The Ford Barn

Barry B./ Ma. · 09-12-2010, 06:55 PM

I really don't get it, in my state (Ma.) when you register and title a car you have to pay 6.25% sales tax on the purchase and that is determined by a bill of sale and the current NADA value (whichever is greater) then a safety inspection is requirred and every year thereafter. Antique plates can be assigned if the car is at least 25 years old to be renewed annually with driving restrictions or you can opt. for regular plates to be renewed every two years without the apparent driving restrictions. Antique auto insurance can be used in either case. I agree that highly modified cars, hotrods, retrorods etc. with big engines should not fall into the antique category and that is the part of this whole thing that bugs me. I think those vehicles abuse the classification of antique and it ends up hurting us guys with the stock Model A's. What type of body the car has shouldn't matter, it's the power train that makes the difference.

Vicky · 09-12-2010, 07:01 PM

The Old car council of Colorado was established in 1965 and is supported by antique, hot rod, vintage racing promotors and collector (MoPar, Mustang, Corbra, etc.) clubs throughout Colorado. There is a full time lobbyist to assist with managing legistation that impacts our hobby. If you would like more information, please check their web-site at: http://www.oldcarcouncil.org/index.html.

Bob

Model A Man · 09-12-2010, 10:48 PM

our goverment won't be happy till we all drive belly button cars. Didn't people hop up cars back in the 1930's changing lots of parts and it was still a model A.

'29wagon · 09-13-2010, 02:19 AM

Back in the thirties ? that was then. this is now. when you title a car you submit a statement of facts. facts, or lie and risk penalties. your auto club or highway patrol can assist you in actuating facts, a notary. then modify the damn thing drive the doors off. if a bill goes into effect, boost your ratrod rolling politician . get your lobbyist to block it, then figure out a way to keep it legal.
sixteen inch wheels are not modifications that effect the original function of the car, nor are louver vents, chrome dual horns or a chrome light bar. that's a bit bias.
now if we all restore according to that it'l be Mike's law and he might be the man to state authentic facts to restore for points. But we're talking legally presenting your item to a government agency that holds every right to respond to your statement of facts and tax you accordingly or fine you for lying .
and road worth is not the case.

Mike V. Florida · 09-13-2010, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by '29wagon

Back in the thirties ? that was then. this is now. when you title a car you submit a statement of facts. facts, or lie and risk penalties. your auto club or highway patrol can assist you in actuating facts, a notary. then modify the damn thing drive the doors off. if a bill goes into effect, boost your ratrod rolling politician . get your lobbyist to block it, then figure out a way to keep it legal.
sixteen inch wheels are not modifications that effect the original function of the car, nor are louver vents, chrome dual horns or a chrome light bar. that's a bit bias.
now if we all restore according to that it'l be Mike's law and he might be the man to state authentic facts to restore for points. But we're talking legally presenting your item to a government agency that holds every right to respond to your statement of facts and tax you accordingly or fine you for lying .
and road worth is not the case.

What I see in your post is two different issues; "when you title a car you submit a statement of facts.","...figure out a way to keep it legal."

On this issue I agree 100%. Some states make it easy while others are a real pain in the ass. But no matter where you live I fell that you should never misrepresent facts.

No as for the "...now if we all restore according to that it'l be Mike's law..." I was commenting on Chris's question on when does a Model A no longer remain a Model A when he said "Look up "Ship of Theseus".

I was just giving my opinion on his post. You stated "sixteen inch wheels are not modifications that effect the original function of the car, "

If you read up on "Ship of Theseus" You will see an example of George Washingtons Axe. If someone found the actual axe he cut down the cherry tree with and noticed the handle was rotted and replaced it would it still be his axe? What would happen years latter when the axe head was all rusted and a new one was put on the handle. Would it be Washingtons axe now? These are not modifications that effect the original function of the axe.

My comments were then and now my opinions. There are no correct answers to when something is no longer what was orignally.

