New Block thread on H.A.M.B.

[Bob Johnson]

The new block thread on HAMB is getting real interesting. Tod states that he has had a block poured and is preparing to make more. He expects to have completed block later this year. I am not a member of HAMB so I can not post over there. Perhaps someone here who is a HAMB member can get Tod to post some info here. See link below to get to the HAMB thread about the new blocks.


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=616056

[Franchise_24]

It's a pretty exciting thread and very good for the hobby.

[Turkey Broth Trading]

I saw the block at the foundry last week and Henry himself would have been proud.

[1930artdeco]

Done

Mike

[Tod]

OK, here I am. Wasn't really expecting the massive reception, but it's good to know there is interest. Fire away boys.

Tod

[Skibb]

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Welcome Tod. Am I ever happy that you are creating, manufacturing new blocks for Model A Fords. I'm not smart enough to have questions but look forward to discovering everything about your new product. Maybe not today but within the year you'll well known on the Model A Highway.

[Crazydaddyo]

There is another thread here on the barn with more info and a picture.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135011

[Will Ziegler in LI NY]

Tod, welcome aboard. I like what I saw over on the hamb. Maybe you could give us a little bit of background info on yourself and post a couple pictures here for all of the A folks. Please keep us posted on your progress. Thanks for being an innovator and helping the hobby!

[Model A Man]

I hAve a ? Tod how much will a short block and or a long block cost when done . I need two. Thanks

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Model A Man

I hAve a ? Tod how much will a short block and or a long block cost when done . I need two. Thanks

Right now, I'm only going to produce blocks. I will start looking into this request with a builder and see what he thinks.

Tod

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Will Ziegler in LI NY

Tod, welcome aboard. I like what I saw over on the hamb. Maybe you could give us a little bit of background info on yourself and post a couple pictures here for all of the A folks. Please keep us posted on your progress. Thanks for being an innovator and helping the hobby!

My background is in the casting industry. 37 years. Almost every type of metal, casting process, pattern kind, CAD design, 3D CNC, machining programming, CNC repair, and a lot of other boring stuff. Aside from technical mathematics, my 6 years of university at 4 schools in 2 states is not worth talking about when it comes to my job. I have owned my own pattern shop/machine shop/ and at one time foundry for 23 years.

I will try to post some more pictures and maybe a video on Youtube of the first pour.

Tod

[Tom Wesenberg]

Will the new block be cast from the same formula as the original block?
Or is there even a better mixture to use?

I've never done any casting, but it sure looks like an interesting thing to learn.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tod

My background is in the casting industry. 37 years. Almost every type of metal, casting process, pattern kind, CAD design, 3D CNC, machining programming, CNC repair, and a lot of other boring stuff. Aside from technical mathematics, my 6 years of university at 4 schools in 2 states is not worth talking about when it comes to my job. I have owned my own pattern shop/machine shop/ and at one time foundry for 23 years.

I will try to post some more pictures and maybe a video on Youtube of the first pour.

Tod

Tod, I watch this with eagerness. I would like to get in on the ground floor and help you sell as many as possible. This is one part that is not being reproduced yet accurately but, needs to be.

[Mitch//pa]

i thought i read that the blocks were going to be sold thru snyders but i am not positive.

[Tod]

James and Mitch, I like Snyder's worldwide network as a foundation but due to secondary machining that will likely be based on a wide variety of customer needs, I may have to have a few strategically placed builders/finish machinists to meet market demand.

I'm still trying to get a feel for how many of these I need to make for a first run. Individuals are saying they want 1, or, 2, or 3, and I have not added that up yet, and it is also just talk so far. All that can happen until I make more samples and machine some is talk. But that is how we will determine demand. You know, am I going to sell a hundred of these or 2-3 hundred? A thousand? I don't know. I don't know how many Snyder can sell. Any help selling them is obviously welcome. Snyder's has been instrumental in helping my business along so I owe them my loyalty first.

Tod

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Will the new block be cast from the same formula as the original block?
Or is there even a better mixture to use?

I've never done any casting, but it sure looks like an interesting thing to learn.

The blocks are cast with the same alloy as my 351 Clevelands. They make all kinds of power, so I think it will be fine for these blocks. The aluminum will be 356 T6 with ductile sleeves, but that is secondary to the stock iron version.

Tod

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tod

James and Mitch, I like Snyder's worldwide network as a foundation but due to secondary machining that will likely be based on a wide variety of customer needs, I may have to have a few strategically placed builders/finish machinists to meet market demand.

