The Ford Barn

Mountain Dew · 07-17-2022, 09:42 AM

I'm a Model A guy and recently acquired a '46 Super Deluxe with a V8. A new problem is whopping my butt. It starts up cold, surprisingly quick but will not re-start after I shut it down. Earlier I had replaced the fuel pump and push rod. I'm getting fuel to the carburetor and just to ease my mind that it's not a fuel problem, I squirted a little gas in the carb.........no change at all. I'm going the route of an ignition problem. The spark appears to be weak but it's there. I've swapped out condenser and coil......... no change at all. Could there be an issue with the vacuum brake throwing the timing off?

deuce lover · 07-17-2022, 10:49 AM

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Kube · 07-17-2022, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

I'm a Model A guy and recently acquired a '46 Super Deluxe with a V8. A new problem is whopping my butt. It starts up cold, surprisingly quick but will not re-start after I shut it down. Earlier I had replaced the fuel pump and push rod. I'm getting fuel to the carburetor and just to ease my mind that it's not a fuel problem, I squirted a little gas in the carb.........no change at all. I'm going the route of an ignition problem. The spark appears to be weak but it's there. I've swapped out condenser and coil......... no change at all. Could there be an issue with the vacuum brake throwing the timing off?

Stock coil? If so, most likely that's the issue. Swapping it? With what? Repop coils are notoriously poop. Repop condensers are like flipping a coin. One is good, the next is not.
If it starts well once cooled back off, I'd go first to the coil.
The vacuum brake is not the issue. Period.
Simply for peace of mind and to avoid future frustration I would strongly suggest you have both the distributor rebuilt as well as the coil. A reasonable investment, one that will most definitely offer you peace of mind.

JayChicago · 07-17-2022, 11:09 AM

Both coil and condenser will sometimes work when cold but later fail when warm. Symptom is weak spark.

I have read that brand new condensers are often bad out of the box. Condensers are cheap and easy to swap out. Maybe obtain another condenser or two and try it.

Mountain Dew · 07-17-2022, 11:10 AM

I agree with you Kube. It's not a stock coil. I think I have a stock coil in my spare parts along with a distributor. I should have them both rebuilt and go from there. I heard there's a guy in Florida that's good at rebuilding coils and distributors.

JayChicago · 07-17-2022, 11:29 AM

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“Not a stock coil.” “Recently acquired ‘46”

Maybe someone has installed an improper coil. Coil has to be matched to the electrical system on this car. 6 volt vs. 12 volt. With ignition resistor vs. no resistor.

Kube · 07-17-2022, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

I agree with you Kube. It's not a stock coil. I think I have a stock coil in my spare parts along with a distributor. I should have them both rebuilt and go from there. I heard there's a guy in Florida that's good at rebuilding coils and distributors.

George Haney is "the guy" for coils. Yep, he's in Florida.
I like Charlie Schwendler for distributors. He's in New York.

Both fine men that off great workmanship at reasonable prices.

1942deluxe · 07-17-2022, 02:54 PM

Question, when you swapped coils are you swapping an original style coil (bakelight , rectangular Coil) or is it using a round modern style coil? Agree with Kube's recommendation for Skip Haney and Charlie.

Mountain Dew · 07-17-2022, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayChicago

“Not a stock coil.” “Recently acquired ‘46”

Maybe someone has installed an improper coil. Coil has to be matched to the electrical system on this car. 6 volt vs. 12 volt. With ignition resistor vs. no resistor.

I swapped out the coil that came on the car with a 6v coil from my Model A parts bin. The symptoms are the same.

I would like to have the correct coil on the car. I have one that I will see if Skip can rebuild. I'm not sure where the resister is suppose to be mounted and wired up.

FWIW.......So far I have been through 3 condensers trying to figure out this problem. None of these were "New" out of the box condensers.

Kube · 07-17-2022, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

I swapped out the coil that came on the car with a 6v coil from my Model A parts bin. The symptoms are the same.

I would like to have the correct coil on the car. I have one that I will see if Skip can rebuild. I'm not sure where the resister is suppose to be mounted and wired up.

FWIW.......So far I have been through 3 condensers trying to figure out this problem. None of these were "New" out of the box condensers.

