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Old 03-23-2018, 09:16 AM   #1
Garagekulture13
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Default Chasing the knock.

I just purchased my 2nd Model A title says 1932 but it's a 1931 to me. Any way, it has a knock. It has been sitting in an 80 year old man's house for sometime. I had a previous problem of it not running well after a carb rebuild but it was solved with another carb. The car starts good, runs good, and drives out good but does have a knock. So I started investigating. I am a novice so if you see something in the pics by all means tell me. All the lifters are free. I do see a couple new valves. Pulled the cover to inspect the timing gear and is worn pretty badly. I have a new one on the way. I just tried to drain the oil and when I pulled the plug nothing came out. I had to stick a screwdriver in the hole to get the oil to come out. I then dropped the pan. Other than about a half inch of sludge I didn't find anything in the pan. Video is just for noise reference and was taken when I was trying to figure out the carb problem.

https://youtu.be/3R3eLKlvVmU

https://youtu.be/X1Jxiqp16Xw

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Old 03-23-2018, 09:28 AM   #2
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

you do have a dipper tray in your pan don't you?
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
you do have a dipper tray in your pan don't you?
The tray in the pan? Yes. I removed it to get to the sludge and get the pan cleaned.

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Old 03-23-2018, 09:42 AM   #4
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Backfiring could be a stuck valve. That's what mine was.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/iClD1SDIi2GlozyZ2

Fixed it:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DfOHWJclaOtRwhMv2
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Any way, it has a knock. It has been sitting in an 80 year old man's house for sometime. I had a previous problem of it not running well after a carb rebuild but it was solved with another carb. The car starts good, runs good, and drives out good but does have a knock. So I started investigating. I am a novice so if you see something in the pics by all means tell me. All the lifters are free. I do see a couple new valves. Pulled the cover to inspect the timing gear and is worn pretty badly. I have a new one on the way. I just tried to drain the oil and when I pulled the plug nothing came out. I had to stick a screwdriver in the hole to get the oil to come out. I then dropped the pan. Other than about a half inch of sludge I didn't find anything in the pan.
Did you not check the oil level on the dipstick when you bought it?
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:45 AM   #6
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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Originally Posted by jwilliams81 View Post
Backfiring could be a stuck valve.
From what I could see all the valves are moving freely. After the new carb and new plug contactor it no longer back fired.

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Old 03-23-2018, 09:46 AM   #7
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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Originally Posted by katy View Post
Did you not check the oil level on the dipstick when you bought it?
I did and it was spot on level with no sludge on the dipstick.

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Old 03-23-2018, 10:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Can you tell about where the knock seems to be coming from ?

Have you checked the lash of the timing gears ? Anything more than about .009" and they'll rattle. Yours don't look very good from the picture, but, checking the lash is whats needed.

Running the engine with the timing pin inserted and putting pressure on the gear is sometimes a good way to determine if the gear is bad/worn.
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:23 AM   #9
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

That thing needs a bath....before you clean valve chamber block crank and cam oil passages with wood dowels so you dont get debris in them
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
Can you tell about where the knock seems to be coming from ?

Have you checked the lash of the timing gears ? Anything more than about .009" and they'll rattle. Yours don't look very good from the picture, but, checking the lash is whats needed.

Running the engine with the timing pin inserted and putting pressure on the gear is sometimes a good way to determine if the gear is bad/worn.
I ran with the side cover off and it sounded to me to be coming from the front of the engine. That's what led me to pull the timing gear cover. I will check the lash.

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Old 03-23-2018, 10:33 AM   #11
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

That fiber gear can have a bad sounding knock when it is worn!!
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:38 AM   #12
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I've had a couple of motors that looked like this. By the amount of dirt and sludge and the timing gear I'd say the oil wasn't changed often. Look at the scoring on # 2 and 3 cylinders. The Pistons are probley slapping.
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Your car was likely built in 1932, but is of all 1931 parts. A friend of mine has a wide-bed pickup registered like that. Good luck with finding and fixing you noise.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:11 AM   #14
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

It is really hard to tell by the picture, but it looks like your timing gear teeth are worn real bad.
To find the noise it is best to short out each cylinder one at a time. Do this before you tear it down. This way you can tell if it is a rod, main, or piston. It also tells you which cylinder or which main is knocking. It would not tell you if it is a timing gear.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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Originally Posted by George Miller View Post
It is really hard to tell by the picture, but it looks like your timing gear teeth are worn real bad.
To find the noise it is best to short out each cylinder one at a time. Do this before you tear it down. This way you can tell if it is a rod, main, or piston. It also tells you which cylinder or which main is knocking. It would not tell you if it is a timing gear.
I did this but not really any change in the knock.

