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Old 05-11-2013, 04:11 PM   #1
MichaelSchwarzer
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Default French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Dear Model A enthusiasts,

since 2007 I follow your page and discussions and i took very many good hints and advise from this forum.
I am located in southern Germany (and I am German) and I am restoring a true barn find of a French 1930 Briggs Town Sedan. We startet in 2006 an try to finish in 2015.
The car was assembled around April 1930 in Asniere, near Paris in France and went through a rough history until ist was finally parked around 1961. In the meanwhile it detiorated into a remarkable wreck.
Please have a look on my restoration projekt at www.fordmodela.com.
I am very thankful that you made through your diskussions this projekt possible in detail, and want to give back a little to others. And of course get some acknowledgement from the experts!
Looking forward to hearing from you,

Michael
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:44 PM   #2
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Looks like a good project. A lot of work ahead of you for sure. Good Luck.

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Welcome aboard! You have quite a project ahead of you - thanks for posting pictures. Looking forward to more. Good luck.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Michael,

Where at in Germany are you?

I am very, very impressed with your website and craftmanship. Well done.

I will say this however...you just might want to reconsider your restorations of the Right and Left Spindle Arms and the Steering Gear Arm...I say this because I at one time purchased those three from someone who did just what you are doing.

As I was heading North and just as I got into Bend, Oregon, I will never forget the feeling when all of a sudden I had no steering!...The "welded" and or pressed-in ball came off the Steering Gear Arm...needless to say, I about soiled my britches!

If you can, find some good originals where the balls are good. I know this is a chore but I will tell you, you will feel a lot safer by doing it this way.

HOWEVER...if you feel confident in your work...then go for it...just my opinion on those three items!

Pluck
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Michael. I don't know what french Town Sedans were like, but in the US, it would not be a Town Sedan. First, no cowl lights. TSes, (Town Sedans) all have Cowl lights. Second, The dash Rail is painted. not wood grained. Third, No fold down arm rest in the center of the rear seat. Fourth, no light (maybe) by the top of the rear window. It is a oval lens with a oval Bezel, not round. I may be wrong about this, due to the difference between french models and US models. The Upholstery looks like green Mohair, a standard for Town Sedans. It's nice example for restoration. Macht Spass!
Terry
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:27 AM   #6
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Steve, thanks for your input and that you have startet a thread about the spindle ball subject.
Here it is not so easy to get useable original arms. But regarding your experience I will try, still "some " time left until the first drive. We are in the south of Germany, roundabout 50km south of Munich close to the alps in Bavaria.

Terry, we diskussed the "Town Sedan" issue a lot over here, as the car did not have cowl lights etc. But obviously it went trough a rough resoration, and the cowl lights were eliminated in exchange for the home made spare tire carrier. There were holes for the lights in the cowl. The entire car had been repainted by hand, also the interior parts as the dash and door/window mouldings. I have attached a picture which shows the brown basecolour, will try to get a better one. Under that black colour, there were some remains of the woodgraining. As the entire back seat was missing, we could not say whether there was a center arm rest or not. In the top wood there were holes for the srcews which attach the domelight carrier in the rear, the light itself missing. So we made a decision: TownSedan. But of course this can be wrong. There are some hints that more than one car are the basis of this one, so no one could say for sure. We tried to organize some information in France. But all documents of the factory were lost in WW2. Do you know whether there isin the US some information about the exported and foreign assembled cars?
Thank you so far. Michael
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelSchwarzer View Post
Steve, thanks for your input and that you have startet a thread about the spindle ball subject.
Here it is not so easy to get useable original arms. But regarding your experience I will try, still "some " time left until the first drive. We are in the south of Germany, roundabout 50km south of Munich close to the alps in Bavaria.