Just to allow you a little confidence that you are on the correct path... I'd tested at least 50 NOS (Ford - OEM) condensers and found just six that were good.
I prefer Hunt Magneto condensers at 30mfd.
They are a bit costly perhaps - around $32, but are perfect every time.
I've attached a photo of the correct coil and ignition resister for your '46.

Graeme / New Zealand · 07-17-2022, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kube

Stock coil? If so, most likely that's the issue. Swapping it? With what? Repop coils are notoriously poop. Repop condensers are like flipping a coin. One is good, the next is not.
If it starts well once cooled back off, I'd go first to the coil.
The vacuum brake is not the issue. Period.
Simply for peace of mind and to avoid future frustration I would strongly suggest you have both the distributor rebuilt as well as the coil. A reasonable investment, one that will most definitely offer you peace of mind.

Kube talks sense. I had similar issues with my 48. Had the dizzy rebuilt, ditched the tin can coil and got a stock one rebuilt by Skip and the old girl hasn't missed a beat in 7 years.

Edit : I found the stock condensors hit an miss and good ones would crap out too. I now run a Bosch GH208-C which is common to a lot 70s to 80s Nissan and also the 74 to 78 Honda Civic and Accord.

GB

alanwoodieman · 07-17-2022, 03:09 PM

send the dizzy and the coil to Skip Haney in Fla. Just sent a 46 coil to him and it sure makes the engine run good!!

1942deluxe · 07-17-2022, 03:14 PM

My 48 is wired bypassing the resistor on the panel under the dash that also has a circuit breaker. I'm using an IC7 Napa coil that has an internal resistor. If you are using a stock coil there should be a resistor either under the dash or on the coil but not both to my knowledge. It matters rather the coil has an internal resistor.

FortyNiner · 07-17-2022, 09:05 PM

Your symptoms are similar to my 46 before a coil rebuild by Skip. Zero issues with the rebuilt unit.

Mountain Dew · 07-18-2022, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayChicago

“Not a stock coil.” “Recently acquired ‘46”

Maybe someone has installed an improper coil. Coil has to be matched to the electrical system on this car. 6 volt vs. 12 volt. With ignition resistor vs. no resistor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1942deluxe

My 48 is wired bypassing the resistor on the panel under the dash that also has a circuit breaker. I'm using an IC7 Napa coil that has an internal resistor. If you are using a stock coil there should be a resistor either under the dash or on the coil but not both to my knowledge. It matters rather the coil has an internal resistor.

Interesting............The coil that was on it is an Echlin IC9 with no external resistor and is NOT labeled "No External Resistor Required" or anything of that sort. It does however say "6 volt". Do I need a resistor on an IC9 coil? In other words, is a resistor needed on a 6 volt coil when running it on a 6 volt system?

cmbrucew · 07-18-2022, 03:41 PM

IC9 echlin coil is listed for all 1920 - 1931 ford engines, no resister listed.

Bruce

1942deluxe · 07-18-2022, 04:52 PM

Mountain Dew, I can't say for sure on the IC9 coil. I see on the NAPA website they recommend the IC7 coil though. Listed I think for around $25.

JayChicago · 07-18-2022, 08:26 PM

Can you put an ohmmeter on the primary side of that Model A coil?

With 6 volts, total resistance thru the primary circuit should be about 1.5 ohm, to limit current to about 4 amps.

Mountain Dew · 07-23-2022, 09:38 AM

OKay..... I was able to get back to my '46 Ford.

A resistance check of the coils follows:

Echlin IC-9
Primary 1.4 Ohm
Secondary 6.9 K Ohm

Coil off of a Model A
Primary 1.4 Ohm
Secondary 9.5 K Ohm

These checks do not align with the diagram I got from a post here on Ford Barn but it is close to the 1.5 Ohm that JayChicago mentioned. Is it close enough? Could adding a resistor solve my problem? Would it be simpler to get a Echlin IC-7 coil?

FWIW.....I sent a coil and distributor to Skip Haney for rebuild.

1942deluxe · 07-23-2022, 10:31 AM

Can't answer your first question but sending the coil and distributor to Skip was a good move. He did the coil on my 42 Ford with a 59 A-B engine. He's really quick on turn around in my experience. After Skip's coil and a CharlieNY distributor I would say best starting flathead I've had in the last 49 years. I think if mine I'd wait to get the distributor and coil back and I think you'll be happy.

