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Old 06-26-2014, 11:46 AM   #21
marc hildebrant
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Joes31,

I would suggest that you check out the timing instructions on Marco's Model A site.
The method uses that most accurate way to setup the timing and it is the way that the service manual states.

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Old 06-26-2014, 12:15 PM   #22
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Joe, If the rotor tip points exactly like the picture and won't move at all in the clockwise direction after the cam screw is tightened the timing will be good.You can experiment with points gap within the original specs range from .018 to .022 to determine the gap that most suits your needs. For quicker throttle response I use a gap of .022 . A lesser gap may be better for idle. I run mine with full advance at speed. If the model A was never suppose to run at full advance, why was it built with that option. With a stock engine, don't expect 40 horsepower to have a lot of acceleration.I run a lighter model B flywheel and a higher compression head among other mods on my roadster and it accelerates much like a modern car. As for acceleration A lighter flywheel makes a noticeable improvement. Heavy rotating assemblies don't respond very quickly. I feel a lot like Kevin does about the V8 points. I didn't want to come across in a scolding manner and I haven't said much if anything about them in this thread. You did ask for advice in the original post and that is what I have tried to give,according to my lifetime of experience with model A's. You may be expecting more than will be possible without more mods. Even my completely stock 31 tudor can cruise at 55 and will run at least 65 but doesn't have throttle response or hill climbing ability anywhere close to the way my modified roadster or speedster does. Model A engines respond well to mods. Good luck in your quest.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:31 PM   #23
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Hi Joe 31,

FWIW; Simple Quick Timing Check ....... "After Initial timing".

First, sorry to hear the new distributor parts did not fit -- this can be most frustrating for all of us.

1. But just assume one is out on the highway & he did not bring his timing light to test his timing; & he has back & forth play, (CW & CCW), in the distributor shaft & he wants to "double-check" his or someone else's initial timing.

2. After initial timing according to whoever's advice whether verbal or written, with or without lots of shaft play, a simple "accurate" subsequent timing test can easily be performed.

3. It is best to remove 4 plugs so engine hand cranks easily, & rotate engine until timing pin slips in. At this point with no plugs, the fan can be used to slightly rotate engine back & forth. ("I'll get murdered on this advice, but I'm not bothered.")

4. With distributor fully assembled, switch "ON", connect removed plug no. 1, lay it on its side for a good ground, & position same such that one can see the gap.

5. Rotate engine back & forth very slightly with fan blade -- when timing pin hits bottom of timing gear recess, plug no. 1 should fire at this very moment -- try rotating it back & forth several times until you feel certain it is correct.

Hope this helps to avoid concern about backlash, misaligned points, loose rotor, screwed up distributor cap, or whatever else can & will go wrong, etc., etc. with anyone's initial timing.

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 06-26-2014 at 01:47 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

once you get the timing squared away, run a compression test. maybe you have a weak cyl.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Good idea, The engine only has 700 miles and I pulled the head because of what looked like a seeping gasket. The cylinders looked perfect as much as you can see from the top. Could it have a bad ring yes but not probable. It was rebuilt 15 years ago by a reputable builder at the time. I'll still check it.

I re-timed it today. I set it up as the picture with all CW lash out and re-set the points to .020. It still seemed to have too much advanced so I put a light on it and it came on at full retard. I re-adjusted it so when I advance the spark about three clicks on the lever the light comes on. It ran much better in that position. I think that is where I will leave it. It seems to be the optimal timing. Not exactly the accuracy I am accustom to. If I could just find the OBD plug on the car!

What I should do now is find someone that has an A and let then drive it to get an opinion. I was told that we have a really good Model A club in the area, the Santa Anita Model A Club here in Southern California. I'll have to seek them out where ever they are.

Now on to the next project.....fix the speedometer, remove the broken tap someone left in the dash plate mount, etc etc.

Thanks for all the help.
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

"Now on to the next project.....fix the speedometer, remove the broken tap someone left in the dash plate mount, etc etc."

