other three shocks appear to be 1928.
Maybe I should start thinking about dismantling some of this car and start from ground zero.
Tom L.

[Dan Partain]

Tom,
The shape of those levers was changed for 1930, so you have both the early style and the late style on your car. Here are some photos of both styles. 30 style on the left, and 29 style on the right.


It may be easiest to just buy the correct year assemblies and install them when you have time.
If your car is running and driving, I wouldn't tear it apart, just drive it, enjoy it, and fix the little things that need help as you have time.
-DAN

[30 Closed Cab PU]

If you go with new shocks, Stipes Shocks are the best original looking style - Expensive but are extremely high quality. If you do not mind converting to a tubular shock, try doing a search here, there are a few possibilities.

[rotorwrench]

I'm in agreement on the idea of continued use of a car as long as it's capable. Get everything you can right before a tear down for cosmetics and corrosion control. If it needs front end work, just do that in a couple of weekends and so on with each subassembly of the car. They can be a lot of fun even when they aren't 100%. When you tear one down, it should be as quick a job as possible so that you can get back to driving it. In other words prepare for it so it can be expedited. A parts pile in the garage is no fun at all.

Cars that are totally ragged out are another thing but it all depends on overall condition.

[alexiskai]

One thing I found helpful was to keep a list on my phone of all the projects or repairs that I wanted to do, and then I moved items around on the list to group and prioritize them. This helped me think through all the changes I wanted to make related to a particular assembly so that I could do my research, buy parts, keep my budget under control, etc. It also forced me to think through which projects were really the most important and which were, e.g., mostly cosmetic.

Also if a post comes up on Fordbarn that relates to a future project, I'll copy the number of the post (e.g., "#20") and paste it into the list because it works as a link to that post that I can trace back when I'm ready to tackle that project.

[Dirtrack49]

Okay,
I think I will get myself an aftermarket shock from Snyders for the bad one on the drivers front. May not match, but may make the car more functional.
If there is no interference with the brake rods, I will probably forgo changing the brake arm forks to a latter date. Thanks for the heads up Dan on the model year changes.
Ranchero50, I am going to soak the frozen shock and see if it will free up. Thanks for the tip.
And to everyone else who gave me their tips and info, thanks for helping me learn more about these cars.
When I get this resolved, I will report back with the results.
Tom L.

[ETAModel]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was wondering what kind of oil do you put in your shocks? The Manual says use Shock absorber oil, but if i cant find any what would do as a substitute?
Thanks

[rotorwrench]

There were several types and the internal seals can play a part there. The fill plug shapes identified the fluid on some. Glycerin and castor oil were both used back in the day. If you purchase a repro, find out what the manufacturer recommends. Modern hydraulic oils have a lot of different viscosity ratings.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Thought I read somewhere on FB the Snyders tube shocks were stiff, especially on the front. Besides, so the two sides match performance replace both fronts at the same time?

[alexiskai]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I think he meant he was going to buy an aftermarket hydraulic shock from Snyder's

[Dirtrack49]

Closed Cab, I was going to replace the front drivers shock with a reproduction original shock, not a tube shock.
I have read that people have used just about anything in their shocks over the years. From hydralic jack fluid, 30w oil, 90w gear oil, and STP. I guess as long as there is something in there, it is better than nothing. Some of the repro's don't have you add any oil at all. Really confusing.
Now I am thinking about replacing all of the shocks. If the drivers front was toast, the rest of them are probably close behind.
Can anyone tell me how I can identify if I have a real Houdaille shock verses a reproduction? Is there some identifying mark on an original?
Tom L.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Here is a basic guide on genuine shocks.


http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/shockidentification.htm


If they have "Chicago" marked on them they are aftermarket. This is all I know, there may be other similar looking aftermarket shocks.

[rotorwrench]

The Chicago marked repros have a brass body casting. They were made quite a while ago and folks have had both good and bad results with them. There are threads on this board about them.

