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Old 09-03-2016, 01:26 PM   #1
Al 29Tudor
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Default Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Hi Gents,
We are in the middle of dis-assembling a 1928 differential.
In Les Andrews red book, page 1-95 picture in lower right hand corner he shows two gear teeth with wear patterns and text says, "move pinion forward" and "move pinion back"
I don't think there is any adjustment for pinion other than Preload.
Am I missing something.
Thanks for your help.
Al Leach, Venice, FL
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:05 PM   #2
Tom Endy
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

The only way you can move the pinion forward or back is to either take a cut on the bearing stop on the pinion or add shims. I don't believe any of this is necessary. I have never found shims on a pinion and I have had a great many apart.

Once the pre-load is set on the carrier and pinion bearings a backlash adjustment is made by shifting the banjo gasket Left\right. This moves the ring gear either closer or farther away from the pinion. The pinion is straight down the center line of the car and you cannot shift it left\right.

Suggestion:

Got to the web site of the Santa Anita A's of Arcadia, California at www.santaanitaas.org . Put your cursor on "Technical Reference" , my name will drop down below. Click on it and it will bring up a menu of technical articles. Scroll to the three on differentials. You can download them. This may be of help.

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Old 09-03-2016, 03:31 PM   #3
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Thank you Tom.
Sent you a PM earlier.
Yes, I didn't see any provision for adjustment of the pinion other than pre-load.
Your tutorial from earlier this year on the 1928 differential has been really an excellent guide for our project.
I'm setting up a step by step list of everything to do with a check box so we don't miss anything.
Thank you again.
Al Leach
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:48 PM   #4
Tom Endy
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al 29Tudor View Post
Thank you Tom.
Sent you a PM earlier.
Yes, I didn't see any provision for adjustment of the pinion other than pre-load.
Your tutorial from earlier this year on the 1928 differential has been really an excellent guide for our project.
I'm setting up a step by step list of everything to do with a check box so we don't miss anything.
Thank you again.
Al Leach


You need the 2014 tutorial, it is pretty much a check list.

Tom Endy
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Old 09-03-2016, 06:07 PM   #5
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

OK Tom, I'll get it
Thanks again.
Al
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:53 AM   #6
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Remember, as to the ring gear tooth contact area, you try to get a PEANUT shaped area, CENTERED on the ring gear TOOTH!
Bill W.
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:54 AM   #7
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Thank you Bill.
We will try to get that pattern.
Tomorrow we will install another members engine and then get back to the rear-end project full time. (well full time ???)
Al
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:59 AM   #8
Jim Brierley
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Both articles by Tom and Les are very good. I do have a disagreement with Les when his book says to bolt both axle housing halves together to get a preliminary pre-load check. (or words to that effect). Bolting the halves together without shims (gaskets) can bend the housings and result in leaks. I recommend bolting the left housing on,(I use only 4 bolts at this ( time) place the assembly on end and slip the right side on. Now measure the gap between the housing and the center section. This will tell you how many gaskets to use. Now install half that thickness on both sides and check backlash. This is time consuming but worth the effort. Just my opinion!
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:01 AM   #9
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Seems to me the depth of the pocket for the pinion double cup was changed at the same time the gusset was added. either on vince's or marco's site for the drawing...
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:44 PM   #10
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Jim,
I think Les starts with an equal number of shims on each side and reduces from there.
Your comment explains why - so the housings are not distorted.
Thanks.
Al
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Old 09-04-2016, 02:55 PM   #11
Tom Endy
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
Both articles by Tom and Les are very good. I do have a disagreement with Les when his book says to bolt both axle housing halves together to get a preliminary pre-load check. (or words to that effect). Bolting the halves together without shims (gaskets) can bend the housings and result in leaks. I recommend bolting the left housing on,(I use only 4 bolts at this ( time) place the assembly on end and slip the right side on. Now measure the gap between the housing and the center section. This will tell you how many gaskets to use. Now install half that thickness on both sides and check backlash. This is time consuming but worth the effort. Just my opinion!

