Piston Ring Seating

[Glenn C.]

One of our club members, purchased a really nice 29 Tudor with a "B" engine, other than it came with a Model A head and water pump. After driving the car a couple of times, he noticed it overheating consistently after short runs.
After the usual engine checks and inspections, such as compression check, leak-down check, stethoscope check, it was decided to overhaul the engine completely.
After tear-down and hot tanking at the machine shop, cracks were found in the block between #2&3 & #3&4 power cylinders, which were repaired by the "metal lock" system.
After engine assembly, the engine water jacket had to be crack sealed to prevent water leakage into the cylinders. Model B head gasket was used.

Problems are: The vehicle continues to overheat (120F+) after only a few miles.

Without allowing the engine to idle more than a couple of seconds after shutting down to remove the spark plugs for inspection, all cylinders show signs of oil in the combustion chamber and on all the spark plugs.

Leak-down test of all cylinders, show that the rings have not been sealing.

This Model A owner probably was too passive in breaking-in his new rebuilt engine.

Question therefore is: Has anyone out there in "FordBarn" had any experience with good luck, using a powdered cleaning product, such as "BonAmi" slowly ingested (sprinkled) into the carburetor intake to facilitate re-seating of the glazed-up cylinders ?

Your help and comments would be much appreciated !

[tbirdtbird]

"Question therefore is: Has anyone out there in "FordBarn" had any experience with good luck, using a powdered cleaning product, such as "BonAmi" slowly ingested (sprinkled) into the carburetor intake to facilitate re-seating of the glazed-up cylinders ?"

NEVER EVER DO THIS

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Glenn C.,

1. Not trying to be funny, but riding on dry gravel & dirt roads with lots of dust at about 45 mph, without an air filter, will seat rings before you know it.

2. 120 F is not hot -- how hot does it get?

3. Most often overheating is caused by clogged radiator; however, sounds like a problem "B" engine running on Tylenol, Aspirin, Milk of Magnesia, Alka Seltzer, Bromo Quinine, & Vicks Vapo-Rub with lots of band aids & stiches.

4. Because of the distance from Forum members involved, & not "seeing" what you "actually" have, my most sincere best guess is to try to look for a local Model A Club to try to find a Model A Whisper that can analyze one problem at a time with "hands on."

5. He may suggest another engine.

Hope this helps.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"Question therefore is: Has anyone out there in "FordBarn" had any experience with good luck, using a powdered cleaning product, such as "BonAmi" slowly ingested (sprinkled) into the carburetor intake to facilitate re-seating of the glazed-up cylinders ?"

NEVER EVER DO THIS

I'm not suggesting anybody uses Bon Ami but this attachment is from
a Caterpillar Service Bulletin, they even had a part number for it 7F5225.

Bob

[MikeK]

Before anybody goes to the store and grabs a can of Bon-Ami, consider this: The original formula was a mix of powdered feldspar and saponified animal fat. The "new improved" modern formulation does not contain either original ingredient. You won't get the result shown in BobC 's 1948 Caterpillar service bulletin with 2014 Bon-Ami.

[tbirdtbird]

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there may be some oil in the cylinders but this is NOT the cause of the overheating.
The people working on this car do not know what they are doing.
And prolly chrome molly rings were installed which take forever to seat
and evidently cat doesn't care what happens to their bearings

[Charlie Stephens]

Is this the same vehicle that is being discussed on AHOOGA.COM? Is there a timing problem? Does the owner know how to adjust the spark lever? Is the mixture too lean? Is there a big leak at the intake manifold? Are there any modifications that we should know about?

Charlie Stephens

[H. L. Chauvin]

If using "original" Bon-Ami with original "saponification" treatment, one may have to watch the triglyceride levels of the engine, the HDL's & LDL's.

To the medications mentioned in reply #3, paragraph 3, if one uses "original" Bon-Ami, ...................... additional triglyceride engine medication may be in order such as "Tricor" & "Niaspan."

But seriously, with sincere compassion for the owner, it appears that seeking sound advice from an experienced Model A whisperer type mechanic is definitely in order, especially for a real nice Tudor -- looks like further investigation of problems is in order as opposed to trying Band-aid approaches.

[Glenn C.]

Hey Guys, I will ask a few more questions tomorrow morning (Sunday) when he shows up at 8:00 am to pick out a replacement rad from my stock for a tester. I would just like to get it running somewhat cooler, and take it for a test run myself. He has another engine too use with 1000 miles on it.

Fasten you seat belts and neck support. Hang on watching for the law !

More advice very much appreciated !!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Glenn C.

Hey Guys, I will ask a few more questions tomorrow morning (Sunday) when he shows up at 8:00 am to pick out a replacement rad from my stock for a tester. I would just like to get it running somewhat cooler, and take it for a test run myself. He has another engine too use with 1000 miles on it.

Fasten you seat belts and neck support. Hang on watching for the law !

More advice very much appreciated !!