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Old 03-23-2018, 11:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Since the pan is off, you should check the rod and main bearing clearances with plastigage, and check the babbitt condition of the caps. There are lots of threads on this in the search function. I also put 4x4 block of wood under the front wheels--the extra room makes things easier.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Just for comparison, here is a laminated fiber gear with about 1500 miles on it.
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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Originally Posted by 1955cj5 View Post
Just for comparison, here is a laminated fiber gear with about 1500 miles on it.
Good gosh mine is wore out!

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Old 03-23-2018, 12:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I did just notice both motor mount bolts are loose and I have not touched either.

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Old 03-23-2018, 03:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Might be a good time to yank that engine and go through it carefully. The dirt and sludge can't be doing anything but hurting. The car is nice enough to deserve a pretty, quiet engine, and give you a ton of piece of mind while you enjoy it.
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

If you don't replace the crankshaft gear it will eat the new camshaft gear again
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Looks like a couple of engines that I have had.

Just for conversation. Engine looks really dirty and we know timing gear is shoot. Without knowing what the knock sounds like. If it were mine. I would put in a new timing gear. Clean everything, including screen on oil pump. Than put it back together. Put in 4 1/2 quarts of 20-50 HD motor oil and one 16 oz blue bottle of STP. Five quarts needed because you removed oil pan. Fresh gas with MMO. Oil the distributor. Grease the throw out bearing. Grease everything. Check steering box, transmission, and rear end. Don’t forget u joint (I use John Deere Cornhead grease) also in steering box.

If your lucky, after running for awhile, it will be fine. If not, than we all have to talk again.

Change oil again after a couple hundred miles. Good luck. Enjoy.

As I said before. Car looks good. 80 year old owner, might have not seen maintenance it needed for a few years. Doesn’t mean the old owner did not love car.
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHN View Post
Looks like a couple of engines that I have had.

Just for conversation. Engine looks really dirty and we know timing gear is shoot. Without knowing what the knock sounds like. If it were mine. I would put in a new timing gear. Clean everything, including screen on oil pump. Than put it back together. Put in 4 1/2 quarts of 20-50 HD motor oil and one 16 oz blue bottle of STP. Five quarts needed because you removed oil pan. Fresh gas with MMO. Oil the distributor. Grease the throw out bearing. Grease everything. Check steering box, transmission, and rear end. Donít forget u joint (I use John Deere Cornhead grease) also in steering box.

If your lucky, after running for awhile, it will be fine. If not, than we all have to talk again.

Change oil again after a couple hundred miles. Good luck. Enjoy.

As I said before. Car looks good. 80 year old owner, might have not seen maintenance it needed for a few years. Doesnít mean the old owner did not love car.
Yes. This pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

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Old 03-23-2018, 07:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

engine was run with non-detergent oil to have that kind of sludge all over
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Agree with Farrell in Vancover. The engine is old, dirty and the knock is substantial. You can dick around with various things piecemeal for a long time trying one thing at a time. My personal opinion is that the noise is not coming from a fibre camshaft gear, although it may well need to be replaced, or not, depending on measurements. The photos are inconclusive. The fibre gears rarely make noise like that. Tear it down and do it right. The car is really good looking and deserves a good engine.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
engine was run with non-detergent oil to have that kind of sludge all over


I agree.
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:52 AM   #27
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

A couple of years ago my A was making a faint knocking type of noise that no one could isolate....using stethoscope or wood dowels. It ran fine, but got slightly worse over time. Then, one day, I decided to take it to our local Model A mechanic, but on the way, it suddenly quite running. Had it towed via AAA to his garage.....a couple of hours later we determined the fiber timing gear had stripped out, and replaced it with a new laminated one. Noise was gone; in this case it was a fiber timing gear going bad....yours sounds much worse, so may well be something else, but those gears need replacing in any event.
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Old 03-24-2018, 07:03 AM   #28
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Everyone, including me, has our own idea of what could be going on with your engine.

As I mentioned to you earlier. I have had a couple of cars that looked the same way, and sounded very much like yours.

