No reverse BW R-10

[whb52ford]

I just rebuilt a BW R-10. I put it in the car, started the car and no reverse. It appears I have 1, 2 and 3rd gear when I let the clutch out. I pulled the shifter cover off, and manually put the tranny in reverse. Started the car, let the clutch out and the transmission is moving, but the car is not. I had to put rubber bands on the sprag clutch to install it. Is it possible that those rubber bands are preventing reverse. I did notice that the shift rail does move with the OD lever. I can see the rail come into the main transmission. Stumped

[flatheadmurre]

You aren´t missing the the overdrive lockout pieces...when you put reverse in they lockout the overdrive...if not there you get this kind of issue.

[whb52ford]

Could you explain that more. Not sure what that is.

[flatheadmurre]

If i remember right there is a rod activated when reverse is engaged going back to the overdrive part locking it out.
If you pull the overdrive lockout cable does it reverse ?

[whb52ford]

Does not matter if OD cable is in or out, no reverse. I can see the shift rail come into the main tranny body and move out when using the od cable.

[flatheadmurre]

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If the lockout isn´t working it will freewheel when you try to reverse...so start by investigating if the OD lockout works.

[whb52ford]

I don't know what the OD lockout is. Is that the rail that goes into the main body

[40cpe]

See section II of the attached manual. The sun gear is attached to the lock-out rod by a slot in the sun gear. If the part that connects the sun gear to the lock out rod isn't in the slot on the sun gear, the lock out rod can't move the sun gear to lock the transmission for reverse. Also, make sure the side cover you put on the transmission has a tab on the reverse shift arm to engage reverse lockout.
http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/...riveManual.pdf

[whb52ford]

OK, I know I have the lockout rod in the slot on the sungear. The sungear slides into the planetary gear.
I'm confused on the the side cover where you put on the transmission has a tab on the reverse shift arm to engage reverse lockout. I don't know what this is.

[flatheadmurre]

#14 is moving the gear into direct drive if something there is not correctly asembled you get this kind of issues.

[whb52ford]

OK, 14 is the shift rail. I'm pretty sure I have that in correct. The slot is in the sungear. I have the spring at the back end of the rail, it does go through the pawl, it does move with #15 because I can see it in the front tranny. Could #10 be the problem. I had to put rubber bands over the rollers to get them in. Will I have reverse with the rubber bands on?

[whb52ford]

For reverse, should the rail be to the front of the tranny or back of the tranny?

[whb52ford]

I'm thinking that the OD lever is out, that means the sun gear is to the front of the tranny and not in the planetary gear. My problem has to be that the sungear is not connecting to something in the front of the tranny

[flatheadmurre]

Trying to remember...
Can #15 be turned 180 degrees wrong and limit movement ??
Next is if the paw that engages overdrive is limiting the rods movement( so you can´t pull direct while engaged)...could it have been turned 180 ?
Was a whiile since i was inside a R-10...someone else may chime in.

[whb52ford]

#15 as I remember would only move the rail if inserted one way. I know my rail is moving. For what it's worth I took many pics of the pawl and where it was when I took it apart. I'm pretty sure it is in correct because it goes through the pawl.
I'm looking at the diagram and I don't understand how power gets to the back of the od with the sungear to the front. What is making 18 turn?

[whb52ford]

I'm thinking that when the sungear is to the front of the tranny 10 makes it freewheel if rollers are in slots, or drive when rollers are wedged to 18. If I have a rubber band on rollers, it is freewheeling. Do you think the rubber bands are my problem?

[40cpe]

The rollers would freewheel anyway because the shaft is turning backwards in reverse. The car wouldn't move forward if the rollers were not functioning. The sun gear locks the transmission by moving backwards on the splined shaft that is driven from the main transmission. Look at the position of the sun gear in the two illustrations in section II on pages 5 & 6.

Also, something on the reverse lever in the side cover has to push the rod (#14) back when the transmission is put in reverse gear. I don't know if the side cover from a standard non-overdrive has the mechanism or not.

[rotorwrench]

The normal lock out for reverse is performed inside the transmission gear section. The 1st reverse shift arm mechanism actuates an arm inside there that pushes against the shift rail where it protrudes into the front gear section.

