Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?

[Jason in TX]

Hello! I recently picked up a great collection of vintage flathead stuff, including a full house 3/8 by 3/8 flathead with a 404A cam, radius lifters, etc. The works.

Also in the deal was an extra "special" custom ground cam that was done especially for the previous owner. The previous owner has passed away, so this information is coming from his son who sold me the parts.

His son said that his father knew Ed Iskenderian and Ed did this special grind for him to match the Harley Davidson profile. He told me that it should make the flathead sound like a 4 harleys running at the same time!

Going off the markings scribed between the lobes on the cam, I'm trying to figure out if anyone has any info or heard anything about this type of cam.

Written on the cam is

Z98L (or maybe Z981)
12436
ISKYc
011 (or maybe QN)
404A

Pictures below.

[Tim Ayers]

Can't help you with the cam, but that set of new lifters for the 404A are worth quite a bit.

[RalphM]

That is a wicked looking "toe" on those can lobes, looks like the lifters going to jump from one edge to the other.
Maybe some of the cam grinders on here can ID that one.

[jetmek]

I think Harley gets its unique sound more from the cyl bank angle and single crank pin than from the cam...just send it to me and ill evaluate it for you ....Seriously tho I was told that was designed for circle track racing...Not much streetablity

[JSeery]

That to me looks like a lot of lift and very little duration! High ramp speed!

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by jetmek

I think Harley gets its unique sound more from the cyl bank angle and single crank pin than from the cam...just send it to me and ill evaluate it for you ....Seriously tho I was told that was designed for circle track racing...Not much streetablity

Harleys get some of there sound from that but most from their unique way the cylinders fire one right after other. Almost like a radial engine would vs. A true twin.

[Jason in TX]

In order to get the cam, I had to buy a few other things....



inside the engine

[Ol' Ron]

Now, that's a beautiful sight. Reminds me of my yout

[flatheadmurre]

Wow .
Thats some real nice stuff you got there !

[JSeery]

Got stuck will all of that just for a cam! Musta really wanted that cam.

[Pete]

The Harley cam was a roller profile and used roller diameters of approximately .900 give or take.
The radius on the 404 lifter is 2.00.
The cam profiles are not similar.

[Bored&Stroked]

As noted, you have an Isky 404-A radius cam . . . probably one of the best cams that Isky ever made. The engine valley that you show - also has an Isky 404-A in it. Looks like you bought a great collection of parts - good for you.

As Pete noted - there is nothing similar in this cam to a Harley Davidson flathead cam/profile . . . completely different designs (not only in the lifter style, but the pattern, lobe centers - everything).

If you want to get into the specifics of what you have - drop me a PM.

B&S

[jonf]

I see 2 pins in each lifter bore. Is that because that engine uses roller lifters?

[RalphM]

Yep, keeps em from rotating(I think it's one pin, bent like a u).
Is that an Italmeccanica blower?

[Pete]

Radius lifters. The key keeps them from turning.
Here is a pic of a standard 404 lifter and of a drilled ones for lightening. Some have buttons on top, some do not.

[expavr]

I have a technical question regarding the blown flathead: The fuel system is setup with 6 - 97's which works out to be 900 CFM at WOT. Is it possible for a flathead to take advantage of that fuel charge? By comparison I've a supercharged 392 hemi with a 750 CFM Holley 4150 that dynoed 535 HP at 5200 RPM. It seems like there is too much carburetion on that engine for its displacement. What am I missing?

[RalphM]

Yea, but it looks really bitchn!

[Jason in TX]

Expavr - the blower came with that Weiand 471 6x2 bolted on top. When these Italmeccanica superchargers were sold for flatheads in 1949-1950, they were rated for 4500 Cc's, or 274 cu/in. They had mounts for 2 Stromberg 97s.

The engine is a 3/8 by 3/8 296 engine, huge ports and actually had the Evans 4x2 originally on it and was intended to run nitro. It's never been fired.

A Cfm calculator says about 430 Cfm should be plenty for a 296 at 100% volumetric efficiency. That's around 3 Stromberg 97 carbs. (150 Cfm each)

I wanted to see the blower on the engine. The blower won't have that many carbs on it when I put it to use. Sure looks wild doesn't it?

[expavr]

"Sure looks wild doesn't it?" That it does....... Congratulations on your score..!!! What is the CR of the Edelbrock heads?

[Fordestes]

Get a hold of Ron Iskenderian and se what they say about that particular cam as to the special grind.

[Frank Miller]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Harleys get some of there sound from that but most from their unique way the cylinders fire one right after other. Almost like a radial engine would vs. A true twin.

They don't fire one after another but they are not 360 degrees apart. As said earlier the single pin will not allow this as when one piston is at the top on compression the other is almost at the top on exhaust.

