Need help at Macungie P.A. Meet.

[peters180a/170b]

Dave , Dave ,Dave... Do Pete's post do anything to encourage other's? Just passing information on Fine point judging [the high's and the LOW'S]. It is my intention in my post to off set the damage Pete's negativity had done.. Hummmmm let me think ? Dave, the DAMAGE has been going on for YEARS with the nick picking judging. Back even before the Mass, MAFCA meet where they had to drag cars from tour class to make it look good on how many cars came out to be judged in fine point judging!! Hello i was there... 1 car did not even have a set of tools to show[ a fordor].Damage ,was started a long time ago... THESE "SELF STYLED EXPERTS HOLD THE HOBBY HOSTAGE.That came from a man with double the years you have in both clubs and in the front row of things. And still waiting for my questions to be answered... Stop the tango ...I was asked twice now to judge the MARC meet in 2011 ??? Only if you get to judge touring class...

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Dave, the DAMAGE has been going on for YEARS with the nick picking judging.

Pete,
What exactly do you think MARC/MAFCA judging and judging standards is?
It is all about authenticity and attention to detail, which you obviously adhered to at a very high level to make your achievement, so why do you also refer to it in a negative manner as "nick-picking"?

That 'nick-picking judging' is exactly what distinguished your car from the others, got you a Henry, and prevented another 15 guys behind you from also getting a Henry.

You think they have no questions about their own score sheets?
Or that their scores were spot-on, but you got pimped?

I imagine there might be some people behind you in fine point who also might feel there were some improper calls made on their cars, and who might even feel they missed out on a Henry unjustly.
I don't hear them complaining about everything here on fordbarn.

I have no doubt that all the fine point cars were exceptional in their own right, so maybe we should just dumb down the standards and judging, and award full points to everyone for repro parts and shiny paint and issue people's choice awards like the cruise night at the local Big Boy Restaurants.

For that matter, we could just award ribbons and Henrys based on how much money was spent on a restoration, or spent on a quail, or on a fan belt, or which name-brand guru did the paint, or upholstery, or plating, or tire valve hardware, or wood graining, or spark plugs, or.....

[1931 flamingo]

Pete: I sure hope you score as high on aug 7th as you did at the show that has created 6 pages (screens) of whining. JMO
Paul in CT

[PDXCougfan]

As an outsider looking in (and someone new to this hobby) I have two observations.

1) Both sides are being a little too defensive. Calling someone a whiner (very defensive) probably didnt help anything, and really made me think if i wanted to have my roadster pickup judged next fall. I didnt take his first post as a whine at all.. just trying to find out where he went wrong after alot of work. It went downhill from there.

2) From my opinion, as long as the judging was uniform across the entire event... it doesnt really matter what the score is as the cars are being judged to the same standards. If they take 1/2 points for repro's.... as long as its the same across all cars... it should be fine.

3) Everyone needs to grab a beer from the fridge and toast one.
Just my humble opinion looking in.

[peters180a/170b]

1931 flamingo, No scoring on Aug. 7 [its a get together fun meet].Unless i am wrong? I am going with the 180A better off sitting with a bunch of Model" A" guy's with their cars and shooting the stories ,,then looking at the car home.Is that whats it's all about [car meetings and friends].? Been doing it back since 1976 at this meet. AND since no answer from the west side of the world on my questions i hope help will be at this meet.

[peters180a/170b]

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To Forever4 , {"NICK PICKING"] to me is putting down on a judging sheet the front fenders serrations are "NOT DEEP ENOUGH". [[they are there and you can feel them on perfect fenders w/ 1 front fender well ]] or there is a" DROP OF OIL ON 1 SHOCK" "O" my God the world is coming to a end. "A" DROP".[how big was this DROP?its still there! And the front hood top rivet on hinge TOO MUCH PAINT ,..Thats what i call nick picking [looking for anything to take off. ]Like i have been saying [When i am a team captain i tell my team to take a walk around the car and view the whole car first and see how much time and work went into the WHOLE car. That nick picking adds up at the end and can knock someone out of the box with a very nice car over all..And i am "NOT just speaking for myself! P.S ,,there will be a deluxe roadster that was at the French Lick with a few complaining calls too to follow.A mint ORGINIAL restored dash light marked as a [REPRO] and lost points on Top and seats.. Just pulled it out from you know who's shop. Someone just did not like his work on 2 -180A's and 2- 68C's and Deluxe Roadster .But at least it was across the board!

[Fred]

Pete, RESTORE A CHEVY !!!...

[peters180a/170b]

Only if it's a 1932 Model ! FRED >>>> Last week on someones front lawn a 1932 PLYMONTH PB roadster , looks like it was restored maybe early 70's. Solid body , very nice chassis ,wheels and hub caps super , need come chrome redone and some paint cracking near rumble. $38,000 or best offer. A very nice looking car. think it has 65 horse power?