I hope for, and welcome discussion on this as I find this interesting.

Bruce Adams · 09-13-2010, 06:13 AM

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"I wonder ho much longer we will be able to buy over the Internet w/o paying taxes? I'm surprised they haven't gone after that more than they have.

Is it only NYS where my annual income tax gives me the "Opportunity" to either declare how much tax free stuff I bought out of state or on line, or to pay an amount they feel is right?

Mike V. Florida · 09-13-2010, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Adams

"I wonder ho much longer we will be able to buy over the Internet w/o paying taxes? I'm surprised they haven't gone after that more than they have.

I ordered some furniture from out of state and received a tax bill from Fla. as it was in a load that was checked at the border.

pdora · 09-13-2010, 07:20 AM

Just one more manifestation of the big vs. small government debate currently coming to a boil.

PeteVS · 09-13-2010, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Adams

Is it only NYS where my annual income tax gives me the "Opportunity" to either declare how much tax free stuff I bought out of state or on line, or to pay an amount they feel is right?

When you do income taxes in New Jersey, there's a place to add an amount for tax on items you've purchased without paying sales tax.

1931 flamingo · 09-13-2010, 08:03 AM

CT has the same block on their tax formsPaul in CT

CWPASADENA · 09-13-2010, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

If someone found the actual axe he cut down the cherry tree with and noticed the handle was rotted and replaced it would it still be his axe? What would happen years latter when the axe head was all rusted and a new one was put on the handle. Would it be Washingtons axe now? These are not modifications that effect the original function of the axe.

There are no correct answers to when something is no longer what was orignally.

This I will agree with.

It gets to be a gray area as to what actually constitutes the original item. In the case with George Washington's Ax, it still looks like the original ax that George actually held in his hand and it does have lineage back to the original, however, if one would remove the old rusted ax head from the replacement handle and install a chain saw, I think you could no longer consider this to be George Washingtons Ax.

This is what I feel is the case with representing a "T" Body on "A" Rails with a 454 engine to be a "Historic" Vehicle.

Again, This is JUST MY OPINION!

Chris

MikeK · 09-13-2010, 10:58 AM

Every modern car contains some iron atoms from scrap sources that came from antique vehicles, and this lineage can be traced and documented. All new cars should therefore be entitled to antique or horseless carriage plates, licenses, and titles.

Rowdy · 09-13-2010, 11:05 AM

I am waiting for Nebraska to do something simular with all of the ratrods that have been built over the last 10 years. Nearly all of them used a title service, which they ended up with title that says original. Most Deputies that do the inspection do not know the way the law is written in the state statutes for pre 1948 vehicles only the engine # is used. Or they choose to overlook it. Rod

RTC1930 · 09-13-2010, 11:41 AM

Bummer, I was looking forward to registering my car this week in NJ but now it sounds like I may be in for a ride. The process in NJ originally sounded better then some other states but now im not so sure. My father gave me the car so I need to transfer the title to my name which hopefully will be painless but it hasn't been registered in years.

I finally got the body back on the frame yesterday so I snapped some quick pics without the hood for the pictures the DMV requires during registration. I hope they dont mistake it for a modified without the hood and headlights on it.

The statement that really concerns me is that they may want to see the frame serial stamp. The car has the original motor with matching numbers to the title and has been in my family since the 30's but it appears the frame was never stamped. I restored the frame with the body off and saw NO indication of a stamp. Not sure what to do if they require it, not to mention I DO NOT want to take that body back off.

Bob NJ

Frank Miller · 09-13-2010, 11:54 AM

Massachusetts tried to sue Towne Fair Tire in New Hampshire for not collecting sales tax from Mass residents. It was eventually dropped when they realized how stupid this was. The states lose money on mail order sales but can you imagine owning a business and being responsible for keeping track of taxes on all 50 states. It would drive the price up. Someone also stated that if you pay 6% in one state and your state is 7% you need to pay the difference. If I pay 9% in NY I do not think Mass will refund the 2.75% difference.