[zzlegend]

I would roll that whole engine stand complete with the flathead, blower, and carbs, into my living room, just to look at it every day.
OOPS, never mind, I forgot I am married. You did good Jason.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

They don't fire one after another but they are not 360 degrees apart. As said earlier the single pin will not allow this as when one piston is at the top on compression the other is almost at the top on exhaust.

Frank

Thanks for the clarification. You are right. It's something like 315 degrees apart causing that pop-pop sound. Must have had a brain hiccup.

Tim

[Flathead]

Harley tried to get a patent on that not too long ago.

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by Flathead

Harley tried to get a patent on that not too long ago.

I think more like 12 yrs ago!!!!
Time flies when your old !!!

[scooder]

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That is some collection of stuff right there!!
Is that four boxes of tipped radius lifters? I see the slots in the front three packs?
Question for Pete here,
those lifters the "tipped" one's, you've stated in earlier posts that welding on the lifters is a big no no. And that the needed length should be added to the valve stem. I've seen in old books and magazines pics of these lifters, with that added on pad on the top. Were these pads welded on? Or some other process? Did these lifters have issues?
Look forward to you thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Martin.
Sorry for hijack, but I feel relevant.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by scooder

That is some collection of stuff right there!!
Is that four boxes of tipped radius lifters? I see the slots in the front three packs?
Question for Pete here,
those lifters the "tipped" one's, you've stated in earlier posts that welding on the lifters is a big no no. And that the needed length should be added to the valve stem. I've seen in old books and magazines pics of these lifters, with that added on pad on the top. Were these pads welded on? Or some other process? Did these lifters have issues?
Look forward to you thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Martin.
Sorry for hijack, but I feel relevant.

The buttons were silver soldered on. They were put on as a convience for back yard engine builders so they wouldn't have to do either that or weld the valve stems at home.
Overall they worked good. I did see a few that showed sagging on the top due to loss of heat treat during soldering process..
I wouldn't be afraid to run lifters with buttons. We have much better springs now.

[scooder]

Ah! Silver soulder, makes sence.
What were the pads made of?
Thanks for reply,
Martin.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by scooder

Ah! Silver soulder, makes sence.
What were the pads made of?
Thanks for reply,
Martin.

Not sure but a guess would 4130.

[scooder]

Thanks Pete,
Martin.

[Fullraceflathead]

Ed Iskendarians 404A Constant Acceleration Camshaft is actually a copy of a #2 Offy Grind which is actually a copy of a Miller Grind.
If you get a chance ask Ed himself and he will tell you the story like he told me.

[Fullraceflathead]

I run the 404A in my Dragster. I made the Radius Lifters from an old set of Hollow Johnson Lifters.
I actually show them and the Entire engine build up in the Video "Fullrace Flathead".

[dude]

Very good cam , need to watch spring pressure .The duel springs can give up #125 pressure ,hard on cam ware.

[40 Deluxe]

Finally! A flathead that may actually need zinc additive!!

[Flatout]

I believe Isky's 404 grinds are an adaptation of Ed Winfield's number 4 profile for Offenhauser 4-cylinder engines. Offenhauser engines used radius lifters.
Potvin called his version "Eliminator", and uses flat lifters.

[Newc]

Hi all; I see a Power Master starter there. They engage front to back, the opposite of a Ford stocker. So the ring gear bevel is for the stock type stater. Does the ring gear need to be flipped or rebeveled for the Power Master type?? Newc

[HotRodmicky]

Hi Jason , i built a 304 ci with a 404-a cam flathead and after 20k miles its still running!
Best cam i ever used .
Better than a potvin 425 eliminator.
I can compare as i built another 304 ci
With an eliminator cam .

Do you sell your spare radius lifters ?
I could use them
If so , drop me an pm

Michael

[Fullraceflathead]

Just a quick FYI Isky made the Radius Lifters from Original Ford Lifters.
There is enough material on Originals to do it. Be careful of lifters that may have been reground on their bottoms before making a new set of Radius Lifters.
I made mine from an old set of Johnson Adjustable's to have the ease of lash adjustment.

[Bored&Stroked]

Pete sometimes does sets of radius lifters for the 404-A . . . just ping him if you need a set.

[shansen43]

My boss has a flathead they just torn down and it has a set of lifters just like in this picture. He wants to know where a person could get a set of the pins/retainers for the lifters as well as other valve train parts.

Also on the cam it has Iskandarian Rack then 404 A. On the shaft there is a CWC but nothing else - where could I get information about the cam etc.

Thank you

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

In order to get the cam, I had to buy a few other things....



inside the engine

[rotorwrench]

The flatheads and sportsters were the only Harleys to use separate cams till the twin cam came out so that must be the pattern they used on that. Nearly all HDs use roller tappets. That type cam would create a lot of side pressure on the tappet no matter what type it is. A person likely would end up sleeving the tappet bores after running that cam for a while.