[Fred]

Oh, I know, You can`t find one of them either !!..

[Fred]

You mean you did not check for A good original fan belt & original valve stem covers ??

[peters180a/170b]

That type of Judging "ONLY" on Model "A" Fords. ! I spoke to Robert G. last nite [owner of a 1931 Deluxe Roadster] judged at the French Lick. Boy, not only on a MINT Orginial restored dash light judged as a repro [i should know Doug B. had 6 done at 1 time and i sent out the plating on them to Pauls Chrome] and 1 is on my car too. His top got destroyed on points. Everyone go docked on rugs too,.He re-did his wheels and was marked Over Restored [Someone out there has no idea working with the new paints,,,they flow nice and less work ] The weld marks were there on all wheels.Sounds to me a witch hunt took place ,As 1 judge put it [Its time do redue the standards in some area] And that might have something to do with the poor attendance in FINE POINT JUDGING. I know its far back but for those who have The Restorer Mag.Sept. / Oct. 1988 Please look at the group of winners[a nice size of Happy Guy's]. When the New Standards were set the decline in cars started .1 car set the bar and not even Bill S. as long as his tops were the Best ,that 1 car set the bar. Bill S. said, i don't know how he got the trim that thin and on the top but i can not do it. So everyone who follows with a great restoration on a car gets destroyed by a very small group of judges.Think he said out west somewhere? rugs too! but they do it across the board. EVERYONE from now till the cows come home.That's another reason why both clubs will never get together in peace. In our life time. And that's sad for the members who belong to both clubs as i do.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Pete, I have re-read this entire thread on several different days now just trying to re-analyze what all is being said. What I am not sure of is whether you really are mad, --or whether the way you write just makes it appear that way however let me offer perspective from a different point of view.

I'm sure it is no secret that my shop restored 4 cars that were in fine-point judging at that show, so I have pretty thorough knowledge of the quality on all four of those vehicles. IMO there were some mistakes made in the judging on all four vehicles. The truck we did that won the Ray Mathews award was incorrectly scored as having a powdercoated frame. The top that was done by Bill Sturm also received what I deemed as a hefty deduction for poor workmanship. There were some other areas that were hit that I feel errors were made but the owner & I have discussed those and we know what reality is. On a Roadster that I had in the show, they determined the color of the engine was incorrect however it is the exact same paint (color & mix) that we used on the other 3 vehicles in the show of which there were no deductions. On yet another vehicle, the team determined the frame was twisted and wrote that on the sheet yet the car owner was here and assisted us when the frame was initially straightened and re-rivited. He knows the frame is not twisted. And, we too were gigged for having some repro parts that were actually restored original parts. I say all of this to help you understand that the process did not solely single you out!

As I have spoken with each of my customers regarding how they felt about the overall outcome (mistakes & all), all four of my customers appear to have the opinion they are pleased with the outcome (as am I) and all of us feel it was an honor to even be a part of the process. Basically the actual "score number" was moot to each of them because they are looking at the overall picture and their priorities are different because to them, their vehicle is the true prize. With THAT mindset, let's look at the overall picture as I feel it pertains to you and your car.

1) You restored a car exactly how you wanted to build it.

2) You, under your own free will, chose to enter it in a format at an event and agreed to have it critiqued or evaluated where there was no prize money or financial compensation at stake. In other words, ...for fun only.

3) A group of your peers (fellow hobbyist) who are non-paid volunteers came together at each of their own expense to offer their evaluation on your car. In other words, ...giving you something for free.

So, in a nutshell, these non-professional, non-paid individuals (judges) worked diligently preparing and offering you free advise and their 'solicited-by-you' opinion on what they felt you should do to make your car a little bit better. If these were professional consultants for which you were financially compensating them for their time and earned knowledge, then maybe you might have a valid reason to be upset with them if they made a mistake? If you don't feel like their opinion is valid, then don't heed their advise, ...pure & simple! Many of us are viewing their efforts differently and thus I choose to appreciate all their time and efforts, ...and while I realize there were some mistakes made, I/we now can take their opinions and if we choose to do so, we can make appropriate corrections to the areas which there were problems to make the vehicle more accurate. Just like the free advise given here on Fordbarn, some of it may be in error, or different in what we perceive as being correct yet we generally do not get upset and slander the individual(s) that meant no harm when they offered their opinion for free on how to fix something. Pete, am I wrong or off-base in suggesting you do the same?

.

[30Tudor]

Very interesting and heated discussion. For one it has convinced me that I never ever want to get involved with fine point judging as it seems to be highly contraversial and just not a fun thing.

The following comment definately is not speaking specifically to the particular situation being discussed here but say say we use judging figure skating or a dance competition as a great example. I'm wondering a what point a judge(s) would get so frustrated with the ridicule from a particular participant on the judging process and discrediting their competence as a judge that they would eventually just decide to opt out of any judging related to that participant? In athletics, I believe a participant sanction would likely apply due to poor sportsmanship.