Many years ago we pulled a Model A out of a barn that it had been sitting in for over 35 years. When we got it running it was making all kinds of different sounds. We pulled pan and it looked like yours, timings gear was also shoot.

We rebuilt oil pump, replaced timing gear, cleaned oil pan, put back together. Started engine using oil I mentioned in earlier post. It ran great, but still had a couple of light knock type sounds. Added rebuilt distributor and leakless water pump. Engine now ran right. The little valve noise it had went away after some driving with the MMO in gas and the high detergent motor oil doing its job.

It’s 40 years later, and that same engine is still running strong. No noise, great compression, no knocks or smoke.

If you rebuild you still are going to need a good distributor and water pump. Plus other things.

If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it. What will it cost you? Gaskets and a timing gear that you need anyway.

Your car looks like it was well cared for. I would take a chance. Good luck. Enjoy.
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:28 AM   #29
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Did you run it with the fan belt off to make sure the noise is not coming from the fan, water pump or generator and their pulleys? Cracked fan blades will make a lot of noise when engine is running.

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Old 03-24-2018, 09:31 AM   #30
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Re: my above post regarding cracked fan blade. Inspect it carefully before you run the engine to look for cracks near the hub. You don't want to be anywhere near a blade when it lets loose.

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Old 03-24-2018, 10:53 AM   #31
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lona View Post
Did you run it with the fan belt off to make sure the noise is not coming from the fan, water pump or generator and their pulleys? Cracked fan blades will make a lot of noise when engine is running.

Glen
Yes I did. Knock still there.

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Old 03-24-2018, 11:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I agree with WHN. Clean out the pan and oil pump screen. Replace the timing gear. Start it up and see what happens. I had 2 fiber timing gears wear out and create a knock. I replaced the second fiber timing gear with an aluminum timing gear. No more problems..
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Old 03-24-2018, 11:20 AM   #33
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Service your main and rod bearings..looks like there are shims on the rods but couldn't tell if the mains have any shims from the picture.No main bearing shims? she's on her last go round,time to start looking for a good babbit man..
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Old 03-24-2018, 06:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

How did you run it with the valve cover off?? If your oil pump was pumping properly ( dirty screen) then all your oil would be on the floor.
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Reckon you are going deeper than a timing gear and a clean up..there are some suspicious looking items on your lower end..2,3 and 4 rods look newer than 1..the cylinder walls are badly glazed...center main bearing left bolt is turned,wonder if it has a cotter pin or if its loose The front main bearing appears to have no shims at all. Got any history on this engine?
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:41 PM   #36
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Back when I was in college my A developed a knock. After pulling it down my timing gear was badly worn--replaced it knock went away. Good chance that yours is the problem
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Old 03-25-2018, 07:17 AM   #37
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

To add, I too would check/adjust the crank bearings [ and check/adjust oil pump clearances] as long as the base is off for the cleaning.

I like to set bearings at .0015" [ the rear even a bit tighten if I can]
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Old 03-25-2018, 06:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Honestly my opinion would to pull the motor and go for a rebuild once and for all. Even if you fix the knock, looks like that motor doesn't have much life left. and be careful if you do drop the mains/rods caps. ive had a few were the Babbitt basically fell apart soon as i dropped it.
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:18 PM   #39
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

A worn out Cam Button (spring) will make one knock.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:55 AM   #40
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Well I got this far today. I hope this is evidence this is my knock. Also that's my son at the end. He had to get in there and help.

https://youtu.be/lDI6grnm-Z0

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Old 03-26-2018, 01:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

At least you're not afraid to "get into it".
Keep us updated.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:13 PM   #42
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Well I got this far today. I hope this is evidence this is my knock. Also that's my son at the end. He had to get in there and help.

https://youtu.be/lDI6grnm-Z0

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If your just replacing the timing gear. That could have been done without removing the front of car. You can do it even with the hood left on.

Remove generator, fan belt, timing gear cover, timing gear. Than reverse process, and your done. Couple of hours work.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:33 PM   #43
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I think that is a neat video!

You can sure hear and see that cam gear "slap" when the valve spring pressure on it changes.

I did about the same amount of disassembly when I got mine home, only it was to change the leaking water pump and four blade fan.

No better way to learn how to disassemble and reassemble a Model A and a good opportunity to back flush the radiator.