When you said 120 degrees, did you mean 220 degrees? 120* is too cold for a running engine.

Is the engine running too hot, or is the radiator loosing coolant, then the engine gets too hot?

Plugged radiators and improper timing seem to be the leading cause of engine overheating.

[Terry,NJ]

I'm a amateur and I really don't know. But is it possible that the distributor (B Dist.?) isn't advancing enough? Or is not timed right? Just a thought.
Terry

[gweilbaker]

Terry maybe onto something, if I recall from previous posts about B and A mixed parts, there's a change to timing reference between the two and it gets very confusing on how it's done with a mix of parts.

[Glenn C.]

Thanks for the heads-up to my error in temperature. Yes it should have read 220F, but this morning my friend informed me that recently in driving his car about 15 to 20 miles the temperature got as high as 230F.

The distributor is A design.

The A head was modified to match the B block by drilling of the two coolant holes to match the two holes in the block, rather than blocking the holes in the block.

He will use the infrared scanner, on the tubes of the radiator I gave him, if he still has a problem.

[larrys40]

If it's running that hot you have a one or more of the following:
Blown Head gasket
clogged radiator
non functioning water pump
Thermostat in line which is stuck closed ( shouldn't be there anyway)

As I said... one or MORE...
To check for head gasket remove fan belt, fill radiator all the way to top, start engine, idle or fast idle and look for bubbles and burping. If present you have a head gasket combustion chamber to water jacket breach or possible cracked head/block. Head removal required for determining and repair.
Best of luck!
Larry Shepard

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

. . . And prolly chrome molly rings were installed which take forever to seat. . .

If I may, I'd like to clarify a common misconception about rings. There is no such thing as a 'chrome moly' ring. This comes from confusion with structural steel alloys that contain both elements and are named that way, like 'chrome-moly tubing'. Rings may be 1) plain iron, 2) hard hexavalent chrome plated on an iron or other base, or 3) Moly (Molybdenum) faced or filled, usually by vapor or arc deposition.

Chrome and Moly rings are two different animals. The hard chrome rings are good for 250,000 miles in a diesel rig, but require exacting prep and take a long time to seat because the cylinder also needs to wear and conform during seating. They are also useful in builds with extreme cylinder pressures, like turbos, because cylinder gas pressure goes through the top ring upper land clearance and behind the ring, forcing it tightly against the wall. The friction of a chrome ring is lower and the wear resistance greater.

Moly is a very soft material and usually seats 90% during the first 15 minutes of running. The life expectancy is about on par with standard, plain iron rings because after the initial seat you are also running on plain iron at the top and bottom edge of the ring. The disadvantage is that a good air filter is a must, as grit can imbed in the soft moly center and stay there. As the ring naturally moves a bit in the land, the grit will wear groove lines in the cyl walls. Grit ingested with standard iron or chrome rings gets scraped to one ring edge and makes its way elsewhere, usually into the oil.

[Glenn C.]

In my opinion a blown head gasket would be out of the question, as the leak down test was last completed with all the spark plugs removed, each cylinder brought to top dead center on the compression stroke with both valves closed, and each adjacent cylinder listened too, for air by-pass. Each time the water inlet and outlet were also listened too for air leakage. Only air escaping was heard through the oil filler tube.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Glenn C,

Concerning your mentioning Engine Rings, Engine Pistons, & Engine Cylinder Problems:

1. Without having my crystal ball this afternoon; &,

2. With rings not sealing; &,

3. With oil in the cylinders & on spark plugs;

4. My best guess is that it appears that the engine problem(s) lies within one of your initial comments:

"After the usual engine checks and inspections, such as compression check, leak-down check, stethoscope check, it was decided to overhaul the engine completely."

5. I.e., "who" overhauled it; "who" checked what & how was it checked; &,

6. Also, exactly "what" was done for an overhaul in addition to metal stiches.

[tbirdtbird]

A blown head gasket is NOT out of the question.
You have described methods that are not foolproof, and prolly not done on a hot engine when everything is expanded, and more likely to leak.

Larry Shepard has given you good advice. Listen to what he is saying. He has described a method that IS foolproof. I diagnose blown head gaskets on Model As and modern cars here at least 6 times a year

This motor sounds pretty messed up to me. At this point nothing is out of the question. If you do not keep an open mind this motor will never be right.

[glenn in camino]

When I first start a rebuilt engine, I rev it up and down for about 15-20 minutes. That always seats the rings. Then go out and drive it.

[tbirdtbird]

we set the rpm at 1200 and leave it there for 30 min for break-in.

we do stop after 10 min and retorque, tho....and it always takes up some.

racers set the RPM at 2000 or such and run for 30 min.

Pete might chime in.

Then we drive it 100 miles at varying speeds, never babying it, retorque 2 more times during that 100 miles, then change oil. Using only Valvoline VR-1 racing straight 30-wt.
This procedure has worked very well for us.