Do you think a sleeve will fix this?

[Mart]

I'm working on my newly acquired 59 Flatty. The bores are quite bad so I am going to sleeve all of them. I'm on the 4th bore and noticed a crack. It runs from the bottom of the cylinder up to about 1-1/2" from the top.

So if I carry on and fit the sleeve, do you think it will cause problems? I could foresee applying some sort of leak fix to the coolant. Anybody got experience of such a crack?

On the Crusty Flatty one cylinder did have a spot breakthrough into the water jacket and it doesn't seem to have caused a problem.

If I do proceed to fit a liner I would probably bore no more than .060 and would run the radiator either non pressurised or at most 4lbs.

What do you think? The crack looks worse because iron dust has stuck to it. In the second pic I have wiped it off at the bottom.

Mart.

[Mart]

The sickener is I did this when knocking the piston out. I just checked the footage. There is no crack, then while knocking the piston there is a noise and straight away afterwards the crack can be seen.

Damn damn damn.

Mart.

[petehoovie]

[ford38v8]

Mart, I would think no method or product could seal that crack in that location. You've got expansion/contraction to beat the band right there, and no finger in the dike can plug it. But then, someone's probably done it, so what do I know?

[TitusDH]

That is a wide crack. The cylinder wall might have lost most of it’s rigdity and may on longer hold a sleeve. Have a go at it. And some locktite, I guess.

[TitusDH]

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Some People melt a large hole in the piston head in order it can give some while whacking it out.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

The sickener is I did this when knocking the piston out. I just checked the footage. There is no crack, then while knocking the piston there is a noise and straight away afterwards the crack can be seen.

Damn damn damn.

Mart.

It's easy to do. Shouldn't drive a piston out if it is tight. You can use a holesaw to take the center of the piston out and release pressure on the cylinder walls.

[cadillac512]

Mart, when we sleeve a block that has a broken-out piece that goes to water (like when an errant rod gets loose) or has cracks like you see there, we use this:
https://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/k...hoCcAsQAvD_BwE


It's the best we've found,and does a good job. Of course stop drilling cracks and possibly pinning the end to reduce the gap of a wide crack is recommended,but we have good results installing sleeves with Fluid Weld.


Terry

[Mr 42]

Id try brazing the crack, then do the boring and sleeving.
And start it up with Bars leak in the Coolant.

[Kube]

Mart, I hate to say it but my advice is to trash this block and cut your loss. I would not take the chance with it.
To be cracked that bad makes me think what other issues lurk and may show their ugly face(s) after all the machining and assembly has been done.

[Terry,OH]

check out some of the thick wall sleeves. They can be sealed so there is no water seepage. I have seen holes as big as a walnut in a bore repaired.

[rotorwrench]

I've heard of engines being bored out till it opened to the water jacket. Folks were trying to get enough out of there to install sleeves for a larger bore but still have reliable cylinder wall thickness on an old 1937 21-stud block. They did all 8 cylinders that way but they left a step at the bottom for a sleeve seat. They used JB-weld epoxy at the top & bottom to help seal it up and keep the deck a bit more stable. The 221 was made into a 255 by use of a modified 8CM crankshaft. They put it in a 1935 coupe & ran the Great American Race with it and made it all the way.

The only maybe is whether the cylinder wall on your block was distorted to any major degree and whether the crack goes all the way to the bottom or not. A person could stop drill it or radius out the lower end of the crack but you would need the step down at the bottom to be intact. The deck also needs to be intact.

[Ronnie]

A good shop can fix that with a sleeve. I would give the rest of the block thorough inspection before proceeding.



R

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

check out some of the thick wall sleeves. They can be sealed so there is no water seepage. I have seen holes as big as a walnut in a bore repaired.

I would look into this as well.

[RalphM]

I’ve got a nice 8BA block that was given to me, only the previous owner was beating out pistons and knocked a baseball sized hole in one of the cylinders!

[JSeery]

You have a boring bar don't you? All you would be out is the price of the sleeve.

[Mart]

Thanks for all the replies, fellas.

I'll have a closer look to see what the situation is at the bottom of the bore. that one piston did not match the others and that one cylinder was an overbore. The others on that side were standard. I was able to knock the heads off the others and they came out relatively easy, but that one fought me and I couldn't get the head fully off. The head must have swollen oversize and broke out the bore as I drove it downwards.

Lesson learnt. FOLLOW THE ADVICE ON THE BARN!

Humbled.

Mart.

[Mart]

I just had a good look and the crack stops about 1/4" up from the bottom of the step I have left for the liner to seat on. It does not carry on to the crank case area.



You can see the boring bar at the top of the bore.

Mart.

[gwrskien]

Hello,

on a other forum these guys bore out the whole cylinder and put in new thick sleeves with a shelve at the bootom for it to sit on..is this a possible way to go?

I hope someone here says "yes i have done it" because i have a block with circular cracks just below the deck, 15-20mm down the bore and i fear its scrap..

[big job]

thick wall sleeves with the special '0' rings you now have a 'wet sleeve' google wet sleeves - many engines use those just an idea

[flatrod]

We have sleeved many blocks with similar cracks. As long as the crack does not go all the way to the bottom seating area, or out the top, I would go for it. We would use Loctite sleeve sealer on that one and usually shoot for .0025 press. Only one that I know of in 30 years seeped.