I've had it apart three or four times since then.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:43 PM   #44
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Thank You For All The Great Pic's Some Of The Best I Have Seen On Ford barn
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:51 PM   #45
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Don't know if changing the gear will cure your knock,but it will run better that's for sure.Valve timing that far out is bad..bet it wouldn't pull your hat off
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:05 PM   #46
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac View Post
How did you run it with the valve cover off?? If your oil pump was pumping properly ( dirty screen) then all your oil would be on the floor.
It was all over the floor, fender, etc. LoL

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Old 03-26-2018, 09:08 PM   #47
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If your just replacing the timing gear. That could have been done without removing the front of car. You can do it even with the hood left on.

Remove generator, fan belt, timing gear cover, timing gear. Than reverse process, and your done. Couple of hours work.
After further inspection I could see the crank gear had some pitting in one area. That pitted area coincided with the worn area on the timing gear. I assume someone replaced the timing gear at some point and did not replace the crank gear explaining the premature failure of the timing gear. So I plan to replace both.

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Old 03-26-2018, 10:01 PM   #48
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Nice Job !!
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:32 PM   #49
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

The knock sounds familiar and my guess is the timing gear is worn. You can do a simple test to identify if it is the timing gear. Remove the timing pin on the bottom front of engine. Start the engine and slowly insert the timing pin into the timing hole with the rounded end of pin. Push the pin against the cam gear and if the knocking noise changes, gets softer this means it needs to be replaced. Usually the wear occurs on the ID of the gear or the nut can come loose creating excessive backlash.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:17 PM   #50
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Just checked the backlash on the cam gear and it looks terrible. What exactly does this mean?

https://youtu.be/ttluk5eYS_U

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Old 03-27-2018, 01:12 PM   #51
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

It just means that your fiber timing gear is so worn that as the engine is running and driving the timing will be constantly advancing or retarding because of the sloppiness of the meshing of the gears. its operation will be very inconsistent. When you put your new cam gear in you will notice a very nice even running engine.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:09 AM   #52
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

It means you valve timing does not correspond with your piston position.basically your fixing a performance issue hoping it fixes a knock...
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:52 PM   #53
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Crankshaft gear I got from Snyder's differs from the gear I removed. When I line up the keyways you can see the teeth are about half a tooth off. Also the timing marks are 1 tooth different. Would this not throw the timing off?

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Old 03-28-2018, 03:25 PM   #54
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Visibly loose in the timing gears! Keep up the good work.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:40 PM   #55
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Also my timing cover camshaft plunger is shower some wear. The X is still visible and I would assume it's still good. Your thoughts? Also spring feels stiff. I believe it to be good.

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Old 03-28-2018, 03:49 PM   #56
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

That is probably a gear from the 70ts. They were off a bout a 1/2 tooth. Good thing you went all the way and found it. It will have more power now.
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:54 PM   #57
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I also hope you are going with a good cam gear. bronze is the best, alum gear next, then laminated next, macerated is junk in my book.
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Old 03-28-2018, 04:26 PM   #58
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Ok. New gears and still have crazy backlash. So what is this telling me? I see hundreds of post about backlash but have yet to see one say what it means if you have a lot.

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Old 03-28-2018, 04:38 PM   #59
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Your latest picture doesn't show gear backlash. It appears to me to show crankshaft endplay. 2 different animals.

Gear back lash is checked by inserting feeler gauges between the crank gear and cam gear teeth. As mentioned before it should be in the .004-.007" range. If a .010" strip will slide thru, you still have too much lash.
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Old 03-28-2018, 04:57 PM   #60
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
Your latest picture doesn't show gear backlash. It appears to me to show crankshaft endplay. 2 different animals.

Gear back lash is checked by inserting feeler gauges between the crank gear and cam gear teeth. As mentioned before it should be in the .004-.007" range. If a .010" strip will slide thru, you still have too much lash.
Thanks for clearing that up. I understand now. The gear in the picture is the camshaft.

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Old 03-28-2018, 08:57 PM   #61
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

camshaft endplay isnt important,its held in place by that spring and plunger you were asking about earlier..tell us how much crankshaft endplay you have..
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:15 PM   #62
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Just so you know, the X on the plunger is to keep the oil lubricating it.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:50 AM   #63
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I would either replace that plunger or face it off and recut the grooves.
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Old 03-30-2018, 06:40 AM   #64
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I'm new here and am only now looking to buy my first A but I had a knock in on off-topic '53 Stovebolt 6. I spent a year chasing that thing an this was after a full rebuild of the motor (done by me). I and everyone who listened said the noise was at the back of the block. It wasn't until I invested $5 at Harbor Freight for a motor stethoscope that I found the issue. It was a loose dampener on the lower pulley slamming into the crank and sending the sound along the whole crank.

