Metal Stitching my Block

[psimet]

My block was cracked many, many decades before I ever got it. Original to the car and a September '28. We covered it in a previous thread: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299839

I had asked Ken Ehrenhofer about it saying I had JB Welded it but it still was weeping to which he replied, "then you didn't fix it right."

So last year I decided I was going to go all out. I got a pencil grinder and bits and spent a long time cleaning it all out and grinding everything back. When that was done I got a LOT of JB Weld and worked it in to fix it.

That patch lasted well enough I was able to run all last summer and eventually solve some overheating issues, etc.

So I took my son (16 at the time) out in it late last year to teach him how to drive it. Of course he stalled it a few times.



When we got back I realized the area that was patched was back to weeping again. It's where the crack is located is around where the flywheel housing bolts up (maybe I can't remember specifically) but it seems to be under a lot of stress and the heavy clutch play of the new driver was enough to damage the patch.

So I am ready to find a permanent fix - if I am using the same block it appears that I will be metal stitching it. I know nearly nothing about the process. I have a club member who wants to come over and pull the engine.

That's cool but then what am I doing? I was sent an excerpt of the name of a company that apparently seems to sell cold stitching supplies from one of the A magazines but I'm looking for advice from those familiar with the process.

As for whether or not I can do it on my own - mechanically I am more than capable but - I understand it all but I also don't have tons of space or necessarily the right tools.

Any advice re the cold metal stitching process? Any advice on what else I would need to check on the block to even see if it's worth fixing? (I have concerns on whether or not the exhaust side of the block can be adequately cleaned up and decked clean enough to seal well. I currently use the glands and some sealant to help.)

[Gene F]

Oh gosh, you are going to get some replies to this. Here's the thing, only a very experienced welder can do this type of work. I can not stress this enough. In all the US there are only a few shops that specialize in these types repairs.

Another thing, when welding cast iron they use a high nickel content rod, and reverse the leads on the arc welder.

[nkaminar]

What is your budget? How much are you willing to spend? Is, as you say, the engine worth fixing? How much driving are you planning? Local or across the US? What about alternatives, a good used engine without a crack or a Burtz engine?

When I was a teen, many many years ago, people would give me perfectly good used Model A engines, but those days are long gone.

[Gene F]

I worked with a guy once, and he formerly drove a dump truck with a gas engine. The block was cracked. He put a plumbing product in the radiator called WaterGlaze, or perhaps WaterGlass. He said it worked and held for years.

[Gene F]

Do you live in a title state? I mean what happens if you buy a used engine?

[psimet]

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Originally Posted by Gene F

Oh gosh, you are going to get some replies to this. Here's the thing, only a very experienced welder can do this type of work. I can not stress this enough. In all the US there are only a few shops that specialize in these types repairs.

Another thing, when welding cast iron they use a high nickel content rod, and reverse the leads on the arc welder.

It's not welding...or brazing. It's metal stitching. A cold process. I'm past looking at options. Just interested in specific experience people have with metal stitching.

[psimet]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Do you live in a title state? I mean what happens if you buy a used engine?

I have a title. The title has the engine number on it. I haven't pulled the cowl to verify the frame number but I know it will match the current engine.

I was frankly told by a few in this hobby not to worry about it as we would "just stamp" any replacement block to match. There are a few correct stamp sets floating around in the area.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Here is my advice based on experience and an A/B engine rebuilder;

If the crack is along the lower edge of the block at the bottom of water jacket area (-just below the water inlet), then stitching is very difficult at best to do since the side of the water jacket does not have very much rigidity. I would suggest you not try the stitching method in that location. An epoxy will work, and will last many years if you do it correctly. If I (-or my customer) is adamant about a permanent repair, then I use a product called Muggy Weld. In the perfect world, I will preheat the block in a BBQ grill over a very low flame. Allow it to have a couple of hours to come up to 400° or so, and be fully heat soaked. Then make the weld and allow it to cool overnight submerged in a tub of play sand. Use Sodium Silicate or Blue Devil Block & Head Sealer in the coolant once the engine has been rebuilt and first started.

