The First Modern Production Ford Motor

[trulyvintage]

Before the Model T ...

Ford Motor Company’s first modern production
four cylinder motor














Jim

[trulyvintage]

Jim

[Will N]

Model B. Not only the first production Ford 4, but the first with a torque tube/drive shaft and rear radius rods. Set the pattern for the Model T.

[40 Deluxe]

That exhaust manifold is a work of art!

[JoeBauer]

Where's the water pump?

[Will N]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

On the Model B, the water pump is down low on the front of the engine, driven directly by the camshaft.

[dropacent]

Except Ford didn’t make it. They bought it from an outside supplier.

[Will N]

Originally Posted by dropacent

Except Ford didn’t make it. They bought it from an outside supplier.

It's true that Ford contracted with outside suppliers for most of the parts. Dodge Brothers was a respected foundry and machine shop, and they built the engines, frames and transmissions. But these were built to a Ford design, and the cars were assembled by Ford. The Dodge brothers were a partner in the Ford Motor Company, so you might say it was kind of built in house. It wasn't until the models N, R and S of 1906 and 1907 that Ford actually built the engine and frame in house.

[dropacent]

Just correcting the misinformation that the B model was the first production Ford auto. It wasn’t. Ford was an assembler then, just like hundreds of other companies. They were smart enough to figure out what didn’t work, and build on the success of the model N, then hit a grand slam with the model T.

[trulyvintage]

The 1904 Ford Model B was the first modern production engine
for Ford Motor Company.

The 1904 Ford Model B was the second production vehicle
for Ford Motor Company.

Dodge Brothers were contracted to build the first (650) Model A
Complete Running Chassis ( less wheels - tires - body - tonneau )
for $250 for Ford Motor Company.

Research is ongoing as to who designed - engineered - manufactured
the 1904 Ford Model B Prototype that was test driven on August 6th, 1904.

No one alive has ever had the opportunity to interpret an original
largely complete 1904 Ford Model B as it left The Piquette Plant
with the original chassis - suspension - drive train - engine - transmission.

I " discovered " serial number 51-52-55 in April of 2018.

I initiated the process that led to a recently completed (19) month
minimal sympathetic restoration to get the car running and driving.

I documented the ongoing process with images and video.

I was one of three people present when all four cylinders
caught and ran for the first time in anyone's living memory.

I was fortunate to video that historic moment.

I have been researching the history of The 1904 Ford Model B
and the remarkable journey of " Alexander " since April of 2018.

I negotiated a limited agreement to have the car displayed at the
Early Ford V-8 Museum in Auburn, Indiana.

I have transported the car over 4000 miles.

Personally - I am tired of " armchair experts " attempting
to influence history with personal opinions.

The 1904 Ford Model B Serial # 51-52-55 is the only acknowledged
largely original example that runs and drives.

The first museum visitors to view " Alexander " on July 25th, 2020
moments after he entered the museum before barricades were placed





Jim

[pj's junkers]

Question this was a Ford design? Was this engine used by other manufacturers like a continental or only used by Ford? If only Ford then it is only FORD. To say it is not Ford then the Model A's with Briggs and Murry bodies are not Ford. Think about how things were done then. not much different now by parts suppliers

[Will N]

Originally Posted by dropacent

Just correcting the misinformation that the B model was the first production Ford auto. It wasn’t. Ford was an assembler then, just like hundreds of other companies. They were smart enough to figure out what didn’t work, and build on the success of the model N, then hit a grand slam with the model T.

Actually, the post that started this thread said that the model B was the first FOUR CYLINDER production motor, which is in fact true, and not misinformation. Ford's first production car was the Model A, which was a two cylinder motor.

[Will N]

Originally Posted by pj's junkers

Question this was a Ford design? Was this engine used by other manufacturers like a continental or only used by Ford? If only Ford then it is only FORD. To say it is not Ford then the Model A's with Briggs and Murry bodies are not Ford. Think about how things were done then. not much different now by parts suppliers

It was a Ford design that was used only by Ford.

[rotorwrench]

The Piquette avenue plant was the first of the purpose built Ford assembly plants that didn't get "taken over" by investors as did the first Ford plant that became the Cadillac Motor Company plant. The Mack avenue plant was a wagon manufacturing building that was converted for use for Ford's manufacturing. There was also a separate machine shop that came later at Bellevue avenue.

You can look at the history of these early Ford facilities and pretty much tell what they could manufacture in house and what they could not. The Ford Motor Company didn't have a real foundry until they built the Highland Park plant and that was in late 1909 & early 1910. About the only things cast at the Piquette road plant were smaller brass items.