I'm still trying to get a feel for how many of these I need to make for a first run. Individuals are saying they want 1, or, 2, or 3, and I have not added that up yet, and it is also just talk so far. All that can happen until I make more samples and machine some is talk. But that is how we will determine demand. You know, am I going to sell a hundred of these or 2-3 hundred? A thousand? I don't know. I don't know how many Snyder can sell. Any help selling them is obviously welcome. Snyder's has been instrumental in helping my business along so I owe them my loyalty first.

Tod

thanks tod for getting back
there is lots of interest in this endeavor good luck

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, here I am. Wasn't really expecting the massive reception, but it's good to know there is interest. Fire away boys.

Tod

Hi Tod and welcome to FB. I too am glad you are coming with personal interaction with us. I guess my question is "why"? Looking at it from both an economics standpoint and a 'need' basis, what is your reasoning behind producing this?


From my perspective and experience, the supply of good cylinder case (block) cores is seemingly out there for future rebuilds providing someone is willing to work at getting them. Most professional engine rebuilders I know already have a handful of extra cores, so are they the ones asking for a new block? Now I agree that there are a few blocks (--by percentages) that have deteriorated cooling passages where replacement is best however I cannot help but ponder the thought that the perceived value when it comes time for someone to actually open their wallet to pay for this new block is possibly going to be disappointing. I hope I am wrong for your sake!!


To the group as a whole, I realize this is going to come across as me being a naysayer yet as I look at other items that have come --and now are gone, it does cause the thought of concern. A great example of this is the recent 'out-of-production' Burlington crankshaft where Chris did all the right things to create a nice product that would be considered a better engineered part over the original offering. The buzz was always how much this would improve the drivability of the Model-A and many folks seemingly offered great enthusiasm how they would buy one if offered, ....yet Chris stopped manufacturing simply because of lack of sales and ROI. Also, do we remember a few years ago where a newly manufactured Model-A transmission complete with a new case was offered yet look at the sales there too. Also consider how the new Stipe shocks are out of production now, and think about how the Brumfield was the head of choice until the market had an offering of multiple head manufacturers, ...and one went by the wayside. While I have no idea on the status of the Terry Burtz engine, it sure seems plausible to me that if there are two cylinder case manufacturers, the amount of customers who actually pay the money would be so few for each that the ROI is likely to create a financial hardship where it might follow in the same footsteps as Burlington, Stipe, Brumfield, et/al. So what am I missing?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Hi Tod and welcome to FB. I too am glad you are coming with personal interaction with us. I guess my question is "why"? Looking at it from both an economics standpoint and a 'need' basis, what is your reasoning behind producing this?


From my perspective and experience, the supply of good cylinder case (block) cores is seemingly out there for future rebuilds providing someone is willing to work at getting them. Most professional engine rebuilders I know already have a handful of extra cores, so are they the ones asking for a new block? Now I agree that there are a few blocks (--by percentages) that have deteriorated cooling passages where replacement is best however I cannot help but ponder the thought that the perceived value when it comes time for someone to actually open their wallet to pay for this new block is possibly going to be disappointing. I hope I am wrong for your sake!!


To the group as a whole, I realize this is going to come across as me being a naysayer yet as I look at other items that have come --and now are gone, it does cause the thought of concern. A great example of this is the recent 'out-of-production' Burlington crankshaft where Chris did all the right things to create a nice product that would be considered a better engineered part over the original offering. The buzz was always how much this would improve the drivability of the Model-A and many folks seemingly offered great enthusiasm how they would buy one if offered, ....yet Chris stopped manufacturing simply because of lack of sales and ROI. Also, do we remember a few years ago where a newly manufactured Model-A transmission complete with a new case was offered yet look at the sales there too. Also consider how the new Stipe shocks are out of production now, and think about how the Brumfield was the head of choice until the market had an offering of multiple head manufacturers, ...and one went by the wayside. While I have no idea on the status of the Terry Burtz engine, it sure seems plausible to me that if there are two cylinder case manufacturers, the amount of customers who actually pay the money would be so few for each that the ROI is likely to create a financial hardship where it might follow in the same footsteps as Burlington, Stipe, Brumfield, et/al. So what am I missing?

OK, let's see if I can summarize:

1) There are plenty of cores available.
2) Most builders have some cores so they aren't interested in a new block.
3) Other stopped or failed parts implies the need for no new blocks (Burtz included).
4) I can't possibly make this worth my while.
5) You definitely have no use for one of my blocks.

