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Old 04-12-2018, 11:45 PM   #21
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post
Not to get off topic but why would Ford have used much softer babbit in the Model A?

Ford used 86-7-7, in his Model T's, A's, and Model B's. If any one has lead in there motor, it has been replaced. During the war, the government had most of the Tin, so bearing builders had to use lead.


If Plastigage does not work for you, its not being used correctly.


Just about all Bearing Manufactures in the U.S. used Grade No.11, Grade 2, and Fords are all right, But Fords is dirty to machine, because of the amount of Antimony used.


Ford said, a 1 inch square of there Babbitt compressed to 14,000 pounds, would only compress, 2%, and that is way over what is needed. The proper clearance for a Model A shaft is .001-60 to not over .002-10


When a bearing has been adjusted down .006 thousandths, it is about time for new Babbitt any way, as the time gears are closer, and after you scrape, is even worse. The rear main will leak more, as the clearance up and down may be right, but the sides will always be standard, or what ever the hole size was when the new Babbitt was put in.


I built 3 engines for a Howard Kittleson in Mn. in the 80's some time. Two Model t's, and one Model A. His 1927 T Roadster went on the AK. tour. There is a lot to tell, but I will make it as short as I can. When he got back, he had 18,000 miles on it and wanted the mains and rods checked. I pulled a.001 shim out of each rod, and stuck the engine, so I had to put them back. Done the same with the mains. He run the car wide open all the time. I told him to use 30 Wt., but he said he used 10-30 Wt., What could I say, NOTHING.


If you have Babbitt that is wearing, better check, and see why. The shaft should not be touching the Babbitt, it should be setting on oil molecule.


I have a few pictures of failed main cap, and showing what happened. I will put the first set on of what a original Ford Babbitt job looks like. The failed caps are of builders, we all know, and love.


Herm.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 003.jpg (58.9 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 005.jpg (49.4 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 007.jpg (63.6 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 009.jpg (40.9 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 011.jpg (58.1 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 013.jpg (53.8 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 015.jpg (64.9 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 017.jpg (60.4 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 021.jpg (58.4 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 024.jpg (48.1 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 025.jpg (40.1 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 028.jpg (33.7 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Model T & A Main Caps that failed, after New Babbitt Jobs. 029.jpg (55.1 KB, 67 views)

Last edited by Kohnke Rebabbitting; 04-13-2018 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
Ford used 86-7-7, in his Model T's, A's, and Model B's. If any one has lead in there motor, it has been replaced. During the war, the government had most of the Tin, so bearing builders had to use lead.


If Plastigage does not work for you, its not being used correctly.


Just about all Bearing Manufactures in the U.S. used Grade No.11, Grade 2, and Fords are all right, But Fords is dirty to machine, because of the amount of Antimony used.


Ford said, a 1 inch square of there Babbitt compressed to 14,000 pounds, would only compress, 2%, and that is way over what is needed. The proper clearance for a Model A shaft is .001-60 to not over .002-10


When a bearing has been adjusted down .006 thousandths, it is about time for new Babbitt any way, as the time gears are closer, and after you scrape, is even worse. The rear main will leak more, as the clearance up and down may be right, but the sides will always be standard, or what ever the hole size was when the new Babbitt was put in.


I built 3 engines for a Howard Kittleson in Mn. in the 80's some time. Two Model t's, and one Model A. His 1927 T Roadster went on the AK. tour. There is a lot to tell, but I will make it as short as I can. When he got back, he had 18,000 miles on it and wanted the main and rods checked. I pulled a.001 shim out of each rod, and stuck the engine, so I had to put them back. Done the same with the mains. He run the car wide open all the time. I told him to use 30 Wt., but he said he used 10-30 Wt., What could I say, NOTHING.


If you have Babbitt that is wearing, better check, and see why. The shaft should not be touching the shaft, it should be setting on oil molecule.


I have a few pictures of failed main cap, and showing what happened. I will put the first set on of what a original Ford Babbitt job looks like. The failed caps are of builders, we all know, and love.


Herm.
Would that be Howard Kittleson of Blooming Prairie?
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:44 AM   #23
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

Mike, I'm off to work, but I will send you a PM if you don't mind. I would like to hear more about your experience. Greg
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

I know a fellow who had a babbitt engine done by Mike Richter of L&M Babbitt here in Denver. He drove it 35,000 miles and pulled one shim, it locked the crank.

He put shims back in and drove another 35,000 to 70,000 when it locked crank again.