By "dash plate" do you mean the instrument panel? Was someone trying to realign the mounting holes to fit the wrong repro instrument panel holes?
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

OBD connector ? Every Model A has one, it sits on the shoulders of the owner/operator. Its the original diagnostic center. [ smiley face]
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:32 AM   #28
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

JOES31,

Thanks for bring up the subject, my 31' I discovered has modern points as well... Sounds from this and other threads I've read, back in the day (long time ago) the condensers could not take the heat. It sounds like today that's not really an issue anymore. If in terms of adjustment, original point are easier, I maybe should consider a spare distributer with all original point etc. and keep to two versions separate.

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Old 06-27-2014, 06:59 AM   #29
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

A good running Model A with the original 3.78 differential, no overdrive and no ait filter should be able to do 60 MPH on a level road with only the driver aboard. My Model A cruises at 55 MPH on the highway with two people aboard, There is enough throttle left to accelerate to 60+ MPH.

As for points and condenser, the original style is est for fit and reliability. The least reliable is the electronic stuff, and there is no advantage to modern points and condenser. The best spark plug choice is the Motorcraft TT10.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:32 AM   #30
JOES31
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Mike
In my opinion I wouldn't go through the trouble of changing the distributor plate back to the original. It basically didn't make any difference in the timing with my car. The old points are difficult to get aligned without modifying the point block adjustment hole. Maybe a reproduction problem. Heck the fiber washer that goes on the condenser wouldn't fit through the distributor. I have never seen such crap produced. By the time you get the gap set the points are no longer parallel. I can see why guys go to the modern plate or an electronic ignition. Electronic ignition had problem when we first started using them because of heat and they were not reliable over 8,000 RPMs. That changed about 20 years ago. There is a video by Les Andrews on You Tube and he goes through the proper procedure to fine tune the timing on the A. As far as keeping another distributor I think that would be a waste. There are many things that can go wrong. Maybe a set of points and condenser. Really now what can happen to a set of points? Well then again in a Model A?

Tom, I call it what it is. A plate that houses the gauges. It seem far from an instrument panel to me but I guess that's just semantics. Some clown must have been trying to tap the threads on the upper right and broke a tap off inside. They put a screw in the panel with a ground off nut to cover their mistake. It's going to be a tough one to get it out. EDM would work great but not a good idea to do that on the gas tank. I prefer to live a few more years. I discovered it when I removed the speedometer and AMP meter.

Does anyone make any parts for the A that actually work and install without fitting? I have learned why most of you say fix the old parts. Problem is parts like points you cannot refurbish. These repo parts are terrible. I have had several parts that I had to modify. What the heck is the problem?

Last edited by JOES31; 06-27-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:34 PM   #31
Tootall
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

after reading all of the answers to the Modern Points Decussion, I am scared to ask my question, but I will anyway. Is the point gap the same with Modern Points as it is with the Original Points?
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Old 05-27-2017, 03:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Yes
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:00 PM   #33
Peyton
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Both, old for distributor presently on car; modern for backup. I've found the old style points are the easiest to adjust.
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Old 05-27-2017, 07:02 PM   #34
Chuck Sea/Tac
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

A good set of replacement points are Napa cs30. Echlin
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Old 05-27-2017, 09:30 PM   #35
George Miller
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

These so called modern points are over 40 years old. That does not seem to modern to me.
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Old 05-27-2017, 10:33 PM   #36
Mike V. Florida
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

What Kevin in NJ said.
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Old 05-28-2017, 06:21 AM   #37
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
Ditto, Some are going back to the original points, and some have stayed with them because they are the easiest most reliable points to work with. If you need to buy good original points, Jim Sinclair has some for sale, as well as the parts vendors.
Agree I went back to originals and they are great. I got mine of Ebay NOS and I reckon they'll see me out -Karl
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Old 05-28-2017, 06:53 AM   #38
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Default Re: Old Points or Modern Points

Thanks for the informative post.
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