As far as pitting on the exhaust ports, use JB Weld #37901 to fill the pits. Once cured, your machinist can flycut that area smooth and it should last as long as the rebuild does.

[Gene F]

Same here in Ohio.

When all is settled please post the results on here. I would love to know a real-world, practical answer to this.

GENE

[psimet]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

What is your budget? How much are you willing to spend? Is, as you say, the engine worth fixing? How much driving are you planning? Local or across the US? What about alternatives, a good used engine without a crack or a Burtz engine?

When I was a teen, many many years ago, people would give me perfectly good used Model A engines, but those days are long gone.

Apologies.... and yes I didn't include any of those answers as I have already considered them and know where I am at - but of course no one else knows that.

Car is a single family car. Been in mine since it was sold. I have the original sales invoice. 3rd owner. It will stay in the family forever baring circumstances beyond our control.

It will stay almost completely original. I'm younger than 90% of those in this hobby (only 48) so I don't see rust as a horrible thing. Still have the original interior that is in incredible shape for what it is.

The intent is for the car to be mechanically as good as it can be without a complete body off restoration.

I would like to keep the original block. I'm not willing to junk it immediately. the engine runs extremely well for sitting as long as it did. It was "gone through" around '82 or so by my uncle who was more than capable. When I dropped the pan everything was in better shape than I would have imagined. No real play in any of the rods, everything was smooth. I don't believe it was ever bored over. I feel like most of the pistons are original but there were skirt expanders on a couple of them IIRC.

What I am looking for is something along the lines of quick checks. Other places to check for cracks knowing I have this one already. Giving me an idea of how much can be decked off the manifold side. If I can roughly measure from a straight edge to the depth of some of the rot I have there then I can get an idea if it would even clean up. if it isn't cleaning up I am probably moving on from the block and stamping something else to match.

If I have to yank the head I am sure I would measure the bores and check the condition to see if there is anything left to work, etc.

My big thing is a club member want to come over and yank the engine. Great. Then what?

[johnneilson]

I have done stitching on blocks in a few places.

As Brent has mentioned, it requires base material to be present and not in a highly stressed area.

The concept is to install a threaded tapered iron plug into a crack or next to a crack, cut it off and peen slightly. This is done in an overlapping sequence along the crack.

In some race motors where the crack travels from the valve seat to the bore it has been done successfully by sleeving the block first and then stitching into the sleeve and into the valve pocket. It is also advisable to have a couple different size pins and taps available.

John

[psimet]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Here is my advice based on experience and an A/B engine rebuilder;

If the crack is along the lower edge of the block at the bottom of water jacket area (-just below the water inlet), then stitching is very difficult at best to do since the side of the water jacket does not have very much rigidity. I would suggest you not try the stitching method in that location. An epoxy will work, and will last many years if you do it correctly. If I (-or my customer) is adamant about a permanent repair, then I use a product called Muggy Weld. In the perfect world, I will preheat the block in a BBQ grill over a very low flame. Allow it to have a couple of hours to come up to 400° or so, and be fully heat soaked. Then make the weld and allow it to cool overnight submerged in a tub of play sand. Use Sodium Silicate or Blue Devil Block & Head Sealer in the coolant once the engine has been rebuilt and first started.

As far as pitting on the exhaust ports, use JB Weld #37901 to fill the pits. Once cured, your machinist can flycut that area smooth and it should last as long as the rebuild does.

Nice. Yes this is what I was looking for. I have pictures in the other thread but the crack is along the curve where the side of the casting transitions to the underside of the water jacket. Runs along cylinder 4 and then up slightly along the edge on the back side of the block.