07-17-2022, 09:42 AM	#1
Mountain Dew Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Newport, NC Posts: 195	'46 Will Not Re-Start I'm a Model A guy and recently acquired a '46 Super Deluxe with a V8. A new problem is whopping my butt. It starts up cold, surprisingly quick but will not re-start after I shut it down. Earlier I had replaced the fuel pump and push rod. I'm getting fuel to the carburetor and just to ease my mind that it's not a fuel problem, I squirted a little gas in the carb.........no change at all. I'm going the route of an ignition problem. The spark appears to be weak but it's there. I've swapped out condenser and coil......... no change at all. Could there be an issue with the vacuum brake throwing the timing off?

07-17-2022, 10:49 AM	#2
deuce lover Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern France Posts: 5,301	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start ....

07-17-2022, 11:09 AM	#4
JayChicago Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Chicago Posts: 728	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Both coil and condenser will sometimes work when cold but later fail when warm. Symptom is weak spark. I have read that brand new condensers are often bad out of the box. Condensers are cheap and easy to swap out. Maybe obtain another condenser or two and try it.

07-17-2022, 11:10 AM	#5
Mountain Dew Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Newport, NC Posts: 195	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start I agree with you Kube. It's not a stock coil. I think I have a stock coil in my spare parts along with a distributor. I should have them both rebuilt and go from there. I heard there's a guy in Florida that's good at rebuilding coils and distributors.

07-17-2022, 11:29 AM	#6
JayChicago Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Chicago Posts: 728	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) “Not a stock coil.” “Recently acquired ‘46” Maybe someone has installed an improper coil. Coil has to be matched to the electrical system on this car. 6 volt vs. 12 volt. With ignition resistor vs. no resistor.

07-17-2022, 02:54 PM	#8
1942deluxe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Albion, PA Posts: 708	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Question, when you swapped coils are you swapping an original style coil (bakelight , rectangular Coil) or is it using a round modern style coil? Agree with Kube's recommendation for Skip Haney and Charlie.

07-17-2022, 03:09 PM	#12
alanwoodieman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: upstate SC Posts: 2,963	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start send the dizzy and the coil to Skip Haney in Fla. Just sent a 46 coil to him and it sure makes the engine run good!!

07-17-2022, 03:14 PM	#13
1942deluxe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Albion, PA Posts: 708	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start My 48 is wired bypassing the resistor on the panel under the dash that also has a circuit breaker. I'm using an IC7 Napa coil that has an internal resistor. If you are using a stock coil there should be a resistor either under the dash or on the coil but not both to my knowledge. It matters rather the coil has an internal resistor.

07-17-2022, 09:05 PM	#14
FortyNiner Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: u-rah-rah-Wisconsin Posts: 1,136	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Your symptoms are similar to my 46 before a coil rebuild by Skip. Zero issues with the rebuilt unit. __________________ 19 and 49 F1 - jes' like Henry II built 1946 Deluxe - as Henry built it

07-18-2022, 03:41 PM	#16
cmbrucew Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: North of sandy ago, CA. Posts: 2,064	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start IC9 echlin coil is listed for all 1920 - 1931 ford engines, no resister listed. Bruce __________________ Works good Lasts long time

07-18-2022, 04:52 PM	#17
1942deluxe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Albion, PA Posts: 708	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Mountain Dew, I can't say for sure on the IC9 coil. I see on the NAPA website they recommend the IC7 coil though. Listed I think for around $25. Last edited by 1942deluxe; 07-18-2022 at 04:53 PM. Reason: more information

07-18-2022, 08:26 PM	#18
JayChicago Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Chicago Posts: 728	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Can you put an ohmmeter on the primary side of that Model A coil? With 6 volts, total resistance thru the primary circuit should be about 1.5 ohm, to limit current to about 4 amps.

07-23-2022, 10:31 AM	#20
1942deluxe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Albion, PA Posts: 708	Re: '46 Will Not Re-Start Can't answer your first question but sending the coil and distributor to Skip was a good move. He did the coil on my 42 Ford with a 59 A-B engine. He's really quick on turn around in my experience. After Skip's coil and a CharlieNY distributor I would say best starting flathead I've had in the last 49 years. I think if mine I'd wait to get the distributor and coil back and I think you'll be happy.