Anyway, it looks like you're on the right track but if not pick up one of those stethoscopes and listed to EVERYTHING.

That and I agree with others your car is beautiful - I'd refresh that motor in a second!

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Old 03-30-2018, 08:17 AM   #65
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

The model a engine requires periodic maintenance to maintain optimum performance.If the engine still has babbit rod and main bearings one should check the bearing oil clearance,and remove shims if necessary.When chasing a knock this step is vital,not only for longevity of the engine but proper diagnosis,an over spec rod or main clearance is one of the main reasons for a knock.
So many neglect this basic maintenance item with catastrophic results,bearing failure leads to expensive engine overhauls. A hobbyist with basic skills and attention to detail can perform this task,and should every time the oil pan is off.To back up this repair on an engine in this condition,light honing the cylinders and replacing rings along with hand lapping the valves insures proper performance.
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:28 PM   #66
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I'm still pecking away at it. Trying to clean and paint what I can get to at this point. Also I realize my oil pump holder device is crude at best but it worked in a pinch. I will keep everyone up to date on my progress. Thanks to all for the help thus far.

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Old 04-03-2018, 01:41 PM   #67
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I can’t believe how much you have gotten done in such a short time.

Please tell us how it runs when you get it back together.

Looks great.
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Old 04-03-2018, 02:34 PM   #68
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Looks good. I don't see a cotter pin in the fan nut, if that's an original fan
now would be a good time to throw it in the trash.

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Old 04-03-2018, 11:09 PM   #69
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Yes Sir look out for the fan. We had one blade fly off in a 52 ford truck, as we headed down the highway. Thought someone shot at us. The blade almost went through the hood!
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:12 PM   #70
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I meant to add that you are doing a very nice job. And the best way is to do it yourself. Now you will be able to help out a fellow Model A person when the question comes up!
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:39 AM   #71
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
Looks good. I don't see a cotter pin in the fan nut, if that's an original fan
now would be a good time to throw it in the trash.

Bob
I just saw this post after I got the radiator back in and the wiring done. You are correct there is no cotter pin and the nut is not down far enough to get one in.

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Old 04-05-2018, 09:42 AM   #72
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Is the throttle linkage supposed to be curved like this or is it supposed to be flat? Straight up? I'm referring to the "U" shaped bracket that bolts to the back of the motor.

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Old 04-05-2018, 10:45 AM   #73
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Looks like some one put a washer between the nut and fan, that is probably
why you can't get the cotter pin in. The throttle control should be straight,
they get bent when you jack the front of the engine up without removing them first.

Bob

Last edited by Bob C; 04-06-2018 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Bad info, Tom is right.
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Old 04-05-2018, 06:13 PM   #74
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

The throttle linkage bracket is correct as pictured. It curves forward for proper clearance. It has two holes that need to be oiled also, besides oiling the bellcrank.
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:16 PM   #75
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Ok. I bent it back as I was first told it was supposed to be straight. Once I did this it now is hitting the body. So is it supposed to be bent or straight? I thought I had gone to far but now after the 2nd comment believe maybe it was correct to begin with. Any help??

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Old 04-05-2018, 11:27 PM   #76
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Any help?


Yes, I posted the help already.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:42 PM   #77
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
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Any help?


Yes, I posted the help already.
Thank you sir. I will try and bend it back in the morning.

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Old 04-05-2018, 11:54 PM   #78
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Reply #9 in this thread shows my 1928 linkage is close to the block, as it should be.


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...e+pictures+Tom
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:12 AM   #79
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

The good news the car is back together. The bad news is it won't hit. Assumably it's something to do with timing. I checked the timing with the pin in, piston TDC, and the rotor button at the correct spot.