[Jason in TX]

You can still get the clips from Isky (I think). Call them: (310) 217-9232
http://www.iskycams.com/contact-us.html

There is a special tool to install them that I don't think you can get from isky anymore, but if your block is already drilled for the keepers, you don't need the special tool. You just hold the "staples" in there and bend the ends over.

Isky 404A was considered a full race cam. Usually used in dragsters. Some people say not streetable. Others have told me I'll be fine if I don't have too much spring pressure pushing on the lifters.

Originally Posted by shansen43

My boss has a flathead they just torn down and it has a set of lifters just like in this picture. He wants to know where a person could get a set of the pins/retainers for the lifters as well as other valve train parts.

Also on the cam it has Iskandarian Rack then 404 A. On the shaft there is a CWC but nothing else - where could I get information about the cam etc.

Thank you

[shansen43]

Thanks Jason.

I did call ISKY yesterday and was told to talk to Ron. This was 1960's stuff and the tech didn't know if they had any of that stuff anymore. He said I needed to talk to Ron Inskandarian so that is the next step.

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

You can still get the clips from Isky (I think). Call them: (310) 217-9232
http://www.iskycams.com/contact-us.html

There is a special tool to install them that I don't think you can get from isky anymore, but if your block is already drilled for the keepers, you don't need the special tool. You just hold the "staples" in there and bend the ends over.

Isky 404A was considered a full race cam. Usually used in dragsters. Some people say not streetable. Others have told me I'll be fine if I don't have too much spring pressure pushing on the lifters.

[Jason in TX]

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

So Isky had this or you found the jig?

[Jason in TX]

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I found the jig

[KiWinUS]

I have 2 of these cams an 8BA with lifters brand new , A real nice 59AB cam with a set of well used lifters from another404, also have a 404JR thats real nice for a v8/60 & well used 60 lifters from a different cam all in my cam "collection".
I to need the pins & were just going to make some as I have 2 new ones to measure what size wire. I also have the tools brand new that a friend made me copying them from a friends, they are as nice as originals or even better.
I would love a copy of those original instructions!
Have Flatty Fun!!
Cheers
Tony

[Ol' Ron]

T one time the lifter bores were broached with a slot, and the lifters had a pin that road in the slot to prevent rotation. I had one of the blocks, but it used the present staples. Interesting stories about the value of this cam. I ran one at Danbury, however, it was damaged when one of the lifters failed. This was an owner supplied engine and I replaced the cam with the 400jr. Over the years several engine builders tried this cam, but the performance, didn't justify the cost.

[Jason in TX]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

the performance, didn't justify the cost.

I would tend to agree Ron. I don't know that I would build this engine myself due to cost.

I acquired this engine already built this way from a man who recreated his engine that won him a 1958 World Series of Drag Racing record of 138 mph 10:28 for flathead roadsters.

He built the engine using some of the same parts from that original engine, but passed away before firing the engine. I hope to run the engine in my car and continue to tell his story.

[bruce lee]

Amazing. Good job on keeping his legacy going.

[Ol' Ron]

I agree with you here, I have only one suggestion, don't use the compound springs.

[Jason in TX]

I've heard a few people say ditch the compound springs. I know that Pete said to go with about 80 lbs on the seat.

I thought I read that these compound springs can be over 100 lbs.

However, the paperwork that came with the springs says they should be around 70 lbs on the seat.

[Jason in TX]

I completely agree that I want the least amount of spring pressure possible on these lifters and cam because I'll just be driving this engine, not racing it.

I also do have the Italmeccanica blower for this engine so I also don't want to float my valves.

I'll have to check the springs for sure.

[8CM]

Hi if you are still grinding i have a 8cm cam what can you do with that?? 1007b or potvin 3/8 its going in a 49 f100 .060 merc w. 350 holley 2 bbl... suggestions?? ive noticed the 8cm cam does pull prety good.... Rick

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by 8CM

Hi if you are still grinding i have a 8cm cam what can you do with that?? 1007b or potvin 3/8 its going in a 49 f100 .060 merc w. 350 holley 2 bbl... suggestions?? ive noticed the 8cm cam does pull prety good.... Rick

Not sure who this post is too . . . maybe Pete1? If so, contact Pete - you'll see him posting on this thread up above. I would recommend the 1007B - the 3/8 isn't needed for a smaller displacement engine like yours. You'll like the 1007B - great grind.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I agree with you here, I have only one suggestion, don't use the compound springs.

The double springs actually don't gain you anything - and they're a pain in the butt to install. Buy the single Isky 185G springs and install them with about 75 - 80 lbs on the seat. If you're not going to rev it high (like race it) and keep the RPM below 5000, you can probably get away with 70 lbs. That blower won't make a lot of boost anyway - probably 6 - 8 lbs at best.