[Dirtrack49]

Went and took a look again at all of the shocks. It now appears that the front right is on its way out too. Found all of the shocks to have no fluid in them.
Most likely they are all bad and I need to acquire a complete set.
Anyone know if I can still buy Stipe shocks? Or, should I give John Holland a call? Would these two choices be the best way to go? Or are some of the sealed repro shocks that do not take any oil be okay?
Dan, here is a picture of the front right tube link. Does this look normal? I confirmed that the brake fork is on backwards and the brake rod barely clears the shock needle valve.
Tom L.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Give John a call. a lot of times the shocks are bad enough where they are not rebuildable. When I had mine rebuilt by him, had to ship him eight shocks to get 4 good ones. I had extras that were in a box of stuff I inherited from my father. He will let you know whatever you want to know. There is also a chance that once you ship him your shocks, if he thinks they may be rebuildable via a phone call, they might not be rebuildable once he gets them and opens them up.


He stands by his work, according to him he has never had one returned. I am extremely happy with the ones I have, saved me a ton of money by getting them rebuilt over buying Stipes.


Sometimes Stipes are on long backorder. I do not know the quality of the Snyders, I believe some have had good luck, some have had bad. No one has complained about the Stipes, except for cost. I have no personal experience or personally know of anyone using the Snyders.

[alexiskai]

The main problem with having the shocks rebuilt, as 30CCPU says, is that the failure rate is high, 50% or higher. You need to have been collecting shocks for a while in order to send enough to get four functional shocks back. If you just send the ones on the car, odds are you'll get 1 or 2 back and still be in the quandary you started in.

[Ruth]

I went with Stipe Shocks and had to wait ~6 months to receive them. But I am glad I waited. No problems for the last 4½ years. I noticed they are back ordered now. (again) https://www.specialtymotorcams.com/d...shockabsorbers

I believe that the Stipe Shocks are the only 'new' shocks available that are rebuildable. That is a big plus for me as the other shocks available are not rebuildable but cost almost as much.

[rotorwrench]

Stipes parts are all machined steel so they are very good quality but you pay for that. Volume 2 of the MARC restoration book series has a very good run down on rebuilding the shocks. The folks that do this work have likley made their own tools to work on these units. Removing the cover with a pipe wrench is going to leave marks. The body and the rotating wing shaft parts were a very close fit and final fitting was a lap fit on a lot of them so any damage like corrosion can make for internal leakage between these parts. This is why the failure rate is high. The Stipe shocks are made by a man with experience in cam grinding and likely a lot of other machining specialties so his are likely a pretty good fit between the affected parts. The other reproductions just depend on the equipment and knowledge of those that are doing the machining and assembly.

For years, the Bell 47 helicopters used Houdaille rotating dampers on their main rotor stabilizer bar control system. We would hang a specific size weight on the arm and time how long it took for the weight to cycle the damper from the full up position to the full down position. They had a adjustable control needle valve similar to the old auto dampers to set the cycle speed to the correct value. Houdaille likely did the same thing back in the day. They set them for right and left but is hard to tell whether you have a right or a left on an old model A unless you take them apart and see where the valving was set. They could tell back then by the way the arms were installed. Now days you don't know on and old crusty antique.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

They set them for right and left but is hard to tell whether you have a right or a left on an old model A unless you take them apart and see where the valving was set. They could tell back then by the way the arms were installed. Now days you don't know on and old crusty antique.

It should be relatively easy to tell since the arms only go on one way, shouldn't it?

[Dan Partain]

Tom,
Yes, that arm and link look fine, the camera angle on the earlier photo made it look like it was bent. Other than that, as you say, only the lever is wrong.
-DAN

[Dirtrack49]

Thanks everyone for all of your help. Looks like I will be calling Stipe and John Holland tomorrow and find out what I can do about either a new set, or rebuilds. If that goes nowhere, I will most likely have to decide on what's available from the other vendors.
Now I am wondering about the entire suspension in the front. I took a look at the position of the front axle in comparison to my front apron, and the axle is at about the same level or slightly higher than the apron. Thinking I might need a new spring also. Who knows, if I get to taking everything apart what I will eventually find. So much for the fully restored A. Well I have to admit, the paint and interior look great. Lots of nice black paint on some old parts too.
Tom L.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

It should be relatively easy to tell since the arms only go on one way, shouldn't it?