The lock out cable will also actuate the lock out lever that pushes the rail back in the overdrive section so it will do the same thing.

You can also have a situation where the overdrive shift solenoid will not disengage below 23 MPH like its supposed to. This is due to an electrical difficulty that must be corrected. If it won't drop out of OD, serious damage can be done if a person shifts the transmission into reverse while it's still in overdrive due to the lock up that will happen. A person can turn the ignition key off and it should drop out of OD as soon as the electrical power is killed. If you turn the switch off & back on and the solenoid clicks then there is a short somewhere in the system. There is a procedure to follow to troubleshoot for where the electrical problem may be. A person can shut the switch off then pull the lock out cable so the car can be driven until the problem is corrected.

[whb52ford]

Really trying to figure this out. Thanks for your help.

I now see that when the rail shows in the front transmission the car will be in overdrive. When trying to engage reverse the reverse fork will try to push back the reverse gear, but can't because the rail is blocking the fork.

I'm looking at page 5 & 6. If I'm reading that right #8 sungear would be away from 5 blocker ring with no overdrive on. The sungear would turn.

Does the blocker ring #5 rotate 360 degrees with the bearing on the other side of#4 adapter plate? What I don't understand is when going to overdrive the #8 sungear would be moved forward into the blocker ring #5. If the blocker ring #5 doesn't rotate 360 degrees with the bearing, would the sungear come into the blocker ring, and become stationary? If the blocker ring does not move 360 degrees, what is the paul doing. I see that when the paul #11 is engaged or extended, it looks like the blocker ring can't move.

[whb52ford]

This is what I know

Side cover is off. Reverse gear activated. The side cover does have a block to push the rail #14 back when reverse is engaged. Rail pushed back so sungear should be in planetary gear. Solenoid removed so the pawl is not pushed in.
Still no reverse.

I'm sure I put the rail into the slot on the sungear. #15 can be installed 180 degrees off, but I believe I have it in the right way because the rail is moving. When I pull the OD cable out, the part of the rail 14 in the front tranny goes back flat against the housing, same as putting it in reverse the side cover reverse pushes the rail back.

So what do I do next?

Also, I just can't figure out what and how 5 works. What is it doing?

[Frank Miller]

I'm pretty sure you will need to disassemble it to see what did not go together correctly. I use grease to assemble the rollers on the one way clutch. With the OD lever forward it should act like a regular transmission. You can bench test all that stuff.

[whb52ford]

I was afraid I was going to hear that. I'm worried I'll pull it from the car and take it apart and still not know what is wrong with it. I don't know how to bench test it.

On a related note. I pulled the working transmission from the car because I paid two different transmission shops to fix it from leaking. Neither fixed it, so I purchased this transmission so I can swap it. Since I now know it doesn't work I'm thinking I may want to put back the working one. On the attachment I would like to know if I can just loosen the bolts at #1 and separate the transmission 1/2 inch, cut a new gasket at the top an insert with plenty of gasket sealer. Then for #2, I know I have to remove the pin and pull out #15. Could I separate 1/2 inch and do the same?

[Bob C]

I see you've mentioned the rubber bands on the clutch and nobody has commented
on them, I can't believe having them in there could be good.


Bob

[40cpe]

Rubber bands have been used forever. The roller drum either cuts them or pushes them off during installation. If the car drives in forward gears with OD handle pushed in, the rollers are functioning.

[whb52ford]

I had not tried it to see if the car went forward with the overdrive on. I just checked it and it does.

I guess I have done all I can, so I'm heading back out to the garage and taking the transmission back out.

[rotorwrench]

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I don't have your diagram so I have to use nomenclature. First you have to be certain that the shift rail is moving all the way back and all the way forward. I don't know if it will fit in the overdrive housing in any way that won't work unless some part of it is damaged but if it will fit in there without being in the annular groove of the sun gear then that would be a problem.

You also need to make sure there isn't some kind of problem up forward in the gear section. The low/reverse gear should be able to move forward to engage low and it needs to be able to move rearward to engage the reverse idler gear. If that all functions as it should then that's not the problem.