The Dodge brothers figured largely in the early operation due to their own manufacturing capability at the time but make no mistake, they were not in the business to become a major part of the Ford Motor company. They made parts for several other companies as well. They were always moving toward their own automobile company but stayed with the Ford enterprise as long as it was a way to gain the upper ground on their own interests. Malcomson, the Dodge brothers, and a few of the other investors were more interested in producing the larger more expensive Model B & K cars than they were the little model N & S cars. The model B car didn't stay in production very long and was basically replaced by the Model K. The cars were heavier than anything else they were making and this caused drive train problems with the transmissions. I don't think Henry Ford was wanting to go the big car way since sales were fewer and farther between. Charles Sorensen mentioned some of this in his book. Henry didn't have total control of the company yet so the Dodge brothers were likely involved in the design of the large cars in this time frame. John Dodge was even vice president of the company for a time in those early years. Henry had to be secretive about the model T development and this may be a large part of the reason he had the Hungarians working on it. They used chalkboards for design for several reasons and the most important was security.

[trulyvintage]

I just got off an hour plus long conference call with a research intern
who has been assigned to Alexander.

The primary purpose of resurrecting Alexander is to tell the
true history of The Ford Motor Company in 1904
from the best perspective possible.

No one is alive today from 1904 except Alexander.

Everyone’s belief of events that occurred are based
on books written ( in some cases ) by dead people
who were not even alive in 1904.

Ford Motor Company Board Of Director
( BOD ) Minutes offer some insight.

Those do not necessarily tell what actually happened
at those meetings or what was happening at FMC
at the time.

This is why the “ discovery “ of Alexander - the journey
to get him running & driving - the temporary public display
at The Early Ford V-8 Foundation Museum in Auburn, Indiana
is so important.


Jim

[rotorwrench]

If a person reads enough of the archived personal accounts of Ford Motor Company's employees that were transcribed and are available on the Henry Ford plus some of the books that were written by and about the people that worked for Ford in those early years, you find that there were all forms of personality clashes and infighting amongst them. This is all human nature so a person does have to sometimes receive the information with a grain of salt. The more you read though, the more you see that it was a challenging environment from day one. A lot of it was due to Henry Fords nature but there were a lot of other personalities that came and went for one reason or another. James Couzens was their first treasurer and holder of purse strings. He eventually became the mayor of Detroit and on to a national Senate seat after Henry bought him out. Bill Knudsen went on to GM and ran the Chevrolet Division but was called up for duty during WWII to run the War Department's Office of Production. He is one of the few men in US history to have been commissioned as a Lieutenant General directly from being a civilian. The list goes on. You can't discount what these folks had to say even if some of it was detractive or self serving. The history of the Ford Motor Company is very complex and complicated but it's also very interesting.

[trulyvintage]

Today I picked up a 1913 Model T in the Denver area.

There was a 1911 Cadillac Demi Tonneau
in the garage ��








Jim

[40 Deluxe]

[QUOTE=trulyvintage;1916555

Personally - I am tired of " armchair experts " attempting
to influence history with personal opinions.


Truer words were never spoken!! Thank you! Sadly, these "armchair experts" seem to be everywhere. You hear their made-up, fake stories at car shows, in car clubs, on many forums (including fordbarn!), in books and magazines, even from random strangers.

[W_Higgins]

Originally Posted by trulyvintage

Personally - I am tired of " armchair experts " attempting
to influence history with personal opinions.

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Truer words were never spoken!! Thank you! Sadly, these "armchair experts" seem to be everywhere. You hear their made-up, fake stories at car shows, in car clubs, on many forums (including fordbarn!), in books and magazines, even from random strangers.

In this instance, said "armchair expert" is a respected individual with decades of hands-on Early Ford experience, an encyclopedic knowledge of the subject matter, and an actual car owner -- not some "Johnny come lately" with an agenda.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by W_Higgins

In this instance, said "armchair expert" is a respected individual with decades of hands-on Early Ford experience, an encyclopedic knowledge of the subject matter, and an actual car owner -- not some "Johnny come lately" with an agenda.

When I made my comment about "armchair experts" I was speaking about people in general who repeat falsehoods without caring for accuracy.
I did not realize that this discussion was primarily a tiff between two specific individuals (I don't know either one).

[W_Higgins]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

When I made my comment about "armchair experts" I was speaking about people in general who repeat falsehoods without caring for accuracy.
I did not realize that this discussion was primarily a tiff between two specific individuals (I don't know either one).

Understood. That was the context of the situation above and that is what I wanted to clear up.