As for modified drivelines and such would a hot rod built 50 years ago with a SBC qualify as a historic vehicle? Should a Model A that was completely original and then modified with 4 speed trans, F1 steering box, Model B engine and hydraulic brakes be retitled as something else?

denis4x4 · 09-14-2010, 07:43 AM

Two factoids worth considering here; 1) I have no problem paying a Colorado Highway Patrolman $25 to come to the shop a do a VIN verification document on a bare frame. This document can be submitted at a later date for registration purposes. 2) According to the service bulletins, Ford shipped replacement blocks WITHOUT serial numbers so that the dealer could stamp a number matching the registration in states requiring matching numbers.
10 or 12 years ago, I purchased Model A running gear from a well known A restorer. Since I was taking the vehicle to Colorado and using the frame number for registration purposes, he kept the pink slip to register a hot rod and actually ground the serial number off the A block. Needless to say, I turned the info over to the DMV fraud division and there were some heavy fines passed out.

FL&WVMIKE · 09-14-2010, 11:03 AM

Collecting sales tax on items bought in other states is confusing to me. It looks, to me, that they are turning it into a "buyer's" tax, instead of a "SALES" tax.
If I live in Florida and order something from West Virginia, why does the vendor not write up the West Virginia sales tax and charge me that ? The West Virginian is the one making the SALE. What difference should it make, as to where I am from ? If I traveled to West Virginia to make the purchase, I would pay the West Virginia sales tax. Why would the state of Florida have a right to my sales tax ? And vica-versa.
I have often wondered about this.
MIKE

5window · 09-14-2010, 11:55 AM

Sales tax is a tax charged to the seller by a state. As business owners, we pass the charge on to the consumer. In PA, if you buy a dog leash from me, I charge you 6% and pass it on to the state. When registering your car in PA, you need to show that you paid taxes somewhere, not necessarily in PA on your parts. I had receipts for everything major I bought in state, receipts with no sales tax for stuff I bought online and receipts with sales tax I paid on things from out-of -state sources. No problem.
If a seller does not charge you sales tax,and your sale is investigated, the fault lies with the seller, not the buyer.

Kevin in NJ · 09-14-2010, 12:07 PM

Mike,

Sales tax is confusing, but there is good logic behind it all.

The laws are simple, they do not want people going out of state to get a lower sales tax on their purchases. This frequently happens in DE, they have no sales tax. So people from surrounding states make trips to DE for major purchases to save on taxes. One could also imagine that the tax difference would hurt some business for the higher tax rate state.

Even NJ with the 7% sales tax, we get people from NY as they pay even more sales tax- I think some areas are up around 10% in NY.

Here is something else to consider.
In NJ you are liable for the difference in sales tax.
If you bought an item in WV where they charged charged 3% sales tax (I am making up the number) then NJ wants the 4% needed to make it the NJ rate of 7%. There is a nice spot on your NJ tax form that you can allow for paying of said taxes. This rule is there to reduce lost state revenue and to theoretically help NJ businesses.

As much as we all do not like taxes, the laws are there for the best intentions. The states do need money to run.

We are coming up on Hershey.
That was one of the reasons why PA changed some of its tax code. The PA lawmakers saw some serious $$ because of the shows they hosted and realized they were not getting any $$ from taxes. They forced all the vendors to get sale tax licenses and larger businesses got some kind of a corporate tax on all their earnings even if they were out of state. I believe it is Dennis Carpender that had to make a special PA business up to be able to sell at the PA events without incurring taxes on his whole business sales.

I believe the net effect of the PA tax changes came to the fact people would now send in some kind of money. Surely a fraction of what they actually took in, but it was better then nothing.

As time goes on we are going to see more efforts by the government to get their fair share the law allows them to take. It will be important for all to understand the correct way to do business. Soon there will be the whole 1099 issue. This was in the health care bill. Any transaction or transactions the total to $600 or more must be reported through a 1099 form. So if you sell an axle, a door and seat over a 6 month period in one year and it totals $603 to Bert's then he will have to get your SSN and give you a 1099 and you will have to report the $603 income on your taxes.

