1928 35A Seat Belts?

[JohninKuranda]

Just wondering if anyone has installed seat front seat belts in a 1928 Phaeton (35A)? I am considering doing so, but with the bench seat I can see issues around placement, bolt head clearance etc. Any pics would be great as well.

Thanks!

John

[Jim/GA]

John, I have not. And I have not seen any that others have done.

I'm not sure you can get good anchor points into the body under the seat using just the original sheet metal. It will need to be very well reinforced.

I'm glad you are asking for guidance. I saw the seatbelt bolts on a coupe pull right out of the body sheetmetal like butter when the coupe was T-boned by a modern car at high speed. The seatbelts did very little of what they were supposed to do. It was sad.

I don't know if the "T-boned" expression is used down under. Visualize the front of one vehicle hitting straight into the side of a second vehicle, forming the letter T.

[alexiskai]

I’ll be putting belts in a 35-B next year, I’m sure I’ll post about it.

[MickyD]

I am not sure about your Phaeton but in my 28 Roadster I used a large washer and correct seatbelt bolts.On older cars from 50's and 60's I used 2" by 1/8 inch flat steel with hole to fit the bolts. Never had a wreck in my older cars so don't know if belts would work or not. Hopefully I will not find out in my 28.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MickyD

I am not sure about your Phaeton but in my 28 Roadster I used a large washer and correct seatbelt bolts.On older cars from 50's and 60's I used 2" by 1/8 inch flat steel with hole to fit the bolts. Never had a wreck in my older cars so don't know if belts would work or not. Hopefully I will not find out in my 28.

See, I think herein lies the problem for most people. Are hobbyists installing seat belts to actually have safety, -or to have the illusion of safety?

I have restored more than a few 35A/B and 40A/B bodies where I am familiar enough with the sheetmetal that makes-up the floor system to know it is not substantial enough to support bolting in safety belts. The other issue is the height by which the seat cushion causes the belt to angle will not hold that plane during an impact because the springs will collapse during the sudden G forces. Even if a piece of flat iron is bolted to reinforce the sheetmetal, those G forces will just bend that sheetmetal and that flat bar allowing the occupant's body to potentially move and hit something inside the cabin.

[alexiskai]

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Keep in mind, though, a major cause of Model A injuries is exiting the cabin altogether, through a weak door or just over the side. A belt that kept you inside the cabin would still reduce injury.

[DkFordor]

I'm still trying to get my head around the issue of seat belts.

Regarding your post, Brent, does the fact that a belt or anchoring point doesn't hold up completely in an accident mean it does not contribute something to the safety of the person? I mean, if the bar or sheet metal bends it will still have slowed the impact of the person compared to having no belts at all, wouldn't it?


I removed the old belts in my Fordor, and they for sure did not add to the safety due to the condition of the old B-posts of the car - so there are for sure implementations that do give a false sense of security.
With newly manufactured and correct B-posts I am in doubt if it may make sense again...

[Zax40]

I used a piece of flat steel under the floor that runs the width of the body tub on my roadster to reinforce the floor for my seatbelt mounts. I coated the steel with seam sealer where it faces the bottom of the tub to both seal and help hold it in place. The steel piece tucks under the lip of the body sides.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Keep in mind, though, a major cause of Model A injuries is exiting the cabin altogether, through a weak door or just over the side. A belt that kept you inside the cabin would still reduce injury.

Colin, you may be correct HOWEVER you may just 'think' you are correct. My point is, -most people that fasten a seat belt in an automobile have the expectation that it will safely secure them to prevent injury. That is a prudent expectation providing the safety belt DOES indeed keep someone inside the cabin. Some of us who have seen Model-As that have been subjected to a crash first-hand realize therein lies a problem with those expectations. Additionally, I have known at least two, and maybe three drivers that have received major internal injuries from hitting the steering wheel in a crash. I know one was a fatality and he was wearing a safety belt. I realize the odds are in favor of someone wearing a safety belt however, my point is more about giving a false expectation to an occupant who thinks the safety belt they are wearing is installed securely.

Originally Posted by DkFordor

Regarding your post, Brent, does the fact that a belt or anchoring point doesn't hold up completely in an accident mean it does not contribute something to the safety of the person? I mean, if the bar or sheet metal bends it will still have slowed the impact of the person compared to having no belts at all, wouldn't it?

Good question. I guess I would look at it in this manner. If your head hits the windshield at 45 mph during a frontal impact ...vs. at 35 mph during that same frontal impact but the hit was delayed and slowed somewhat because the safety belt momentarily held the occupant, how much head trauma is reduced between that 45 mph impact and the 35 mph impact? How much head trauma would be likely if the occupant could be fully restrained during the same hypothetical frontal impact??

Originally Posted by DkFordor

I removed the old belts in my Fordor, and they for sure did not add to the safety due to the condition of the old B-posts of the car - so there are for sure implementations that do give a false sense of security.
With newly manufactured and correct B-posts I am in doubt if it may make sense again...

Again, it is a tough decision to make.

Let's assume you do want to reinstall. I am assuming your Fordor is a wooden silled vehicle, but for this question I will ask it this way. Generally speaking, one half of the safety belt is not going to be anchored to the Body Lock Pillar (-a/k/a 'B' Pillar) so you are still dealing with some type of anchoring in that other area. Many of those bodies have wood cross sills which will be much more substantial over anchoring to sheetmetal -however one thing to consider with the Body Lock Pillar is where it is connected to the roof rail at the top. The factory design of this connection is kinda weak at the top, so be sure to reinforce that area too so it does not pull loose during a sudden impact. Also realize that the angle of the safety belt where it is anchored and then where it wraps around your body needs to be in a direct line to remain taunt.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Colin, you may be correct HOWEVER you may just 'think' you are correct. My point is, -most people that fasten a seat belt in an automobile have the expectation that it will safely secure them to prevent injury. That is a prudent expectation providing the safety belt DOES indeed keep someone inside the cabin. Some of us who have seen Model-As that have been subjected to a crash first-hand realize therein lies a problem with those expectations. Additionally, I have known at least two, and maybe three drivers that have received major internal injuries from hitting the steering wheel in a crash. I know one was a fatality and he was wearing a safety belt. I realize the odds are in favor of someone wearing a safety belt however, my point is more about giving a false expectation to an occupant who thinks the safety belt they are wearing is installed securely.

Certainly there's an obligation on the part of the operator to get genuinely informed consent from anyone riding in the car. They should be aware that these are very unsafe cars if hit by another car, and cannot be made safe. The purpose of the seat belt is to keep the rider inside the car, not to prevent injury.