The pawl has to be pulled out of the gear plate for normal non overdrive operation. Normally this is done by the operating solenoid. If the rail is moving then the pawl should be out of the way and OK.

The balk ring and gear plate are the team of parts that engage the overdrive when the pawl is shifted up into one of the notches on the gear plate. These two parts are mated together and there has to be some resistance of the balk ring to turning when rotated around the gear plate while the parts are on the bench. If there is no resistance to turning then it won't shift into overdrive properly but that won't affect reverse gear unless it is shifted into overdrive when a person tries to shift into reverse..

The only way reverse will function is if the sun gear is locked in the the planet carrier so that the transmission is in one to one drive or it will just freewheel and go nowhere in reverse.

It is common to use a rubber band to hold the sprag rollers or they would fall out during assembly. It's in the maintenance manuals to do so. It is pushed out of the way by the outer race when the tail shaft is reinstalled. The rubber band will eventually fall to pieces. It is soft material so it won't hurt the gears as long as a person doesn't use a great big fat one. A regular small one with enough tension to hold the rollers will do the job

[whb52ford]

Thanks for all the detail. I think I'm ok on everything except I'm wondering if the sungear is not locking into the planetary gear. I thought it just slid in there.

I have it out of the car, now I need a neighbor to help me lift it onto the workbench.

Can you tell me how to bench test this so when it goes in again, it will stay?
thanks for your info.

[Frank Miller]

When it is on the bench move the levers through the gears and turn the shaft to sww what the output shaft does. You can even move the pawl back and forth to see if anything binds in od. My guess is you did not engage the shift rail lever correctly when you assembled it. It's a wild guess but the best one I have.

[whb52ford]

Well I took it apart today. The rail was in the sun gear. BUT on #18 there is a snap ring (not shown in the pic) that holds the ring gear to the output shaft, I did not have the snap ring in. The ring gear moved over the planetary gear and stayed there.

Thanks everyone for your help. I feel better about it going back in now.

[petehoovie]

[rotorwrench]

That would certainly have cause the problem. Even if it was a lot of work, you can feel confident now. Don't feel like your the only one that can miss something. I know I have before but I learned a lot anyway and I won't forget to check better the next time. It can be run through the gears on the bench as long as you keep turning the input. Overdrive is the only thing you can't really check without running it in the car. Governor on speed is a bit faster than I can turn the thing.

[whb52ford]

As soon as I saw it, it was a How could I miss it? I think I’ll be fine now

[slowforty]

Everything is easier the second or even third time you do it.(excluding Marriage)

[whb52ford]

Well I put the snap ring on that holds the ring gear to output shaft.
I bench tested it to see if I had reverse and first gear and i did, so I put the transmission in the car today. Still no reverse. Can't believe it. Exactly the same as last time. Car will move forward, but not reverse, I didn't use the controls to put in reverse, I manually put it in reverse- no change-no reverse. When the car is running and without the clutch it will grind gears when trying to put into reverse. I'm thinking the 3 speed part is good because of the grinding when I put into reverse. I have had it out and now I don't know what to look for. Something in the overdrive part is not right and I just don't get it. Stumped AGAIN

[whb52ford]

I couldn't sleep so I went out and removed the lever that holds the cable that works the overdrive. I was thinking that maybe the cable was not moving it enough to bring the sungear into the planetary gear. I manually shut the overdrive off at the transmission (to simulate pulling out the cable) and started the car. No reverse.

I was wondering if I had the solenoid in right and the pawl could be blocking the rail so I took the solenoid out. It was in right. Put it back in, started the car. No reverse.

[Frank Miller]

I am stumped.

Can you put it in reverse without it running? If so will the engine turn with the clutch disengaged? Like can you start it? I can't understand why this is happening while running but worked ok on the bench. With the overdrive locked out it should work like a normal 3 speed. Thanks for the updates. Hope we get this solved soon. Yeah I said we.

[whb52ford]

Yes, I can put it in reverse with the engine off. Yes, the engine will turn with the clutch disengaged. The sun gear must not be moving into the planetary gear. This morning I pulled the pin on the of shifter on the tranny and restated it 180 degrees thinking the rail was not moving the sun gear enough. It did nothing at 180, so I put it back.