With the advent of computers and the net then the tracking of what you have done can be as easy as a simple search of your name. For example, the tax man searches your name and finds your name on your fordbarn account and sees you boasting about that sale of your car for $6000 and notices you only show making $2000.

Anyway, Some food for thought.

Please keep in mind the above is not a political commentary. It is just the basic facts as they appear to me. I am not arguing the fairness, just pointing how some of the taxes work from what I have experienced in the last few years.

hardtimes · 09-14-2010, 12:58 PM

Trying to get car owners , of all types of cars, together is like trying to herd cats! It's amusing to listen to one group snipe another group. But, it's down right disturbing to listen to an intolerant tell someone, in the same basic group, that they are not 'this because of that'! And, you think that some threatening thing will come along to overcome prejudice, hmm.
But, what fries my senses is hypocrisy. How many car owners know "someone" who will "do a favor" using their authority to sign off on a vehicle...when anyone/everyone would know that that is thwarting the law? I've seen it and know of car owners 'friends' who have come to the house to do the "favor". Our society seems to be based ever more lately on this behavior. Herding cats..yeah.

09-12-2010, 06:55 PM	#21
Barry B./ Ma. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southbridge, Ma. Posts: 1,614	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods I really don't get it, in my state (Ma.) when you register and title a car you have to pay 6.25% sales tax on the purchase and that is determined by a bill of sale and the current NADA value (whichever is greater) then a safety inspection is requirred and every year thereafter. Antique plates can be assigned if the car is at least 25 years old to be renewed annually with driving restrictions or you can opt. for regular plates to be renewed every two years without the apparent driving restrictions. Antique auto insurance can be used in either case. I agree that highly modified cars, hotrods, retrorods etc. with big engines should not fall into the antique category and that is the part of this whole thing that bugs me. I think those vehicles abuse the classification of antique and it ends up hurting us guys with the stock Model A's. What type of body the car has shouldn't matter, it's the power train that makes the difference.

09-12-2010, 07:01 PM	#22
Vicky Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Colorado Posts: 235	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods The Old car council of Colorado was established in 1965 and is supported by antique, hot rod, vintage racing promotors and collector (MoPar, Mustang, Corbra, etc.) clubs throughout Colorado. There is a full time lobbyist to assist with managing legistation that impacts our hobby. If you would like more information, please check their web-site at: http://www.oldcarcouncil.org/index.html. Bob

09-12-2010, 10:48 PM	#23
Model A Man Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sarasota Florida Posts: 604	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods our goverment won't be happy till we all drive belly button cars. Didn't people hop up cars back in the 1930's changing lots of parts and it was still a model A.

09-13-2010, 02:19 AM	#24
'29wagon Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: H.B. California Posts: 451	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Back in the thirties ? that was then. this is now. when you title a car you submit a statement of facts. facts, or lie and risk penalties. your auto club or highway patrol can assist you in actuating facts, a notary. then modify the damn thing drive the doors off. if a bill goes into effect, boost your ratrod rolling politician . get your lobbyist to block it, then figure out a way to keep it legal. sixteen inch wheels are not modifications that effect the original function of the car, nor are louver vents, chrome dual horns or a chrome light bar. that's a bit bias. now if we all restore according to that it'l be Mike's law and he might be the man to state authentic facts to restore for points. But we're talking legally presenting your item to a government agency that holds every right to respond to your statement of facts and tax you accordingly or fine you for lying . and road worth is not the case.

09-13-2010, 06:13 AM	#26
Bruce Adams Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northport, NY Posts: 1,597	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) "I wonder ho much longer we will be able to buy over the Internet w/o paying taxes? I'm surprised they haven't gone after that more than they have. Is it only NYS where my annual income tax gives me the "Opportunity" to either declare how much tax free stuff I bought out of state or on line, or to pay an amount they feel is right?

