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Old 01-25-2019, 11:45 PM   #1
daveymc29
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Default Brake Pills

So my actuating pins are the correct length. Just purchased same and cross checked with the Red Book. The actuating arms on the fronts will lean forward 15 degrees with the rods unhooked. when the brakes are together and I'm ready to install the rods I find that it will take two "Pills" to maintain the 15 degrees on the right side. The left will still come back to about 10 degrees and I'm sure that a third "Pill" will match up the two sides. I suspect the cup in the bottom of the wedges are worn and the left more so than the right. I have heard two pills is the limit, but am thinking of welding three with JB or Lock-Tite to make the fronts start pulling from the 15 degree forward point. Any thoughts on that? I hate to take the brakes off just to put in new wedges, but then if that;s what it takes I could do that.Rather than weld three together could one use one in the upper end of the pin and two in the bottom? (I'm beginning to wish I had sprung for the hydraulics. About $4K)
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Old 01-26-2019, 02:02 AM   #2
RandyinUtah
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Try welding a little bit on the rod to increase its length. I feel this is better than the pills.
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Old 01-26-2019, 06:45 AM   #3
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Brake Pills

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Originally Posted by daveymc29 View Post
So my actuating pins are the correct length. Just purchased same and cross checked with the Red Book. The actuating arms on the fronts will lean forward 15 degrees with the rods unhooked. when the brakes are together and I'm ready to install the rods I find that it will take two "Pills" to maintain the 15 degrees on the right side. The left will still come back to about 10 degrees and I'm sure that a third "Pill" will match up the two sides. I suspect the cup in the bottom of the wedges are worn and the left more so than the right. I have heard two pills is the limit, but am thinking of welding three with JB or Lock-Tite to make the fronts start pulling from the 15 degree forward point. Any thoughts on that? I hate to take the brakes off just to put in new wedges, but then if that;s what it takes I could do that.Rather than weld three together could one use one in the upper end of the pin and two in the bottom? (I'm beginning to wish I had sprung for the hydraulics. About $4K)
Let me ask a few questions;
You said the actuating pins are the same length. Specifically 'what' length? Are they the same length as each other, the same length as what you removed, -or the same length as factory specification?

Are the wedges original -or are they worn originals? If not only are they worn in the cups, how do you know the ramp angle is not worn causing the rollers to bind?

If you must use one 'pill', then something is worn. If you must use two 'pills' together, something(s) is/are VERY badly worn. Three...!! The bottom line in your scenario is just like I have said over & over in that original Model-A brakes are not easy (-nor cheap) to restore correctly, ...but done correctly and thoroughly, they do vey well. Hydraulic brakes are not without their share of problems too.
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Old 01-26-2019, 08:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: Brake Pills

It is not unusual to find one side of the front service brakes differs from the other. I suspect it occurs because of variations in the frame. To be sure you are judging the 15-degree angle uniformly, make a 15-degree right triangle template from cardboard or Masonite or plywood.
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Old 01-26-2019, 09:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: Brake Pills

I agree with brent on this and would rather spend the money on making the mechanical brakes correct than go with hydraulics . Your stopping will not improve and you screw up the originality of the car. Jack
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:34 AM   #6
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Brent, just wondering if brake jobs on an A are likely too comlicated for ametures like me? I’m a desk jocky by day but am comfortable working on my A. I’ve replaced the radiator, generator and many other items with no problems. I have read many posts about brakes being difficult to do successfully. Brakes are my next project. I tell people that my A doesn’t have “brakes” it has “wishful thinking”! Thanks in advance for your guidance.
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Old 01-26-2019, 12:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Brake Pills

A home shop needs welding equipment . It will be necessary to build up the tracks so as to center the brake shoes within the drums . If the shoes aren't centered or pretty close to centered the drums may not clear the shoes after relining . I prefer gas welding . I would only use mechanical brakes on the model A . I prefer mechanical set ups to hydraulic any day. Bleeding hydraulics is a real pain. Mechanical brakes are safer because there are no brake lines or wheel cylinders to leak fluid and cause complete brake failure . There is NO advantage to hydraulic activation over mechanical. Original brake setup has far more adjustments than hydraulic .
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Old 01-26-2019, 12:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Hi Davey,
Its very possible that the cups and or bushings are worn in the cross shafts, 3 pills will probably fall out, I have seen the bushings worn thru, if interested I have some parts that you maybe interested in, PM me your e-mail address for pictures.
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Old 01-26-2019, 05:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Hello,


I do not understand the piece "Pills". What means that?


Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-26-2019, 05:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Concave Steel Cup that fits in the wedge to lengthen the brake actuating rod, see attached photo, not to scale.
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File Type: jpg Concave Steel Cup - pill.jpg (12.0 KB, 16 views)
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Old 01-26-2019, 06:23 PM   #11
John Stone
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Default Re: Brake Pills

I always thought you were supposed to take 2 before starting to work on your brakes.
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Old 01-26-2019, 06:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Brent, misjudged the 15 Degrees a tad. Seem to work fine without going to extremes though I did use a pill on each side/ The actuating pin is 7 1/4 inches long, as purchased from Snyder's. They pull evenly and they are locked with very little effort, new cast iron drums and new bonded linings from our Randy Gross dealer. The guy will not arc shoes as it is illegal to do so in California, or so the shops tell me. Now I'm moving to the backs with welded up and straightened tracks, ect. I find the hydraulics in the cars I did put them on are a lot simpler and go years with minimal adjusting. My roadster has had one change of shoes in the 24 years I have owned it, and a left front cylinder was replaced a few years back. It stops well with 600 X 16 tires and as far as originality I bet there are very few truly original Model A, or even early V8 Fords being driven daily as mine are. Surely they have at least changed the oil, so there went the originality after the first few hundred miles. Everything since then is maintenance or restoration, but not original. Not my cup of tea, but if it makes others happy then that is a good thing. A car is only original once and if driven that is lost, it is from there on a matter of how much is lost.
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:21 PM   #13
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr T View Post
Brent, just wondering if brake jobs on an A are likely too comlicated for ametures like me? I’m a desk jocky by day but am comfortable working on my A. I’ve replaced the radiator, generator and many other items with no problems. I have read many posts about brakes being difficult to do successfully. Brakes are my next project. I tell people that my A doesn’t have “brakes” it has “wishful thinking”! Thanks in advance for your guidance.
Instead of hi-jacking this thread, why don't you start a brand new thread posing this same question and many of us can share some insights there.
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Old 01-27-2019, 05:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: Brake Pills

I would not make the rods longer by welding on them!
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Old 01-27-2019, 06:31 AM   #15
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Brake Pills

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I would not make the rods longer by welding on them!
Why??

Are we speaking of rods or pins?
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Old 01-27-2019, 05:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Thats two beers
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Old 01-28-2019, 11:19 AM   #17
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Default Re: Brake Pills

There's a you tube video of a "Master Model A Mechanic"
Showing how to do a brake job. He says instead of pills he just uses a #4-40 nut! Some master mechanic........
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Old 01-28-2019, 11:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Brake Pills

Sounding very much like severely worn drums, or worn or non-original lining thickness?

Or looking a little deeper -- possibly - a difference in the king-pins themselves(length, location of the retaining pin/slot for the king-pin relative to the head) or the position of the steering spindle located relative to the king-pin. There have been a LOT of aftermarket makers of Ford King-pins come and go over the years.

Are you looking IDENTICAL on the outside left to right? That is - is your axial (kingpin) bearing (below the "brake head" of the kingpin?) the same on both sides?

If the spindle is "lower" on one side or the other, relative to the top of the king-pin, this is the side which might require "pills" all other things (brake linings, drums, etc.) being equal.

Or - LONG REACH here - is your brake actuator shaft (presses on top of the brake actuating pin) become "twisted?" It is a key which locates the actuating pull arm relative to the brake actuator shaft/end lever.

I mean, how much can a backing plate stretch in the 7-1/2 inches between the top of the kingpin and the bottom? Answer - it can't. That extra distance has to come from SOMEWHERE.

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