[Bored&Stroked]

Also, the blower should be gone through, may need new bearings, probably needs seals for sure, etc.. You should contact Ron SanGiovanni (Ronnie Roadster) - he is on this site, he might be able to do it for you (if he has time - as he's really busy building a Bonneville car at the moment).

[Ol' Ron]

B&S Has the right anser here. For street, keep the revs below 5k and your golden. Those Scot blowers might need ritior seals, and that gets expensive.

[Jason in TX]

When the group says the double springs are a pain in the butt to install, I think "mine are already installed. It's going to be a pain in the butt to uninstall them. haha

I will most likely fire it just like it is on the test stand with the HC magneto and Evans 4x2 to make the dream of what he was building but never got to see happen.

Then I can pull the heads and do the 185G spring swap and maybe put some rarer heads on it before it goes in the 34 Three window.

I've already purchased all the bearings, seals, new exact reproduction rear grease caps and even metric gears for inside if needed. Had to source most of it from eirope as this is metric. Different than the new H&H stuff. I already have all the parts. I'll be sure to go through it first.

[bruce lee]

On a side note: do those blowers have a oil feed from motor? Or do they have a grease jerk? How do they stay lubed up? Sorry just want to learn something new today. As gene says everyday is a school day.

[bruce lee]

Oops I guess I should of looked harder at the pictures. I see a jerk.

[Jason in TX]

The front snout area is full of oil with a seal on the nose where the pulley is and inside on the front of the two shafts before getting into the rotor area. The back originally had seals on the two shafts, shins and greased bearings but you can put sealed bearings in them now, and keep the old look. I read one article that someone removed the grease zero side of the sealed bearings so you could grease them but the grease not go out the other side.

The gears on the rotor shafts are drilled and pinned. You have to time the rotors or they will interfere with each other.

[naughtt]

Resurrecting this thread in the hope of a bit more info. I’m in England but recently acquired an Isky 404a cam, new old stock together with the relevant double springs, lifters, staples ect. ( no jig but can make that). My engine is a French block running 4 1/4 crank, 3 3/8 pistons and currently a 400 jr cam. All running in a belly tank that only gets to play on Pendine sands and will do a bit of drags. It’s full race.
My question if any one can help is are the double springs worth using, what spring pressure is best, and advice on grinding each tip on the lifters and what to set it at cold?
If I were to have my Johnson adjustable lifters ground would they need re hardening?
Thanks in advance guys,

Brett.

[Bored&Stroked]

I've checked the double springs against the Isky 185-G springs and the 185-G springs are actually better. I have no idea as to why Ed created the dual-spring package . . . other than to claim it was better and as part of the overall marketing of the 404-A. You should be fine with about 80 lbs on the seat - which is easy to obtain with the 185-G springs. I'm running 185-G springs on my flathead roller cam with 100 lbs on the seat (and heavy roller lifters) - have had the engine over 6200 RPM and never floated a valve . . . and my intakes are 1.72". For a full-on race engine, you might consider light titanium valves anyway (that is what I'd do).

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by Newc

Hi all; I see a Power Master starter there. They engage front to back, the opposite of a Ford stocker. So the ring gear bevel is for the stock type stater. Does the ring gear need to be flipped or rebeveled for the Power Master type?? Newc

I'm hoping to see an answer on this too as I have the same (uninstalled ) starter. Thanks.

[Pete]

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Originally Posted by naughtt

Resurrecting this thread in the hope of a bit more info. I’m in England but recently acquired an Isky 404a cam, new old stock together with the relevant double springs, lifters, staples ect. ( no jig but can make that). My engine is a French block running 4 1/4 crank, 3 3/8 pistons and currently a 400 jr cam. All running in a belly tank that only gets to play on Pendine sands and will do a bit of drags. It’s full race.
My question if any one can help is are the double springs worth using, what spring pressure is best, and advice on grinding each tip on the lifters and what to set it at cold?
If I were to have my Johnson adjustable lifters ground would they need re hardening?
Thanks in advance guys,

Brett.

Adjustable, so called Johnson lifters may need re-heat treating, depending on when and where they were made. This should be done in an inert gas atmosphere to eliminate any scale.

You will have to run the Isky radius lifters with the 404A cam.

You NEVER grind the lifter to adjust the clearance.
If you do not have a valve stem grinding attachment on your valve grinder, They can be machined very easily in a lathe.

Listen to Bored & Stroked on the spring info.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

I'm hoping to see an answer on this too as I have the same (uninstalled ) starter. Thanks.

No, the PM starter gear has a bevel that lets it work with the ring gear as-is.


Now back to camshaft discussion.....

[naughtt]

Thanks for the input and advice so far guys.
Appreciate it.