My technique is to bolt the right axle housing to the right side of the banjo with no gaskets and torque the bolts down to 35 ft. lbs. With the carrier assembly installed I add two .010 gaskets to the left side of the banjo and attached the left axle housing and begin pulling all the bolts down toward 35 ft. lbs. stopping periodically to check that I can turn the ring gear with my finger by reaching in through the torque tube flange on the banjo. If I feel it getting too tight I stop and add one or more gaskets. In this manner no strain is put on any of the hardware.

Two .010 gaskets is the least amount of gaskets I want to end up with. Anything less and there is liable to be an oil leak.

Tom Endy
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Old 09-04-2016, 05:21 PM   #12
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

I'm putting this out there to see if I understand the procedures.

1. Carrier pre-load. Assemble and install carrier, no spider or axles, bolt up both axle housings. Add spacers under carrier bearing races in axle housings until carrier won't turn. (Is it ever necessary to shim the races?)

2. Bolt up banjo and right axle housing and set in carrier. Add minimum of two .010 gaskets, then bolt up left axle housing, maybe more gaskets, until carrier turns snugly, making sure I never bind up or distort the axle housings.

3. Now divide the gaskets 1/2 on each side and proceed to pinion and ring gear pattern and backlash. Always keeping the same gasket stack and locating the gaskets to either side as required to achieve proper wear pattern and backlash.

Please correct me or confirm I got it right.
Thank you Tom and Jim for your time and patience.
Al
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:41 PM   #13
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Tom,
[1. Carrier pre-load. Assemble and install carrier, no spider or axles, bolt up both axle housings. Add spacers under carrier bearing races in axle housings until carrier won't turn. (Is it ever necessary to shim the races?)]
Page 34 of your 2014 dissertation answers this question and states any shims required can go under the bearing - easier than the race in the axle housing.
Next get a handle on the yoke.
Wow!
Al Leach
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:00 PM   #14
Dave in MN
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Default Let's consider shimming the pinion gear

Sorry, I have not read Les Andrews section in his book about shimming the pinion. I am offering the following from a recent experience regarding the ill fit of a new 4:11 gearset.

Last year, early in the driving season, I lost a tooth on my 4:11 gearset when the double nuts on the pinion gear loosened. I ordered a replacement 4:11 set and installed it using Tom Endy's very detailed write-up. Upon completion and with the maximum number of gaskets shifted to lessen the backlash between the pinion gear and the ring gear, I still had an excessive amount of backlash in the neighborhood of .070".

Not being satisfied with this amount, I contacted Steve Becker at Bert's who gave me the name and contact info of the manufacturer of the gearset. The manufacturer coached me on the procedure of centering the pinion gear to the ring gear prior to starting the assembly procedure. I determined I needed and then machined a shim that was .067" to place between the pinion gear and the first tapered bearing. With this shim in place and again using Tom Endy's procedure, I was able to obtain about .005" backlash with adequate but not excessive gaskets to provide a good seal to the components. The assembled rear end is very quiet and took us to Loveland and back this summer.

Because of the difficulty I had with acheiving proper backlash in my own rearend assembly, I decided to put on a differential rebuilding clinic at my workshop. There were about 20 local club members in attendance for each session. I held one session where we took two assemblies apart and evaluated their condition and developed a list of repairs to complete and components to purchase for restoration. After the components were repaired and new parts purchased, I hosted two additional Saturday sessions where we assembled the differentials. One assembly needed shims at the pinion gear to get the backlash exactly where we wanted it. The other assembly did not require any shims.

It is often said or assumed you can only get the backlash as good as the shifting of gaskets will allow. This statement is true if you don't try adding shims between the pinion gear and the first or rear tapered bearing you press on to the pinion. The bearing shims sold in .005" thickness for shimming the carrier races can be used between the pinion gear and the rear bearing that is pressed on to the pinion. They fit the components perfectly. During the clinic I hosted, we did use 7 of these shims to obtain the proper pinion gear centering on one differential.