[rotorwrench]

Are you sure that the reverse idler gear is inside the transmission? Make sure of that and make sure the shift rail isn't stuck all the way to the rear. Well nix that idea since it would make it work all the time so that won't affect it. It has to be all the way back to lock it out and it has to be locked out to go into reverse. If the reverse idler is missing then it won't go into reverse.

This also brings up a possibility that it might have a counter shaft cluster gear that isn't correct tooth count. Something isn't letting it rotate in reverse.

[whb52ford]

When the case was open the reverse idler went in as it should. Which engine running and I try to put in reverse without the clutch it grinds.

I think it’s in the od part

[40cpe]

What is the history of the transmission? Did it work before rebuild?

If the gears on the sun and planetary gears are good, I' thinking there is something wrong with the way the lock-out shaft and parts are assembled. You said earlier that you could hear clicking with the engine running in reverse. If part #14 on the shaft is bent (not 90 degrees from the shaft) it can't push the sun gear far enough, or if the shaft doesn't move the #14 part. It has been a long time since I was in an OD, so my memory isn't clear.

[whb52ford]

When I tried to put it into reverse not using the clutch it was the reverse gear in the three speed part that was grinding. This transmission has not been in the car before. My transmission has a cracked case and leaks and other issues. I purchased this in unknown condition. When I opened it up I had to get a new sungear, planetary gear and #14 rail. Got them all from Van Pelt-expensive. I agree with you and think that for some reason the sun gear is not going into the planetary gear far enough. What I don't understand is why does it work on the bench and not in the car. What is different?

Do I have the wrong parts for this transmission? Just talking overdrive part. They all seem to fit together. Just asking.

Sounds like it's coming out again. Just not sure what to do once it's out.

[40cpe]

My thinking is that there is not enough resistance to keep it from working on the bench. There is probably enough friction between the sun and planetary gears to make it turn. Just MHO.

[rotorwrench]

There are some clusters that have the first two gears correct tooth count but they have a different reverse tooth count. Yours should be the post 51 type transmission. They use all different gears than the early ones from early in 1951 back to 49 or so. If you can see good tooth contact on the reverse gear train than that's not it. There were several variations of these transmissions for Fords & Mercury cars & pickups so there are some different parts between them. A person has to know exactly what it came from to source the parts for them. You will have to verify fit of the shift rail and sun gear as well as the planetary set up. I don't think R10 stuff will fit the R11 stuff but I haven't checked the part numbers between the Lincoln and the Ford/Mercury cars to know for any certainty. If something isn't right in those items then it won't function. The sun gear has to be able to lock up the planet carrier or it's a no go in reverse.

[whb52ford]

The replacement items look like the ones that were in there.

It is an R10, not an R11

When the tranny is apart the rail easily slides the sun gear into the planetary gear. The planetary gears rotate and don’t rotate depending on the sun gear. When I assemble it the hub goes easily over the planetary gear.

This seemed odd to me
When I assemble the od I put the shaft and hub over the roller bearings and slide over the planetary gear.
When I put the tail piece on, you have to open up that “built in the cover” snap ring. I do that and then the bearing passes through. When the housing is in the whole way, I have to pull the shaft away from the planetary gear to lock in the snap ring.

[Frank Miller]

If you step on the clutch it should go in reverse with the engine running if it tested ok on the bench. What happens when you engage the clutch is another story. Your problem really has me perplexed and I'm hesitant to give you more ideas without looking at it. In other wrds i have nothing but will follow along.

[rotorwrench]

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There are different output shaft lengths and different tail shaft lengths and that's why I mentioned making sure of what you have. The R10 overdrives were used on several different transmissions by more than a few different auto manufacturers so there are a lot of different parts out there that look similar enough to make you scratch your head. Even a small amount of difference could affect the fit and function. If the two transmissions look the same on the outside, it may be time to compare parts on the inside. If you have one that used to work normally then you have a baseline of parts to go by.

[whb52ford]

When I bench tested it the solenoid was out. Could that have any bearing on this? Just thinking out loud.

[hook00pad]

Bad solenoid? Have you actually tested it's operation by applying voltage? It has to be working to lock out the OD sungear/clutch.