[gwrskien]

Can you use 1/8" thick wall sleeves, or do you need thicker walls if you onely have a good press fit on the top and bottom? It seems to me that the "wet" part of the cylinder would offer little support because of the crack. i think i can use same method on my block, so any info would be great. Thank`s

[Mart]

Ok guys, thanks for all the interest.

I've just come in from the garage.

I've brazed it up. I figure if it doesn't hold completely along the crack it's still better than the open crack all the way up.

I'll finish the bore for the liner later and see how it looks. I'm not building a racing engine, just something that will putt about. The sleeves are .125 wall. Mellings.

Fingers crossed lads, lets see where this journey takes me.

Mart.

[JSeery]

Mart, you did drill the ends of the crack before you brazed it?

[Mart]

Not exactly. I attacked it with a die grinder and went through at or near both ends.

[fordy_nine]

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Thanks for sticking with it Mart. Your effort will be an eye opener to us all. We sure do appreciate your videos. Maybe we can all benefit from your "going where no one has ventured before"......Bob L

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

Not exactly. I attacked it with a die grinder and went through at or near both ends.

They really needed to be drilled, that is about the only way to stop a crack from progressing. Be interesting to see how it turns out. Might work just fine!

[Aarongriffey]

What is a 59 Flatty?

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Aarongriffey

What is a 59 Flatty?

A 59 series flathead Ford engine and/or engine block.

From a post by Nate Cooper:

The 59 series blocks had better quality casting control than earlier blocks. This decreased the number of blocks with excessive core shifts. The following boring limitations are what I use for engines intended for the street. The 59 series blocks came in ‘46-’48 Ford and Merc’s. There aren’t any differences between Ford and Merc blocks during these years. All came with replaceable hard valve seats.

There were eight different engine designations to my limited knowledge: 59, 59A, 59AB, 59L, 59X, 59Y, 59Z, and 59ERP. The 59, 59A, and 59AB usually had no factory relief. These are the softest castings of the 59 series blocks. These will almost always bore to 3-3/8″ and still have adequate wall thickness left for street use. These were the most common blocks produced….. which is why they’re also the most common blocks still around today. The raised 59 number and letter (if used) are located on the top of the bell housing.

Not sure the 46-48 year span is totally correct, I have a 59ab that came out of a 49 Truck.

[RKS.PA]

I'm really ignorant here on block cracks....had the machine shop drill, pin, weld, and sleeve the only cracked block I've owned...so far!!


And not that it really matters, but I can't help wondering if that weakness in Mart's cylinder was there from the start and pounding the piston out brought it out through the bore? Would have thought the cylinder wall would have had more solid "meat" in it given the stress that goes on in that part of an operating engine. Should have been able to withstand pounding out a part that normally goes up and down!!

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by JSeery

A 59 series flathead Ford engine and/or engine block.

From a post by Nate Cooper:

The 59 series blocks had better quality casting control than earlier blocks. This decreased the number of blocks with excessive core shifts. The following boring limitations are what I use for engines intended for the street. The 59 series blocks came in ‘46-’48 Ford and Merc’s. There aren’t any differences between Ford and Merc blocks during these years. All came with replaceable hard valve seats.

There were eight different engine designations to my limited knowledge: 59, 59A, 59AB, 59L, 59X, 59Y, 59Z, and 59ERP. The 59, 59A, and 59AB usually had no factory relief. These are the softest castings of the 59 series blocks. These will almost always bore to 3-3/8″ and still have adequate wall thickness left for street use. These were the most common blocks produced….. which is why they’re also the most common blocks still around today. The raised 59 number and letter (if used) are located on the top of the bell housing.

Not sure the 46-48 year span is totally correct, I have a 59ab that came out of a 49 Truck.

Doubt that that would have been original as Ford used the 8BA blocks starting in 1948.

[Zeke3]

Originally Posted by Mart

I'm not building a racing engine, just something that will putt about.

Right, look for this engine at the Prescott Hill Climb or on the beach next year.

[rotorwrench]

Some of that 59 series info is mixed with wives tales. Casting technology didn't change much before, during, or after the war when it comes to the Ford V8 engines. Ford cast 239 V8 engines during the war too for the T-16 carrier so they likely updated the cores a bit for the 59 series right after that. They also made the 41A 221 block but many of them also have the 59 on the back bell. I don't think anyone has ever proven a change in cast iron formula. As far as I know the 8BA blocks had the same formula. Nodular cast iron came after the 8BA era.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by RKS.PA

...I can't help wondering if that weakness in Mart's cylinder was there from the start and pounding the piston out brought it out through the bore? Would have thought the cylinder wall would have had more solid "meat" in it given the stress that goes on in that part of an operating engine. Should have been able to withstand pounding out a part that normally goes up and down!!

If you do some research on block disassemble, there are a lot of warnings about not attempting to knock pistons out that are stuck and how easy it is to crack a cylinder wall. That's why it is recommended to hole saw the center of the piston out to relieve pressure before attempting to remove them (when they are stuck, not normal loose ones).

[RKS.PA]

Originally Posted by JSeery

If you do some research on block disassemble, there are a lot of warnings about not attempting to knock pistons out that are stuck and how easy it is to crack a cylinder wall. That's why it is recommended to hole saw the center of the piston out to relieve pressure before attempting to remove them (when they are stuck, not normal loose ones).

I remember your saying use a hole saw above, Jerry. And good advice on the research....hard not to after following this post. I sure don't want to replicate Mart's experience and appreciate the difference between pistons that are stuck and those that aren't. Would this be applicable to all blocks, not just flatheads?

Thanks very much!!