[rotorwrench]

Although it never went into production, the 999 race car was quite a feat of fabrication in 1902. It was a monster at 1156 cubic inches with 7.25" X 7" bore & stroke. The suction intake valves were likely not going to be reliable for any length of time but it worked well enough to win races and set records. The Arrow and 999 cars were actually only a product of some of Henry Ford's ideas as well as other fabricators and they didn't belong to Ford directly since he was only an investor in those cars. Henry Ford later built a race car developed from two model A engines in effect making it a 4-cylinder. He also raced a much modified model K until it was destroyed in a crash.

Just about any design was modern in those early years but quickly became obsolete as new ideas were brought forth to improve things for further reliability.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Although it never went into production, the 999 race car was quite a feat of fabrication in 1902. It was a monster at 1156 cubic inches with 7.25" X 7" bore & stroke. The suction intake valves were likely not going to be reliable for any length of time but it worked well enough to win races and set records. The Arrow and 999 cars were actually only a product of some of Henry Ford's ideas as well as other fabricators and they didn't belong to Ford directly since he was only an investor in those cars. Henry Ford later built a race car developed from two model A engines in effect making it a 4-cylinder. He also raced a much modified model K until it was destroyed in a crash.

Just about any design was modern in those early years but quickly became obsolete as new ideas were brought forth to improve things for further reliability.

Don't forget the one-off Model N that Henry had hopped up by adding 2 more cylinders. The car still exists in running condition and has been discussed here on Fordbarn. Apparently he was quite the street racer, according to a newspaper clipping from back in the day.

[rotorwrench]

Ford's successes at racing and involvement in building the race cars did help with Ford Motor Company becoming a reality. He was well known in Detroit and elsewhere due to this. Alex Malcomson sure noticed and offered to bankroll the new Ford company.

I went back and re-read Charles Sorensen's book about the early years when he first got involved Henry Ford. He made patterns for Ford before he was hired on so he had some involvement with the early cars. C Harold Wills and Henry Ford had a lot to do with the development of the planetary transmission which was a first on the Model B. P.E. Martin was hired to assist as well. Both of these guys were around in 1903 and may have had other design involvement with the Model B as well as the other models. Wills went on to pioneer the use of chrome vanadium steels for certain parts on the Model N and to make a more reliable planetary transmission for the Model T. His involvement with this particular type of steel eventually eroded Henry Fords trust in him. Wills and Sorensen didn't get along and he was always trying to sell people on utilizing this type of steel since he was heavily invested in the process. Due to Wills' previous study of commercial art and calligraphy, he is credited with the original Ford logo taken from a calligraphy set that he had. I've seen Henry's signature and he didn't write his name that way as some folks claim. It's too bad that C.H.Wills and P.E. Martin didn't write memoirs like Charlie Sorensen did. There are books about C.H. Wills and P.E. Martin but they are very late books (2017 on each one) and I wonder how much research went into them. One critique wasn't very good for the one about Wills. C.H. Wills went on to build the Wills Sainte Claire automobiles which were a bit too far ahead of their time and the financial timing was bad due to the depression so the company folded. He died in 1940. P.E. Martin resigned from Ford in 1941 due to health reasons and died in 1944.

Ford Motor Company used several pattern making firms like the one Charlie Sorensen had worked for and they used several local foundries to make their castings. The Dodge brothers were involved as well and they may have also developed patterns and castings for parts of the model B and other cars. They were heavily involved with the Model K cars as well. The big 6 cylinder engine even looks a lot like the Model B 4 cylinder engine.

Charlie Sorensen mentioned that he would have batches of new parts made by the Dodge brothers returned to them because they wouldn't fit right. John would take them back but eventually those same parts would be sent back to Ford along with other new batches of parts. Needless to say, there was no love lost between Charlie and the Dodge brothers. It cost Henry Ford dearly to buy them out but he really had no other choice.

If I had to bank on it, I'd say that Ford, Wills, and Martin as well as the Dodge brothers had a lot of involvement for all the cars produced by Ford in that very early time frame.

[trulyvintage]

The Very Early History Of Ford Motor Company ( 1903 - 1906 )
as found in books written over the years was influenced heavily by Henry Ford.

What has been recorded is not necessarily what actually occurred.

Henry Ford approached Alexander Y. Malconson with a
partnership proposal.

Alexander Y. Malcomson brought in the other investors.

Alexander Y. Malcomson was the inspiration & driving force behind The 1904 Ford Model B - not Henry Ford.

Ford “ tolerated “ Malcomson because Malcomson was responsible
for the investment money.

Malcomson owned a Winton.

Malcomson had revolutionized the coal delivery business in Detroit.