[msmaron]

Very very very well said Brent..I commend you for this great comment you have written.

30 Tudor.. DO NOT loose focus of what this hobby is all about...FUN FUN FUN and you are allowing 1 person and their opinion to dissuade you from a great part of it.. Fine Point Judging, BEFORE you make a hastily decision on not wanting to get involved, I implore you TOO GET INVOLVED by Judging and learning the judging process and what is involved and the learning process of this great hobby. I am sure you will then agree that Fine Point judging, the hunt, the work and the education are well worth the time and the effort you put forth. Many of us,,,, very very many of us are here to help you reach your goal and work with you. Though it may not be perfect it is part of our great hobby. I look forward to seeing you at San Diego and in the judging pool

Best of luck to you

[RockHillWill]

The taller the ladder the more spectacular the view. It seems inappropritae to ask folks to shorten the ladder just so you might be able to tell folks you reached the top. If you are afraid of heights stay on the ground, but don't fault those with the courage to climb and those who hold the ladder firmly. Just a thought!

[forever4]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

The taller the ladder the more spectacular the view. It seems inappropritae to ask folks to shorten the ladder just so you might be able to tell folks you reached the top. If you are afraid of heights stay on the ground, but don't fault those with the courage to climb and those who hold the ladder firmly. Just a thought!

I generally don't don't like to add "me too" posts, but I gotta say, Will, you said it exactly right. Perfect summary!

[Timothy Kelly]

Will:

I've been looking for one of those tall ladders...but haven't been able to locate one that's just right. Have you any suggestions as to where I might find for such a thing?

Cheers



Timothy

ps - I measured my fuel line and find that it's about 70 feet short; I could probably use some help in this area as well

[peters180a/170b]

The tallest ladder i have is 40 feet. Mr.Will let me ask you something.. You have worked with Bill Sturm on your pickup [right] .? Why? He's the "BEST" and knows this stuff[right] 40 years in the business and one would saying if you want to win a Henry award you need Bills work to get there. I see you at Hershey with Bill Sturm going over you next restoration ["A" truck] ,notes ,bluepeints ,and all ..Why? HE knows his stuff and he is the "BEST" to do the job/ [right?] .I found out the hard way with many trips back and forth to Bills shop. My car in no way was going to leave his shop unless it was finished by him and he was Happy with his job .Now Knowing Bill and the work he has done all these years ,time and time again most if not all cars that win the Henry the top and Upholstery was done by Bill.[maybe 4 or 5] did not. Over how many cars?? So for one to say [poor workmanship or top is not radius on a roadster -Robert G.[which Bill said nothing was wrong with that top!] material which is "NOT AVAILABLE" "NON ACCESSIBLE" NON OBTAINABLE" will lose points or % because of wrong material was used -but Bill used the closest material available . And has passed years now for MARC/MAFCA meets before -now all of a sudden ["5"] ,FIVE ,"V" open cars in one meet which Bill Sturm did the work- with a year or less of a full restoration that ALL cars have a problem?? Would you ask yourself IS IT BILL STURM or the Judges??? Working with Bill for 6 months on my car alone i'll put my money on Bill!!! And i think you would too!

[peters180a/170b]

Now for Brent , I JUDGE not MARC/MAFCA but A.A.C.A. .. They have more then 1 meet per year. I have judged 2 or 3 time per year in the past[sometimes]. I JUDGE FOR FREE ! It cost me $$$$. And i JUDGE FOR FREE. Judges breakfast cost is $7.00 and you must attend. Gas to get to and from ,tolls,time off work,food,Hotel, and i do it because i ENJOY IT!. And you do pay membership dues too. If you restore a car that took you 7 years to do from every nut ,bolt, washer ,cotter pin ,,you will know more about YOUR car then the judges that are judging your car. At least most of them! So for some judges to tell you- you have certain parts that are repro [which are not-dash light on one car and some parts on my rear fenders?] or a incorrect wire code or a tiny drip on a shock and or too much paint on a rivet head. I think you would have questions on who is judging your car after all that time you spent on it. Should they? EVEN FOR FREE? You know what they say about FREE Advise ...You think i am doing this for myself? I am not one to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!. Just because i won the Henry! There's more then me. Its i got the grommets to say something about it. And for years you here there's a thing with 1 group of judges and another group E/W [you know a tit for tat thing] You pick on one of our cars and will get even at another meet. Mean while some of us get caught in the middle [like a ping pong ball] and pay a price.Some day you have time call me and i'll spell it out for ya, names and all... I will not post that crap here on Fordbarn. Happy Birthday Henry [see what you started] l.o.l.

[Fred]

Pete; Like it has been said here before, "MANY TIMES OVER" If you don`t like the way the corrent judges are doing it, GET INVOLVED & start judging @ NATIONAL MARC & MAFCA MEETS.. Doing AACA does not mean a thing..