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Old 04-06-2018, 12:25 PM   #80
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Throttle linkage trick, Pick up a bunch at swap meets. Even if they are bent up. What's bent on one might be straight elsewhere. Almost all will need massaging and there are about 6 variants over the 4 years of production. Fortunately they are usually cheap and don't take much space on the shelf.
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:19 AM   #81
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

When the pin drops into the cam gear dimple, the rotor should be exactly as in this picture.
I'd loose the rubber fuel line, and run steel all the way.
The points should be adjusted to .020".
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Old 04-07-2018, 10:51 AM   #82
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

This gas line and filter should work on your indented firewall car with the
non side bowl carburetor. http://www.mikes-afordable.com/product/A9155L.html

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Old 04-07-2018, 05:07 PM   #83
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

About the fuel line that is a carb I borrowed. My carb has the side sediment bowl and it will be going back on. It fits the current fuel line.

Sorry but being in a rush before work while doing my final timing checks I left the rotor button out. That's why she wouldn't fire. But she is back together and running. You be the judge of whether the new gears fixed the knock.

Before
https://youtu.be/3R3eLKlvVmU

After
https://youtu.be/C-MMJRXug8E

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Old 04-07-2018, 06:32 PM   #84
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Sounds a lot better than it did ! !
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:41 PM   #85
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

What's the sound like in SLO idle

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Old 04-07-2018, 06:58 PM   #86
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Lower idle

https://youtu.be/DeSld6LHVcg

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Old 04-07-2018, 08:37 PM   #87
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
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Lower idle

https://youtu.be/DeSld6LHVcg

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I really can't tell on that video do you think the knock is gone

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Old 04-07-2018, 09:02 PM   #88
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garagekulture13 View Post
About the fuel line that is a carb I borrowed. My carb has the side sediment bowl and it will be going back on. It fits the current fuel line.

Sorry but being in a rush before work while doing my final timing checks I left the rotor button out. That's why she wouldn't fire. But she is back together and running. You be the judge of whether the new gears fixed the knock.

Before
https://youtu.be/3R3eLKlvVmU

After
https://youtu.be/C-MMJRXug8E

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I think it sounds good!

You sure got rid of all that clattering...
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Old 04-10-2018, 12:54 PM   #89
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

How difficult was it to remove the crankshaft timing gear? Can be tough. Good sounds after all of the work, a good introduction to the more common Model A's miseries and cures. You might try an even slower idle with less advance and idle speed screw. When setting timing do it at the third notch in the up position. That way, when you're so inclined, you can go levers up and see how slow and quiet an A can really be.
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Old 04-11-2018, 07:44 PM   #90
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

The knock is gone. I still can hear some what I believe to be some valve clatter. Nothing drastic. The car has set up for some time so I hope with some drive time things will get settled in. I put in VR1 20-50 oil in and Marvel Mystery oil in the gas. Also with some of the inspection panels off when I was driving it I could hear some noise from the trans. When I got back I found it was low so I added some 600W to it and so far that has fixed that. I believe to be lucky and the crank gear came off pretty easy. I noticed the gear puller with the finer threads pulled it off when the puller with the more course threads wouldn't do much.

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Old 04-11-2018, 08:17 PM   #91
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I'm told those aluminum cam gears can make a little noise.

If the transmission was low better check the rear end if you haven't already.

Nice work and informative posts!
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Old 04-12-2018, 07:58 AM   #92
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Aluminum gear can rattle,even if they backlash correctly. Now that you have it running right did you check the rod and main bearing clearances? it would suck to see all this work ultimately hammer out a loose bearing..
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:14 PM   #93
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I did not check clearances. However today I noticed while running around 40 mph I could bring the timing lever up about a quarter of the way and the motor would quite down. What's the reason fo this?

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Old 04-12-2018, 03:24 PM   #94
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Sounds Great, Congrats on a job well done!
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:48 PM   #95
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
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I did not check clearances. However today I noticed while running around 40 mph I could bring the timing lever up about a quarter of the way and the motor would quite down. What's the reason fo this?

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Probably worn bearings/pistons. Retarding the timing lowers combustion pressure thus making rattles quiet down. This was an old used car dealer trick to sell a clunker. The engine would sound good until the new owner had it tuned up. Setting the timing to proper specs would bring on the knocking.
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:32 PM   #96
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

You for sure want to check clearances, many things can click and clack without causing much trouble, if the bearings are loose they will get worse a lot faster.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:27 PM   #97
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

This happened last night on the way home. When I started the car at work I noticed right away it sounded different. I work 2nd shift and got off at 11pm. So I decided it was a nice night I'd run by the lake on the way home. When I left the lake I noticed I had it to the floor and she didn't want to pull anymore. I was running about 45mph. The headlights were pulsing and when I got home I saw the driverside light was very dim. I don't know how or if it's all related. I'm just telling what happened. Once home she was running very poorly but she DID get me home. I pulled the plugs and found #4 was fouled and #3 was looking bad also. No gas smell on the plugs and the car never has smoked. I did mess with the metal shielded wire that runs up from the dash panel up to the light under the dash rail while sitting in the parking lot at work. It looked like it was pinched.