09-13-2010, 07:20 AM	#28
pdora Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Rutledge, Georgia Posts: 184	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Just one more manifestation of the big vs. small government debate currently coming to a boil. __________________ Peter A. Dora -- Rutledge, GA (AE4XH)

09-13-2010, 08:03 AM	#30
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods CT has the same block on their tax formsPaul in CT

09-13-2010, 10:58 AM	#32
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Windy City Posts: 2,919	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Every modern car contains some iron atoms from scrap sources that came from antique vehicles, and this lineage can be traced and documented. All new cars should therefore be entitled to antique or horseless carriage plates, licenses, and titles.

09-13-2010, 11:05 AM	#33
Rowdy BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gothenburg Nebraska Just off I-80 Posts: 4,893	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods I am waiting for Nebraska to do something simular with all of the ratrods that have been built over the last 10 years. Nearly all of them used a title service, which they ended up with title that says original. Most Deputies that do the inspection do not know the way the law is written in the state statutes for pre 1948 vehicles only the engine # is used. Or they choose to overlook it. Rod __________________ Do the RIGHT thing - Support the H.A.M.B. Alliance!!!!

09-13-2010, 11:41 AM	#34
RTC1930 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Stockholm, NJ Posts: 106	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Bummer, I was looking forward to registering my car this week in NJ but now it sounds like I may be in for a ride. The process in NJ originally sounded better then some other states but now im not so sure. My father gave me the car so I need to transfer the title to my name which hopefully will be painless but it hasn't been registered in years. I finally got the body back on the frame yesterday so I snapped some quick pics without the hood for the pictures the DMV requires during registration. I hope they dont mistake it for a modified without the hood and headlights on it. The statement that really concerns me is that they may want to see the frame serial stamp. The car has the original motor with matching numbers to the title and has been in my family since the 30's but it appears the frame was never stamped. I restored the frame with the body off and saw NO indication of a stamp. Not sure what to do if they require it, not to mention I DO NOT want to take that body back off. Bob NJ

09-13-2010, 11:54 AM	#35
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Massachusetts tried to sue Towne Fair Tire in New Hampshire for not collecting sales tax from Mass residents. It was eventually dropped when they realized how stupid this was. The states lose money on mail order sales but can you imagine owning a business and being responsible for keeping track of taxes on all 50 states. It would drive the price up. Someone also stated that if you pay 6% in one state and your state is 7% you need to pay the difference. If I pay 9% in NY I do not think Mass will refund the 2.75% difference. As for modified drivelines and such would a hot rod built 50 years ago with a SBC qualify as a historic vehicle? Should a Model A that was completely original and then modified with 4 speed trans, F1 steering box, Model B engine and hydraulic brakes be retitled as something else?

09-14-2010, 07:43 AM	#36
denis4x4 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Durango CO Posts: 1,309	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Two factoids worth considering here; 1) I have no problem paying a Colorado Highway Patrolman $25 to come to the shop a do a VIN verification document on a bare frame. This document can be submitted at a later date for registration purposes. 2) According to the service bulletins, Ford shipped replacement blocks WITHOUT serial numbers so that the dealer could stamp a number matching the registration in states requiring matching numbers. 10 or 12 years ago, I purchased Model A running gear from a well known A restorer. Since I was taking the vehicle to Colorado and using the frame number for registration purposes, he kept the pink slip to register a hot rod and actually ground the serial number off the A block. Needless to say, I turned the info over to the DMV fraud division and there were some heavy fines passed out.