[whb52ford]

I know the solenoid is working because I had to energize it to get it locked into the pawl.

OK, I just pulled the transmission out of the car. It's on the jack stand and believe me the first thing I did was see if it is working. On the jack stand, I put it in first, turn the input shaft and the output goes in the same direction. Put it into reverse and the output shaft turns the opposite direction. It's working on the jack stand, but not in the car. Something wrong with the car. It' in the throw out bearing because clutch works and car moves forward. Solenoid and governor out of transmission now.

[1931 flamingo]

I know there's a solenoid involved but what about out of adjustment linkage??
Paul in CT

[40cpe]

Use something to hold the output shaft firmly. It could be internal friction moving the shaft in reverse.

[whb52ford]

deleted

[whb52ford]

deleted

[whb52ford]

If I remember right the engine moves clockwise. In first gear when I rotate the input shaft clockwise, the output shaft moves clockwise. However, if I can move the output shaft counter clockwise-it will move while input is stationary.

When I put the tranny in reverse, and rotate clockwise, the output shaft will turn counter clockwise-but I can hold the output shaft while the input shaft is moving. With tranny in reverse, I cannot move the output shaft clockwise without moving the input shaft. (It's tight the wrong way)

Does that tell us anything?

The rail seems to be working. When in neutral there is tension on the OD lever. When in reverse there is no tension on the OD lever. It's free and I"m guessing because the cam on the reverse lever pushed the rail back-as it should.

[40cpe]

If you have the rear lever in the "locked out" position you should not be able to turn the output shaft in any direction without moving the input shaft while in any gear except neutral. While in reverse the output shaft should not move without moving the input shaft, regardless of the lock out handle position.

When the transmission was apart, did you insert the sun gear into the planetary gear all the way to insure the teeth mesh? I've never heard of any mis-match of the two gears, but something is stopping them from meshing.

[whb52ford]

I put the transmission in neutral, then engaged the lockout. The output shaft turns freely in both directions.

I then put it into first, and output turns freely in one direction only.
I then put it into reverse and output turns freely in same direction as above.

When I put it together I remember the sungear went inside the planetary gear. Now as to all the way-I don't know. The sungear does engage and disengage the planetary gear by use of the rail.

Keep the questions coming.

[40cpe]

The only other suggestion I have it to call Van Pelt. He has a reputation for being helpful, especially if you bought parts from him.

[whb52ford]

Van Pelt is not open till Monday. Do you think I should leave it together or take it apart?

[40cpe]

It is your call, but I think you have tried everything you can from the outside.

[JSeery]

Might try a PM, he is on here often.

[whb52ford]

I don’t know how to PM him or how to find his name on here. I know PM means private message, and it stops there. Willing to learn, but need help

[4dFord/SC]

Originally Posted by whb52ford

I don’t know how to PM him or how to find his name on here. I know PM means private message, and it stops there. Willing to learn, but need help

Go to the "1939-48 Transmission Rear Thrust Washer...." thread below. One of the responses is from "Mac VP." Click on his user name; several options will appear, one of which is to send him a PM.

[whb52ford]

I found him and sent him a pm. Thanks for the good instructions. I'll let you know what the problem is when it's fixed. Thanks

[whb52ford]

I have not heard from Van Pelt, not sure how often he is on here.

i took the back off the tranny.
I think I have the wrong rail. Here is why.

In the photo the rail does not go all the way up to the adapter plate. I would think it should go all the way up.

In the had drawing I think the recess in the rail is to far to the left and should be more to the right so that the od pin will move the sungear more into the planetary gear. I don't think it can physically move the rail enough to lock it in.

Everybody has been focusing on the sungear and planetary gear.

Comments ???

[Frank Miller]

Here is a pic of mine. The round part slides into the pawl to keep it from engaging.

[whb52ford]

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I believe I have the Pawl in correct because it will let the rail pass when solenoid in off position. However I noticed that when I shift into reverse that the rail comes out, but only part way. The spring compresses and as you can see the sungear is not going all the way into the planetary gear. I don't have the case on so maybe with the case it would support the end of the rail. I lift or jiggle the rail and the rail moves out more, but not enough to push the sungear all the way into the planetary gear. If move the drive shaft the sungear still does not go into the planetary gear all the way. I can take the rail and with little effort push the sungear into the planetary gear all the way. What would prevent the sengear from going all the way into the planetary gear?