Seems you could have just stated #5 and left it at that.

Tod

[kelley's restoration]

I want an aluminum one BAD
speedster baby
dragster
I have been planning a fed with a model a engine for a loooong time
as far as actually drilling out the bolts to see how much lighter I could make a model a engine
now with the option of a aluminum block (not a Donavon) I am giddy with excitement
tk

[Crazydaddyo]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, let's see if I can summarize:

1) There are plenty of cores available.
2) Most builders have some cores so they aren't interested in a new block.
3) Other stopped or failed parts implies the need for no new blocks (Burtz included).
4) I can't possibly make this worth my while.
5) You definitely have no use for one of my blocks.

Seems you could have just stated #5 and left it at that.

Tod

Well played!!!!!
Great attitude. Stock model A purists are notorious for tripping over dollars to save pennies.

Don't let this dissuade you from your pursuit. The improvements you are incorporating is benefit enough.


.

[Crazydaddyo]

Originally Posted by kelley's restoration

I want an aluminum one BAD
speedster baby
dragster
I have been planning a fed with a model a engine for a loooong time
as far as actually drilling out the bolts to see how much lighter I could make a model a engine
now with the option of a aluminum block (not a Donavon) I am giddy with excitement
tk

Me too !!!!!!!!

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, let's see if I can summarize:

1) There are plenty of cores available.
2) Most builders have some cores so they aren't interested in a new block.
3) Other stopped or failed parts implies the need for no new blocks (Burtz included).
4) I can't possibly make this worth my while.
5) You definitely have no use for one of my blocks.

Seems you could have just stated #5 and left it at that.

Tod

Tod,

As you well know, "You can't please everybody" stay the course, You win!!

BTW, just mention inserts and babbit and you will see the love........

Carry on, I am up for alum casting, not machined though. I have things to do and the stock holes interfere.....

John

[Tod]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

Tod,

As you well know, "You can't please everybody" stay the course, You win!!

BTW, just mention inserts and babbit and you will see the love........

Carry on, I am up for alum casting, not machined though. I have things to do and the stock holes interfere.....

John

John,

Email me, and we can discuss the aluminum block.

Tod

[mshmodela]

Clearly, at some point there will not be enough quality blocks (repairable at least) and new blocks needed. It is good to know a few out there willing to reverse engineer the blocks. Living near what was a massive Ford casting plant in Cleveland, which was closed and the scrap sold to China, the Art of Casting is dying. Thanks to the few, who stand the heat to keep it somewhat alive.

[Tod]

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Originally Posted by mshmodela

Clearly, at some point there will not be enough quality blocks (repairable at least) and new blocks needed. It is good to know a few out there willing to reverse engineer the blocks. Living near what was a massive Ford casting plant in Cleveland, which was closed and the scrap sold to China, the Art of Casting is dying. Thanks to the few, who stand the heat to keep it somewhat alive.

Yep. You've got to be ahead of the curve. I've been in the old Ford foundry and it was pretty impressive. The plant manager at the time is a friend of my iron foundry's owner, Corey. We went there when I was sampling my second FE project.

We are just down the road from you in Youngstown.

Tod

[Model A Man]

I haven't had any luck with rebuilt motors, so I am hoping the price for the new motors will be able to be kept at reasonable price. I have been holding off from installing a more modern four or six cylinders in my model A's in hope that either Terry's or Todd's motors will be available soon.

[dumb person]

Looks like i will be stuck with my model A a long long time. Nice to know someone is making replacement blocks. Maybe Snyders will have one on the shelf in 20 years or however long it takes for me to buy one. If the new transmission rumor is true someone wealthy could almost build a model A from new parts!

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by M2M

I'm scratching my head trying to understand where the negative comment/s or negative tone is in Brent post. Brent welcomes Tod to the forum then asks Tod why he's decided to start making the item. That was negative? Brent then states that he fears there may not be enough demand for Todd's product, then goes on to list a number of good products that have gone out of production.

I would ask the same question. What's wrong with some reasonable negative questions or just playing the devils advocate? I didn't see anything in Brent's comment to provoke the smart azz answer Tod made. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and look like a fool that to open it and remove all doubt. Other comments follow the same line. I am not trying to be curt but, there is nothing wrong with civil discussion on a topic without insulting comments.
As for Tod's motive for pursuing this, why not. Ford did then and even now by building many failed engines and made great strides in development of motor technology by experimentation and successes. The way I see it, it is his time and money, let him use it as he sees fit.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Model A Man

I haven't had any luck with rebuilt motors, so I am hoping the price for the new motors will be able to be kept at reasonable price. I have been holding off from installing a more modern four or six cylinders in my model A's in hope that either Terry's or Todd's motors will be available soon.