Terry, we diskussed the "Town Sedan" issue a lot over here, as the car did not have cowl lights etc. But obviously it went trough a rough resoration, and the cowl lights were eliminated in exchange for the home made spare tire carrier. There were holes for the lights in the cowl. The entire car had been repainted by hand, also the interior parts as the dash and door/window mouldings. I have attached a picture which shows the brown basecolour, will try to get a better one. Under that black colour, there were some remains of the woodgraining. As the entire back seat was missing, we could not say whether there was a center arm rest or not. In the top wood there were holes for the srcews which attach the domelight carrier in the rear, the light itself missing. So we made a decision: TownSedan. But of course this can be wrong. There are some hints that more than one car are the basis of this one, so no one could say for sure. We tried to organize some information in France. But all documents of the factory were lost in WW2. Do you know whether there isin the US some information about the exported and foreign assembled cars?
Thank you so far. Michael
Yes there is...It is contained on FORD's Assembly Record Types. France (Asnieres) alone built 347 Town Sedans in 1930 and a total of all units for Asnieres was 12065.

Hmmmmm...It must be 7:40 AM there?

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Old 05-12-2013, 01:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Hi Michael
I like your Model A.. It is a Town Sedan as you said as the cowl lamp holes are there, wood roof framing for rear interior lamp & also the deluxe garnish mouldings under the window frames.
I believe these 1930 Briggs sedans originate at the British Manchester Plant & were made LHD & assembled near Paris at Asnieres. Also you are right about French made parts on it as this was required all over Europe. Typically, French lamps, wiring, interiors etc were used [ probably also tires, glass etc.] but I am no expert on all of this. It appears to have been fitted with the large bore engine as the data plate states A; usually if it was a small bore, it would be stamped AF. It will have a US series engine # [ reserved for British cast Model A engines] and finally, some of these Sedans were fitted with sliding sun roofs & leather interiors, at least for the English market.

Last edited by Tudortomnz; 05-12-2013 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 05-12-2013, 05:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Quote:
It will have a US series engine # [ reserved for British cast Model A engines] and finally, some of these Sedans were fitted with sliding sun roofs & leather interiors, at least for the English market.
Really? A sun roof for sunny old England !
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:49 AM   #10
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

I read somewhere that headlamps on French cars, at some time past, were required to not have light projected through the front of the headlamp, but only through reflection off of a surface. I believe I've seen some Marchal lamps like this. Truth, or a only a bad recollection??
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
Michael. I don't know what french Town Sedans were like, but in the US, it would not be a Town Sedan. First, no cowl lights. TSes, (Town Sedans) all have Cowl lights. Second, The dash Rail is painted. not wood grained. Third, No fold down arm rest in the center of the rear seat. Fourth, no light (maybe) by the top of the rear window. It is a oval lens with a oval Bezel, not round. I may be wrong about this, due to the difference between french models and US models. The Upholstery looks like green Mohair, a standard for Town Sedans. It's nice example for restoration. Macht Spass!
Terry
I have a 30 Town Sedan with center arm rest , and thought all Town Sedans had the arm rest in the rear . DeAngelis book , "The Ford Model A" also shows it . Just courious .
Dave
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Old 05-12-2013, 09:19 AM   #12
Steve Plucker
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

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Originally Posted by davehc View Post
I have a 30 Town Sedan with center arm rest , and thought all Town Sedans had the arm rest in the rear . DeAngelis book , "The Ford Model A" also shows it . Just courious .
Dave
David,

You are correct...According to the FORD Body Parts List for August 15, 1930, page 37: the 155-C (Murray) and the 155-D (Briggs) both came with a (Rear Seat Center Arm) Rest Assembly.

The 170-B (Standard and De Luxe Fordor 2-window) also came with the Center Arm Rest.

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Old 05-12-2013, 09:28 AM   #13
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Its amazing to see the birdcage body wood. It makes me shudder to think I bought my Briggs Fordor without even looking at the wood. I didn't realize they were wood framed. I got lucky, the wood is all original and like new but I would not be up to the project you are doing. You will have a beautiful car when done. The Fordors drive differently than other A's because of the weight/balance of the body on the frame. We love ours. Look forward to watching the progress.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:25 PM   #14
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Off Topic, But do you know of a town named "Breitenbach" in Bavaria? One of my Great (?) grandfathers came from there.