[rotorwrench]

The spring mechanism on the shift rail allows the rail to push the fork & gear up to the planet carrier and then spring loads it against there until there is an alignment of the splines where the sun gear will then engage the planet carrier under that spring tension. With some rotation, the spines should engage each other and lock out the planetary drive. If it won't lock out then it's either a poor spline fit or the shift rail isn't long enough to push it back as far as it needs to go for complete engagement. The sun gear splines have to be long enough for engagement and there should be no blockage such as a problem with the internal ID of the sun gear on the gear section output shaft. It should slide easily on the shaft.

Another thing that needs to be considered is some sort of blockage of the shift rail. If the pawl is properly located, it will fit into the groove on the pawl which locks the pawl from movement. There can also be crud in the tail shaft housing where the shift rail is supported. If it blocks the movement then it won't lock out. This could be a problem on the older transmissions that had the electrical lock out switch back there behind the shift rail bore. They used a ball bearing in the old ones in 49 & part of 1950 and sometimes that would get fouled up and not let the rail move back. If yours is a later one, it shouldn't have a rail switch since Ford finally deleted it as a redundant component.

If it has the wrong shift rail then you will need the correct part. They made a lot of different shift rails for the different transmissions and they all look similar but are not all the same. That needs to be verified for sure.

[40cpe]

I keep looking at the guide from the case through the hole in the pawl. It looks crooked like it might be creating a drag in the hole in the pawl. Maybe it is just the photograph, but It should not be dragging on the pawl.

[Frank Miller]

I noticed that too. I'm hoping from my picture he can reference how long the shift rail should be. That cut out at the end is to activate the reverse lockout switch.

[rotorwrench]

It does look like the two shafts aren't parallel to each other. They have to be for the rail to move properly. As I mentioned before, they made a lot of different shift rails on a similar pattern but there were a lot of differences. Ford, GM, & Studebaker as well as others used different type transmissions with R10 overdrives grafted on the back so there are differences. The shift rail & shift rail pilot stub may have even had different center to center dimensions as well as the notch cut in the rail for the lock out lever. Ford used at least six different designs or more for Borg Warner pattern overdrives. Lincolns had several, Fords & Mercurys had more than a few. The 259 series, the T85, and the T86 transmissions were all used with overdrives of either the R10 or R11 variety and that's just Ford Motor Company.

[whb52ford]

I took a piece of paper and cut it so I would have something square to check the pin without taking off the rail. Sure enough the pin was just a bit off. I took a big hammer and kept hitting the pin, checking it after every tap till I got it perfect. I took a light file and went over it in case I made any flat spots or out of round. Then I tried it and it worked perfect. When I put it into reverse, the rail popped out all the way. I put it back together and this time I bench tested it with vice grips on each end of the shafts. Neutral and both ends free. Into reverse and it was tight on both ends. I got it into the car, but it got to late to finish it. I think that pin was the problem.

A great big thank you for noticing it.

[whb52ford]

Transmission in. I have reverse and overdrive works.

Bent pin, simple fix.

Big thanks to 40cpe for catching it.

Thanks to everyone for all your help.

[tubman]

WOW! That was quite an ordeal; I'm glad you got it fixed. I have been watching this closely because I am about to put an OD transmission in my '51.

[40cpe]

you deserve the credit for sticking with it. Many would have given up and installed a standard 3-speed.

[whb52ford]

You will love the OD. Best thing I have done to the car. The weak link is the relay that mounts to firewall . Get a good one.

[hook00pad]

Way to go, bud. Like my Mamma says "Don't ever quit!" Ha Ha, she's almost 99 and hasn't quit yet!

Al Hook

[Frank Miller]

This is one for the books. A lot of guys here with experience and the problem was not obvious. It's good to keep these obscure problems filed away because it'll go quicker the next time someone has it. Thanks for keeping us all updated.

[rotorwrench]

If I quit learning something new on this old stuff then I'd be dead. A person may never see all the different things that can happen in one lifetime.