09-14-2010, 11:03 AM	#37
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Collecting sales tax on items bought in other states is confusing to me. It looks, to me, that they are turning it into a "buyer's" tax, instead of a "SALES" tax. If I live in Florida and order something from West Virginia, why does the vendor not write up the West Virginia sales tax and charge me that ? The West Virginian is the one making the SALE. What difference should it make, as to where I am from ? If I traveled to West Virginia to make the purchase, I would pay the West Virginia sales tax. Why would the state of Florida have a right to my sales tax ? And vica-versa. I have often wondered about this. MIKE

09-14-2010, 11:55 AM	#38
5window Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisburg,PA Posts: 938	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Sales tax is a tax charged to the seller by a state. As business owners, we pass the charge on to the consumer. In PA, if you buy a dog leash from me, I charge you 6% and pass it on to the state. When registering your car in PA, you need to show that you paid taxes somewhere, not necessarily in PA on your parts. I had receipts for everything major I bought in state, receipts with no sales tax for stuff I bought online and receipts with sales tax I paid on things from out-of -state sources. No problem. If a seller does not charge you sales tax,and your sale is investigated, the fault lies with the seller, not the buyer.

09-14-2010, 12:07 PM	#39
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Mike, Sales tax is confusing, but there is good logic behind it all. The laws are simple, they do not want people going out of state to get a lower sales tax on their purchases. This frequently happens in DE, they have no sales tax. So people from surrounding states make trips to DE for major purchases to save on taxes. One could also imagine that the tax difference would hurt some business for the higher tax rate state. Even NJ with the 7% sales tax, we get people from NY as they pay even more sales tax- I think some areas are up around 10% in NY. Here is something else to consider. In NJ you are liable for the difference in sales tax. If you bought an item in WV where they charged charged 3% sales tax (I am making up the number) then NJ wants the 4% needed to make it the NJ rate of 7%. There is a nice spot on your NJ tax form that you can allow for paying of said taxes. This rule is there to reduce lost state revenue and to theoretically help NJ businesses. As much as we all do not like taxes, the laws are there for the best intentions. The states do need money to run. We are coming up on Hershey. That was one of the reasons why PA changed some of its tax code. The PA lawmakers saw some serious $$ because of the shows they hosted and realized they were not getting any $$ from taxes. They forced all the vendors to get sale tax licenses and larger businesses got some kind of a corporate tax on all their earnings even if they were out of state. I believe it is Dennis Carpender that had to make a special PA business up to be able to sell at the PA events without incurring taxes on his whole business sales. I believe the net effect of the PA tax changes came to the fact people would now send in some kind of money. Surely a fraction of what they actually took in, but it was better then nothing. As time goes on we are going to see more efforts by the government to get their fair share the law allows them to take. It will be important for all to understand the correct way to do business. Soon there will be the whole 1099 issue. This was in the health care bill. Any transaction or transactions the total to $600 or more must be reported through a 1099 form. So if you sell an axle, a door and seat over a 6 month period in one year and it totals $603 to Bert's then he will have to get your SSN and give you a 1099 and you will have to report the $603 income on your taxes. With the advent of computers and the net then the tracking of what you have done can be as easy as a simple search of your name. For example, the tax man searches your name and finds your name on your fordbarn account and sees you boasting about that sale of your car for $6000 and notices you only show making $2000. Anyway, Some food for thought. Please keep in mind the above is not a political commentary. It is just the basic facts as they appear to me. I am not arguing the fairness, just pointing how some of the taxes work from what I have experienced in the last few years.

09-14-2010, 12:58 PM	#40
hardtimes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South California Posts: 6,188	Re: NJ is pulling titles on Hotrods Trying to get car owners , of all types of cars, together is like trying to herd cats! It's amusing to listen to one group snipe another group. But, it's down right disturbing to listen to an intolerant tell someone, in the same basic group, that they are not 'this because of that'! And, you think that some threatening thing will come along to overcome prejudice, hmm. But, what fries my senses is hypocrisy. How many car owners know "someone" who will "do a favor" using their authority to sign off on a vehicle...when anyone/everyone would know that that is thwarting the law? I've seen it and know of car owners 'friends' who have come to the house to do the "favor". Our society seems to be based ever more lately on this behavior. Herding cats..yeah.