That is if no one has ever messed with them before and mixed & matched parts. Some were marked but Houde Engineering wasn't the only manufacture of them. Right front works for left rear etc but its been a lot of water under the bridge.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Dirtrack49

I took a look at the position of the front axle in comparison to my front apron, and the axle is at about the same level or slightly higher than the apron. Thinking I might need a new spring also.

Rule of thumb is that, assuming the shackles are properly greased, the clearance between the bottom of the front spring shackles and the top of the front axle should be at least 1/4". This provides enough clearance that, in normal operation, the shackles won't contact the axle. If it's less than 1/4" then the spring may be worn out. If the shackles are resting on the axle then they're definitely worn out.

[Kevin in NJ]

Some shock notes from taking a bunch apart.

Generally if you see rust in the chamber through the fill hole the shock is bad. All the ones with rust in the chamber had pitting in the wing area.

So the shock works by having really tight machining between the body and the wing. It is unlikely that you can get them to interchange. Honestly it is surprising the number of internal variations.

So any with play at the shaft are bad. You will need to do extensive work to save it. End of story.

It takes some work to get them apart. I tap around the cover, expanding it, to break it free. I use heat to burn away the rubber seal. I made a tool to grab the cover. The inner nut is an odd size. I bought a deep impact socket and borrowed a 3/4" air impact and put it in my 200lb vice. A couple did not free up and I did a couple of heat and drop in water cycles. I did not heat it up red. To get the fragile valve out I did heat the end of the shaft. Mostly to burn out the packing and do some heat cycles. Unless it was a bad wing then I heated the crap out of it as the valve is the hard part to save.

Once apart you can see how much play you have. If you have any pitting then the shock is not going to work, it is done. If you have nice chambers then you have to look at the play in the wing to sides. In good ones they are really tight, good luck on finding ones that good. What I have found is nice chambers and a bit of looseness (couple of thou maybe) will work but you are going to have to experiment with thicker oils.

So a few years ago I got the weight and dimensions of the KRW testing tool. I had been told that good shock is really stiff. That is when you put the original arm on the shock and close the valve it should be really hard one way and a bit looser the other way. I have done a few shocks to that standard ages ago and the cars handled great.
So I was going through my shocks and had some that were that good. I made up a loose copy of the KRW tool. I forget the time but in the Service Bulletins they list the times. Like 15 seconds to do an arc of so many degrees. Well the good shock took only like 5 seconds. So the real standard is much higher then what you might think.

Oil, yes oil. Ford changed to oil for the shocks and this was reprinted into one of the national magazines way back. I have scan of the article some place. So when I used what is close to a factory oil some shocks that were fairly tight had very little resistance. A guy a work had some thicker motorcycle shock oil and I tried that and it made some difference but not enough. At some point I need to revisit the who oil thing but I have to buy some thicker oils.
My hypothesis is that you need to have more than one viscosity shock oil. Each shock will need a oil the allows the best time for the play in the wing. From what I can see there might be a wide variation for sub thou differences. I have a nice selection of fairly tight shocks and they each were giving much different times for the same oil.

So does anyone know which rubber seals work on original shocks? That is another problem as the ones I had laying around were not doing so good.

[rotorwrench]

I can't help much with the original seal materials but I do know a lot more about modern seal materials. From most of the info I've seen about the Hoo-Dye shocks, they have a large round seal to fit the screw on reservoir cap to body joint but I don't know if it is a round cross section like and O-ring or not. If it is an o-ring then a person may be able size it to existing aerospace type o-rings from Parker Hannafin. The smaller seal between the outer cover and the inner cover appears to be flat cross section with an inside and outside diameter to fit the angled recess there. They could likely be fabricated from rubber sheet if the person knows the thickness and what size to cut them to. The little one on the valve is a mystery to me since it isn't well illustrated on the diagrams I've seen. The shocks were throw away items back in that era so they were never planning on ever selling a rebuild kit.

The Gold Coast Model A Restorers Club has some interesting ideas about salvaging some not so badly rusted units but it sounds like it would not only be a good bit of work but also some triumph and some tragedy in trying this method. It's interesting though.
http://www.goldcoastmodela.com/Shocks/hreb.html