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Old 04-14-2018, 04:36 PM   #98
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I may have missed it on an earlier thread but did you check the oil pump? A 29 that I worked on had a terrible knock and all it needed was the oil pump cleaned.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:40 PM   #99
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

What was the ammeter showing when this was happening?

Bob
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:52 PM   #100
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

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What was the ammeter showing when this was happening?

Bob
It was more or less pegged to the right.

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Old 04-14-2018, 06:16 PM   #101
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

See how it runs in the daytime with lights off kind of sounds like you have a short somewhere in the light system

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Old 04-14-2018, 08:10 PM   #102
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I just saw this. They all are worn but #4 pin on the distributor body is badly worn.

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Old 04-14-2018, 08:13 PM   #103
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

I have been watching this thread from the start I must say I have learned a lot from it but I cannot believe how many multiple problems that you have had with this new car for as nice as this car is I cannot believe the previous owner did any kind of maintenance on it to keep it reliable. But hang in there you're getting it and by the way how did your motor sound when you got it out and driving it

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Old 04-14-2018, 10:00 PM   #104
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

This could cause some of the ignition problem, I think a new brass wired distributor would be best to pick up. Sounds like your lighting issues are robbing power from the ignition as well. The fact that it came up when you were driving with your headlights on is a clue towards the root of the problem. That amp gauge it telling you that there is a major draw or short somewhere. Keep being aggressive with it, you will figure it out.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:00 AM   #105
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Agree with Michael a. Am surprised this thread has moved from a knock to other things, the latest being ignition. Kinda curious how far and into what issues it goes. Not a problem with me, just sort of unusual.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:26 AM   #106
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garagekulture13 View Post
I just saw this. They all are worn but #4 pin on the distributor body is badly worn.

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Les Andrew's book recommends .025" gap rotor to distributor body contact. Section 2 page 18..

A discussion here:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5980



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Old 04-15-2018, 06:35 PM   #107
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

These are all basic maintenance with use issues.

This looks to be a nice car that was most likely loved by the previous owner. The guy is 80 years old. He probably could no longer care for car. Give him a brake. That’s why it was sold.

Body looks good, engine now sounds good, interior is good. Cars 90 years old. Every used car today will need some service work.

Every Model A that I have owned needed basic maintenance work. I have replaced the timing gear and done a complete tune up on everyone we have owned. Somethings are basic, need to be checked, on these cars.

Sludge in oil pan, timing gear, wiring, springs, brakes, front end, steering box, shocks, radiator, clutch, carburetor, gas tank, anyone who wants a good running car knows the list.

Nice paint, good interior, side mounts and trunks, they could be lipstick on a pig if the other things aren’t right.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:52 PM   #108
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Checking bearing clearance is part of routine maintenance and should be done when you have the pan off a 'new to you' used engine. inspect the cylinder walls to determine if you need to pull the head and slide out the pistons for inspection,you should check the valves at that time.The reason you do this is to save money,the earlier you catch the wear the less it can cost..
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:26 AM   #109
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Does the distributor shaft wobble?
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Old 04-17-2018, 02:02 PM   #110
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

Distributor did not have any wobble. Headlight was the mounting nut. A quarter turn and it lit right up. I put a new distributor body on and drove the car into work today. Roughly 10 miles. Pulled #4 plug (brand new) in the parking lot and this is what it looks like. I plan to make an adapter to run a compression test at work tonight. I will update on my findings.

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Old 04-18-2018, 04:05 PM   #111
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Default Re: Chasing the knock.

As many already guessed the motor is wore out. I believe the old man took me. Cylinders 1,2, and 4 are reading 50#s. Cylinder 3 is reading 25#s. The following pictures are of a valve in 3 cylinder. Also the plug after about 20 miles and then an additional 20 miles. I guess it's time to look for an engine builder. I hope to find one close I can drive too.

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