What makes you think a new block will make any of the builders you have used be a better builder? If you put lipstick on a pig it still will be a pig.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I would ask the same question. What's wrong with some reasonable negative questions or just playing the devils advocate? I didn't see anything in Brent's comment to provoke the smart azz answer Tod made. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and look like a fool that to open it and remove all doubt. Other comments follow the same line. I am not trying to be curt but, there is nothing wrong with civil discussion on a topic without insulting comments.

Why the need to be negative at all? You both appear to be friends, you both do engines....makes sense you would defend him....

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

Why the need to be negative at all? You both appear to be friends, you both do engines....makes sense you would defend him....

I am not defending any one person, just the right to have a civil discussion with both sides represented without smart alec responses. I don't even take offense to your implication that I am defending just Brent. if you look closely, you will see I defended Tod's right to spend his money and time as he sees fit.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I am not defending any one person, just the right to have a civil discussion with both sides represented without smart alec responses. I don't even take offense to your implication that I am defending just Brent. if you look closely, you will see I defended Tod's right to spend his money and time as he sees fit.

I guess the whole thing is just unfortunate because now Tod feels he can't talk about his project here and stated in his other thread he will only provide updates on the HAMB, and through PMs or his email.

[James Rogers]

I guess that is also his right. The saying is "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

BTW, I build engines, I do my wife!

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

BTW, I build engines, I do my wife!

Uhhh.........congrats? LOL

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by M2M

I'm scratching my head trying to understand where the negative comment/s or negative tone is in Brent post. Brent welcomes Tod to the forum then asks Tod why he's decided to start making the item. That was negative? Brent then states that he fears there may not be enough demand for Todd's product, then goes on to list a number of good products that have gone out of production.

Ah, the fine art of debate. In a college debate there are strict rules about presenting information and it is judged impartially. A message board is more like a political debate- the rules are off and judgement is by many who have an agenda. Not everyone is here to weigh facts without opinion.

[Hitchhiker]

You guys do realize that this "new" block is an improved design, with provisions for pressure oiling and other similar advancements.

...Stuff that a lot of banger guys spend considerable time and money modifying originals to achieve the same results.

I definitely see a market for that...

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

You guys do realize that this "new" block is an improved design, with provisions for pressure oiling and other similar advancements.

...Stuff that a lot of banger guys spend considerable time and money modifying originals to achieve the same results.

I definitely see a market for that...

Not yet the first block are pretty much like stock (Tods engines) he says it's easy to make changes to create almost custom blocks.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

I guess the whole thing is just unfortunate because now Tod feels he can't talk about his project here and stated in his other thread he will only provide updates on the HAMB, and through PMs or his email.

I don't see it that way at all, did he tell you that was the reason?

There two identical threads here on the barn "New Block thread on H.A.M.B." and "New Block cast in OHIO." There is a thread 6 pages long on HAMB. It just stands to reason that placing comments and answering questions in one place that started it all, instead of three is easier.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Crazydaddyo

Well played!!!!!
Great attitude. Stock model A purists are notorious for tripping over dollars to save pennies.

Don't let this dissuade you from your pursuit. The improvements you are incorporating is benefit enough.


.

X TWO !!
Well said and I would like to add to this....A LOT, but will bite the tongue.
Tod, FULL STEAM AHEAD AND DAMN THE TORPEDOES !!!!!!
You do not and should not have to explain WHY you do anything and what the heck is that about anyway ! I hope that you are taking notice and making a list..kinda like the white house does,eh

[Hitchhiker]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Not yet the first block are pretty much like stock (Tods engines) he says it's easy to make changes to create almost custom blocks.

this is a copy and paste from his first post on the subject...just what I was going on.


Hello gentlemen,

I'm Tod Buttermore, and new to this forum. As you can see I have a new Model A block underway, which I hope to have sample cast this fall or winter. I don't have alot of time to work on it since I machine parts for Snyder's Antique Auto Parts all day everyday. But after pecking away at it here and there I am finally getting near to casting a sample. Hopefully this will be a viable option to old and repaired original blocks. This block will have a pressurized oiling system and will accept stock sytled parts for final assembly.

I hope to sell them through Snyder's, mainly. As they are not yet ready for retail, please do not contact Snyder's for any details.