He started with one yard and soon owned six - buying out the competition.

He modernized coal delivery with lighter wagons and less horsepower.

Malcomson was an equal match for Ford.

Their Dynamic & Struggle would be recreated years later
between Henry and Edsel Ford with The 1928-1931 Model A.

Malcomson was equally determined to build The Model A as Ford was determined to build The Model A.

Here is an engine from a 1904 Pope-Toledo that sold last year:

@ https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25219/lot/260/




Perhaps this was an inspiration for the 1904 Ford Model B.

The cylinder & manifold sides are reversed when
compared with the 1904 Ford Model B.

There has never been an opportunity to study and interpret
a 1904 Ford Model B in largely the original condition
as it left The Piquette Plant.

Research Is Ongoing.

That research threatens the opinions & beliefs
of some folks - they choose to belittle and attack.

“ Alexander “ was around long before anyone reading
this was born ....


Jim

[trulyvintage]

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If someone believes Henry Ford didn’t directly
influence the History Of Ford Motor Company ...









Interesting book I would like to read:


@ https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...1&d=1597162176



Jim

[rotorwrench]

The Mack Avenue building belonged to Alex Malcomson and was on the edge of one of his coal yards so this gave the fledgling company a place to start out. The much older banker John Gray came in as an investor along with Ford, Malcomson, and Couzins. John was the first President of the company. There were other smaller investors but the Dodge brothers started out as suppliers to the company. They were made investors by giving them shares when the company couldn't make payments for parts that had been invoiced but not yet payed. Since they had some skin in the game, they were more apt to help the company grow and grow it did.

A lot of the books about Henry Ford have some accuracy and some inaccuracy. It just depends on who wrote it. Henry was a self promoter which is a safe way to say that he could get full of himself and he loved the limelight. The reason he and Sorensen got along so well is that Henry wasn't much for reading blueprints. He had to have a 3D pattern to grasp whether a part was going to do what he wanted it to do and Charlie had a knack for visualizing what Henry wanted him to make. That and he minded his own business and never grandstanded. Henry disliked bragarts, know it alls, college boys, and above all, bankers. I doubt seriously that he ever kept a journal. He really didn't like to write all that much but he could dictate to those that could. His personality is what made Ford Motor Company but it wouldn't necessarily allow an accurate history to be portrayed.

A person gets a different story from each one of the people that worked for the company. Read enough of the first hand accounts that are archived at the Henry Ford and if becomes evident that there are two sides to every story.

Investigating an automobile would give some information depending on how much evidence is original. Researching patents may be a help to some degree. It certainly is one way to approach the history of a particular model. I hope you all can glean some decent information from the car.

[trulyvintage]

So I have not updated this thread in awhile.

But I have been busy doing research.

A couple weeks ago I was privileged to
view an Early Model B that the owner of
“ Alexander “ built a complete engine
for many years ago - the engine was
connected to the car - the car runs and drives.

A couple days ago - I was privileged to view
The Bill Harrah Early Model B with my friend
who owns “ Alexander “ and built the running
engine for the other Early Model B.

I have been looking into Oliver Edward Barthel.

In my research I came across a fist person
narrative archived at The Benson that was
conducted with Mr. Barthel in 1952.

This was five years after
Henry Ford died.


Jim

[muryan]

Originally Posted by trulyvintage

Before the Model T ...

Ford Motor Company’s first modern production
four cylinder motor














Jim
https://mindepcasinos.com/pl/

Looks amazing

[trulyvintage]

Much has happened since I started this thread.

First person historical narratives interest me
in particular - if they are not done for profit
or fame but for historical contribution.

Someone’s opinion who was not present when
events occurred and witnessed them firsthand
do not carry equal significance in my opinion.

I am satisfied that Oliver Edward Barthel
was the sole engineer - designer - tester
of the Grosse Pointe Racer that beat Winton
on October 10th, 1901.

I am also satisfied the Oliver started the design
work on the 999 Racer at the request of Henry Ford.

I came to that conclusion after I read
The July 1952 Interview archived at The Henry Ford.







Jim

[trulyvintage]

I have been privileged now to be the
only living person so far to view
and study firsthand these
1904-1905 Ford Model B’s:

Bill Harrah Model B

Cecil Ralston Model B

Wayland Henry Model B


Jim

[rotorwrench]

I had a mentor in my early years that worked for Bill Harrah. He was their Stanley Steamer specialist and had a lot of good stories about his time there in Reno. He mentioned Bill's model K Ford a few times but there were an abundance of different makes of cars there at the museum back then. He passed a few years back and I sure miss him.