I understand about the flexyness there as that's why I keep ending back in this spot. It was originally done with JB weld I believe (unless it was lead tbh). i honestly don't know if it ever really held but the repair was old so I assume it did at some point. It was done before I ever had the car and the car sat for 25 ish years after I got it. As a part of going through it all before starting it I flushed the water jacket and was then I found the leak.

I gotta think if I didn't get that repair done "correctly" and the JB weld would still work then there really isn't any way I am getting that fixed with it in the car. The last time I pulled the starter and linkages to give me more room and it was still near impossible and took days of grinding. I wish I had pictures.

[Harpkatt]

If you ever happen across a copy of the Victor Page Model A Restorer book I recall a section that discusses engine crack repair. Some distinctly antiquated repair methods were given. I'm not saying they good...or bad since I've never tried. But they were interesting.

[psimet]

Just found a pic of it during the process of cleaning it up. This is looking "up" along cylinder 4. It always ends up weeping on the bottom edge of the corner. Right underneath what I assume is the flywheel housing (apologies if that's not correct. I haven't really looked at that "side" of the engine) bolts up.

Looking at it again and remembering the stitching process I am thinking it's not a good candidate for stitching. .....

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Here is my advice based on experience and an A/B engine rebuilder;

If the crack is along the lower edge of the block at the bottom of water jacket area (-just below the water inlet), then stitching is very difficult at best to do since the side of the water jacket does not have very much rigidity. I would suggest you not try the stitching method in that location. An epoxy will work, and will last many years if you do it correctly. If I (-or my customer) is adamant about a permanent repair, then I use a product called Muggy Weld. In the perfect world, I will preheat the block in a BBQ grill over a very low flame. Allow it to have a couple of hours to come up to 400° or so, and be fully heat soaked. Then make the weld and allow it to cool overnight submerged in a tub of play sand. Use Sodium Silicate or Blue Devil Block & Head Sealer in the coolant once the engine has been rebuilt and first started.

As far as pitting on the exhaust ports, use JB Weld #37901 to fill the pits. Once cured, your machinist can flycut that area smooth and it should last as long as the rebuild does.

Brent, so does this make the babbit fall out?

[jb-ob]

Describe 'not a good candidate' ?

Shame you are so far away from Frank Casey in Millbury, Ma.

Metal stitched my '28 block while I waited in his drive way ("What the hell you want to drive all the way back here?"). Magnaflux and pressure tested. The job was so beautiful it was a shame to paint over it.

Sitting in his shop was a five cylinder Cat engine with a connecting rod thru the block. He ground it square, cut another piece of cast iron and stitched the two together.

Amazing lost talent.

[Synchro909]

While I understand the desire to keep the original block, maybe you consider a new Burtz engine. They come with NO number stamped on them so you could stamp the same number on the Burtz, keep your mouth shut and drive on and on and on!
That is, of course said without me knowing what your financial situation is but from my calculations, a new Burtz engine is very comparable to rebuilding an original.

[1crosscut]

In you link in your initial post take another look at my post #36 in that thread. Since it seems the crack in your block is moving enough to break the J.B. loose I think it may work for you.

[ronn]

not sure why you wouldnt just switch the motor out?


Is it really worth all of the work, only to wonder if it doesnt re occur in a yr or three?


some things are worth saving, this doesnt appear to be one.

[nkaminar]

Take the motor out of the car to do the repair. You can buy an inexpensive motor stand at places like Harbor Freight. Use long bolts at the water inlet on the side of the engine to mount the block to the stand, see photo. Take the engine completely apart to do the repair. When putting it back together clean and inspect everything and put on a nice coat of paint.

I don't think this is a good spot to do a stitch repair.

I have repaired cast iron parts many times using nickle rod to do the repair. As Brent said, heat the block first. You may be able to get away with local heat at the repair area without melting out the babbett. Do a short weld then peen with a ball point hammer. Do another short weld and peen. Repeat until completed. Weld metal shrinks when it cools. The peening puts the weld in compression as it cools so the weld does not form a new crack. If you concerned about cosmetics, you can grind the weld to match the contour.