An interesting side to all of this was that when the pinion was properly centered and the backlash was correct, we had a good contact pattern when checking the assembled components with yellow bearing grease laced with yellow pigment.

The first photo (white lithium grease) shows the contact pattern before shimming the pinion gear. It has a bad pattern with the pinion gear teeth riding over the edge or crest of the ring gear teeth. This state would not last long. This contact pattern was the best I could achieve by just shifting gaskets at the pumpkin. Excessive backlash was very evident in this case. This was a new 4:11 gearset.

The next two photos show a more centered engagement on both the thrust and coast side of the 4:11 ring gear. This pattern was achieved with shims (.067") at the pinion as described above. The backlash was about .005".

Good Day!
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Last edited by Dave in MN; 09-06-2016 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Adding photos
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Old 09-04-2016, 09:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Bad memory it was the axel housing that was changed

http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/rearend.htm
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Old 09-05-2016, 06:44 AM   #16
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Thank you Dave,
That's great information and I have filed it for our project.
Our banjo is cracked at four tube mounting holes/bosses so a new banjo may require shimming.
Thank you again,
Al Leach
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Old 09-05-2016, 07:00 AM   #17
Ed Saniewski
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Dave, any chance someone recorded the work session and could post it on youtube? A class like that would be wonderful to share with us. Thanks, Ed Saniewski
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Old 09-05-2016, 09:56 AM   #18
Jim Brierley
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

I find it very rare to need shims under the bearings when using all factory parts. The only time I've had to shim was when setting up an early Halibrand quick-change diff.
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Old 09-05-2016, 04:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Endy View Post
My technique is to bolt the right axle housing to the right side of the banjo with no gaskets and torque the bolts down to 35 ft. lbs. With the carrier assembly installed I add two .010 gaskets to the left side of the banjo and attached the left axle housing and begin pulling all the bolts down toward 35 ft. lbs. stopping periodically to check that I can turn the ring gear with my finger by reaching in through the torque tube flange on the banjo. If I feel it getting too tight I stop and add one or more gaskets. In this manner no strain is put on any of the hardware.

Two .010 gaskets is the least amount of gaskets I want to end up with. Anything less and there is liable to be an oil leak.

Tom Endy

Al,
Like Tom I have done many rear axles... our only difference is I go ahead and split the .020 thickness and mount a .010 gasket on each side as a starting point.And adjust add subtract, change left to right as needed for proper gear contact and preload. dab 4 small points of rtv at equal places to hold the gaskets and then see where things fall. A agree with Tom that I have never had to shim or adjust the Pinion bearing/race by shimming it. Your tooth contact is dictated fine by the preload and shim of the carrier bearings by the various gasket thicknesses.

Once correct gasket thickness is determined seal well with a skim of rtv including a little on the threads ( especially lower half) of carrier bolts to ensure that there is no leakage there.

Good luck!
Larry Shepard
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Old 09-05-2016, 04:27 PM   #20
Dave in MN
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Default Re: Move Pinion forward and back per Les Andrews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
I find it very rare to need shims under the bearings when using all factory parts. The only time I've had to shim was when setting up an early Halibrand quick-change diff.
The two differentials where we shimmed the pinion were assembled with after-market gear sets. My new 4:11 set was of great concern to me as I knew it would not hold up with the excessive backlash and a contact pattern terminating at the crest of the pinion teeth. The differential assembled at the clinic would have worked without shimming the pinion but it was far from ideal with as many gaskets moved as possible.

The reason for my post and hosting an in-shop clinic was to get the info out there that an almost perfect fit can be obtained by shimming the pinion gear.

Good Day!

Last edited by Dave in MN; 09-06-2016 at 10:03 AM.
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