Tod Buttermore

[KR500]

Tod, Congrats on the endeavor. Few realize in this country the advances we have made in the manufacturing processes. Autocad rather than high school failing drafting students has made it possible to draw lines and circles all the same and legible. Solidworks for 3D capabilities. CNC, Turning centers, EDM, WEDM, robotic welding have all enhanced the ability to create product without all the huge runs of parts needednto make the stuff profitably. If my choice were between a new cast block and rebuilding an 80 year old casting, I'd choose new. I have been told that engine castings were at one time placed outdoors for a year for seasoning hoping to give the casting a chance for any stress problems. Is it still true? Good luck with your project and smooth sailing on any future challenges. In this country I don't know how we let so much of our guarded manufacturing knowledge sneak out, but globalization must have limitations.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker

this is a copy and paste from his first post on the subject...just what I was going on.


Hello gentlemen,

I'm Tod Buttermore, and new to this forum. As you can see I have a new Model A block underway, which I hope to have sample cast this fall or winter. I don't have alot of time to work on it since I machine parts for Snyder's Antique Auto Parts all day everyday. But after pecking away at it here and there I am finally getting near to casting a sample. Hopefully this will be a viable option to old and repaired original blocks. This block will have a pressurized oiling system and will accept stock sytled parts for final assembly.

I hope to sell them through Snyder's, mainly. As they are not yet ready for retail, please do not contact Snyder's for any details.

Tod Buttermore

Not a problem with me. There was talk of different bearing sizes, pins for insert placement, 5 bearing surfaces, cast in aluminum, and the like. Cast for pressurization is not a big deal nor would it even be the reason for rejection buy even the most virulent purist.

I guess I just missed the point that Tod speaks to many variations that are easily made once the basic configuration gets the bugs out. With only one pour he seems to me to be light years ahead of the other block. But I confess to knowing nothing about foundry work.

As a Model A purist I will go on public record that if the exterior looked like an original and with necessity/funds available I would not hesitate to buy one no matter what was done inside.

[rusty12]

Tod- This is a great project. Don't listen to the "nay sayers". Most of them form opinions because they didn't think of it themselves, nor have the knowledge or means to do it themselves. Please feel welcomed here and keep posted. Thanks again for helping advance the hobby.

[Tod]

I tried to PM a few of you but my messages were lost because it said I was not logged in. But I sure was logged in, to read a couple of PMs to me. So, I 'll have to try it again some time. I appreciate the "encouragement" on both forums, PMs, and emails. With the block sitting in one of my vertical CNCs being cut on you better believe nobody is going to dissuade me. I'll send pics to those of you who are discussing things with me privately.

Tod

[Tom Wesenberg]

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I was wondering with a new raw casting, how do you decide what surface is the first to be machined to form the basis for all the rest of the machine work?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I was wondering with a new raw casting, how do you decide what surface is the first to be machined to form the basis for all the rest of the machine work?

Tom,

I sent you a PM about that.

Tod

[zzlegend]

Tod, you are a positive influence to the Model A community. Good luck and looking forward to your progress.

[Mike V. Florida]

There is a poll up on HAMB for this engine to see where he should start production.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=872993

[ALAN BENNETT]

Originally Posted by Tod

OK, here I am. Wasn't really expecting the massive reception, but it's good to know there is interest. Fire away boys.

Tod

I cannot wait to buy one of the stock blocks for the Model A or whatever you build!!!!!!
ALAN BENNETT

[ALAN BENNETT]

Alan bennett

[bambooboy]

as many have problems with cooling,will the alum block be an improvement on the original? if Tod's smart he will go back to the Hamb.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by bambooboy

as many have problems with cooling,will the alum block be an improvement on the original? if Tod's smart he will go back to the Hamb.

I still post on the HAM.


Tod

[Synchro909]

I congratulate Todd on this venture and wish him the best with it. I have been told that the best cast iron to use when making an engine block is an old engine block. They have been through the hot/cold cycle many times and that, I’m told causes the granular structure of the metal to change for the better. If all of that is true, there will be no shortage of scrap Model A blocks with a new purpose - feedstock for Todd’s new ones.
I’m no metallurgist and only have what I have been told to go on. The above may be all B S I have been told, hence this proviso but if true, don’t throw those old blocks away. Who knows, the numbers as well as the metal might be recycleable.

[ALAN BENNETT]

Tod,
Do you have any idea how much money it will be for a brand new block for my 31 Town Sedan?????ALAN BENNETT [email protected]