Back On topic, From what you are saying, it's looking more and more like a Briggs Town sedan that someone "Customised" . Take a few more pictures of The windows. The area directly over the rear windows, and the wiring in the rear, and the rear interior. The Green mohair panels is a stock item for TSes, so that is another point towards it being a TS. I saw the holes in the cowl and wasn't sure if they were factory or not, especially with that weird mounting bracket (spare tire) sticking out of it. If it's not a TS, I would say it's a 4 dr deluxe.
Terry



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelSchwarzer View Post
Steve, thanks for your input and that you have startet a thread about the spindle ball subject.
Here it is not so easy to get useable original arms. But regarding your experience I will try, still "some " time left until the first drive. We are in the south of Germany, roundabout 50km south of Munich close to the alps in Bavaria.

Terry, we diskussed the "Town Sedan" issue a lot over here, as the car did not have cowl lights etc. But obviously it went trough a rough resoration, and the cowl lights were eliminated in exchange for the home made spare tire carrier. There were holes for the lights in the cowl. The entire car had been repainted by hand, also the interior parts as the dash and door/window mouldings. I have attached a picture which shows the brown basecolour, will try to get a better one. Under that black colour, there were some remains of the woodgraining. As the entire back seat was missing, we could not say whether there was a center arm rest or not. In the top wood there were holes for the srcews which attach the domelight carrier in the rear, the light itself missing. So we made a decision: TownSedan. But of course this can be wrong. There are some hints that more than one car are the basis of this one, so no one could say for sure. We tried to organize some information in France. But all documents of the factory were lost in WW2. Do you know whether there isin the US some information about the exported and foreign assembled cars?
Thank you so far. Michael
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Hi Michael
Welcome to the Barn ...
and long distance greetings from Frankfurt
Christoph
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:34 PM   #16
Ken Ehrenhofer
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Bonjour, Gutentag,
Do you have to speak French when you are driving a French Model A????LOL
Welcome and if we can be of some help please let us know,
Ken
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #17
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I'am heading to Germany in 23 days ...it would be great to see a A
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:54 PM   #18
MichaelSchwarzer
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tudortomnz View Post
Hi Michael
I like your Model A.. It is a Town Sedan as you said as the cowl lamp holes are there, wood roof framing for rear interior lamp & also the deluxe garnish mouldings under the window frames.
I believe these 1930 Briggs sedans originate at the British Manchester Plant & were made LHD & assembled near Paris at Asnieres. Also you are right about French made parts on it as this was required all over Europe. Typically, French lamps, wiring, interiors etc were used [ probably also tires, glass etc.] but I am no expert on all of this. It appears to have been fitted with the large bore engine as the data plate states A; usually if it was a small bore, it would be stamped AF. It will have a US series engine # [ reserved for British cast Model A engines] and finally, some of these Sedans were fitted with sliding sun roofs & leather interiors, at least for the English market.
Tom,

It is the large bore engine, number 278 671. The original roof had been replaced by some sheet metal, so I do not know about a sun roof.I can hardly blieve that for the UK. Thanks, Michael
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: French Ford Model A Town Sedan

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Originally Posted by roccaas View Post
I read somewhere that headlamps on French cars, at some time past, were required to not have light projected through the front of the headlamp, but only through reflection off of a surface. I believe I've seen some Marchal lamps like this. Truth, or a only a bad recollection??
Sorry, I have never heard about that!
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by eagle View Post
Its amazing to see the birdcage body wood. It makes me shudder to think I bought my Briggs Fordor without even looking at the wood. I didn't realize they were wood framed. I got lucky, the wood is all original and like new but I would not be up to the project you are doing. You will have a beautiful car when done. The Fordors drive differently than other A's because of the weight/balance of the body on the frame. We love ours. Look forward to watching the progress.
You are right. As I bought the car I had not a glue that there is a wooden frame. To be honest, I read a lot about Model As only after I bought one. The wood was very bad, as you can see. My brother is a carpenter, and so the project developed into a family project! We have some fun like archeologist must have in determing how the wood could have been shaped originally.
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