Then he died and car was sold so we do not know if it is still running or not.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:19 PM   #25
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Would that be Howard Kittleson of Blooming Prairie?



Yup, he was a Hell of a nice Guy.


Herm.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

I have done it o two engines both re still running great - used plaic guage to fit.
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Yup, he was a Hell of a nice Guy.


Herm.
He's my cousin.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

Just to share a PM from Marshall V. Daut with a great point, my motor with the cracked babbitt ran quiet and did not pour out oil.. I disassembled this entire engine to clean and check/reassemble, as it was parked for many years. The babbitt under the cracked main cap is OK, so with all the great advice I will try to fit the donor. Bought a really nice, vintage scraper on ebay for $25, adding my $5 for the cap and I won't have too much invested in the venture. LOL, Greg.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:14 PM   #29
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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He's my cousin.

Well I'll be darned, small world. He and Edith are missed.


I have a bunch of stuff Howard sent me, I could copy it off, I think and send it to you. I rebuilt a Model A motor for him in 1993, or 94, and they went to AK. again with four other Model A's. That story is in their home town paper.


I would put all that stuff on here, but, I have a new PC, and none of my other equipment works with it. Maybe you can do it.


Send me your address, by PM.


Herm.
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

They make a compound to mix with engine oil. It is made to lap in a Babbitt bearing. I heard the Model T guys use it a lot. I have used it myself on the A engine. It did a beautiful job. Just wash out with kerosene when done. If any particles left in place they will not hurt anything.
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:41 PM   #31
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Originally Posted by fordfixer View Post
They make a compound to mix with engine oil. It is made to lap in a Babbitt bearing. I heard the Model T guys use it a lot. I have used it myself on the A engine. It did a beautiful job. Just wash out with kerosene when done. If any particles left in place they will not hurt anything.

It is called time saver. It can cause problems with alignment of a used crank, and Babbitt.


Herm.
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:54 PM   #32
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Originally Posted by Nosetime View Post
Just to share a PM from Marshall V. Daut with a great point, my motor with the cracked babbitt ran quiet and did not pour out oil.. I disassembled this entire engine to clean and check/reassemble, as it was parked for many years. The babbitt under the cracked main cap is OK, so with all the great advice I will try to fit the donor. Bought a really nice, vintage scraper on ebay for $25, adding my $5 for the cap and I won't have too much invested in the venture. LOL, Greg.
Good luck,post up how it comes out.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:43 AM   #33
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
Well I'll be darned, small world. He and Edith are missed.


I have a bunch of stuff Howard sent me, I could copy it off, I think and send it to you. I rebuilt a Model A motor for him in 1993, or 94, and they went to AK. again with four other Model A's. That story is in their home town paper.


I would put all that stuff on here, but, I have a new PC, and none of my other equipment works with it. Maybe you can do it.


Send me your address, by PM.


Herm.
Herm, After poking around on the internet and thinking about what you said about Howard being missed, we may have different Howards in mind. My cousin is 74, same age as me, and I don't think his wife is named Edith. I found another Howard Kittelson (note spelling 'elson', ours is 'leson') in Minnesota, in his 90's. My cousin is now living in Owatonna, MN and as far as I know, still alive. Sorry if I caused any confusion!
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:43 PM   #34
Nosetime
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

Well, got my Babbitt tool, what a beautiful piece of art! Then it occurred to me I have the extra main caps to practice on! A few strokes on the stone and my tool was sharp. But, what I did not expect is how enjoyable...read therapeutic or stress relieving to pull a few curls on the babbitt! I really had fun getting the feel of this and am really looking forward to fitting my cap! Thanks to all for the help. BTW, I just ordered a 30-31 Brookville roadster body today. I hope scraping my own rear main babbitt will give me a pass on the new body from the Barn! Ha ha. I just could not do an original body build, but think I am staying true to the spirit of the car. I will do another post later on that whole deal! Greg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4nOQJJNSSSSwxX7OvGeBdw.jpg (78.9 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg %PRqzbETRciZjYArLBTj8w.jpg (88.9 KB, 33 views)

Last edited by Nosetime; 04-18-2018 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:58 PM   #35
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Herm, After poking around on the internet and thinking about what you said about Howard being missed, we may have different Howards in mind. My cousin is 74, same age as me, and I don't think his wife is named Edith. I found another Howard Kittelson (note spelling 'elson', ours is 'leson') in Minnesota, in his 90's. My cousin is now living in Owatonna, MN and as far as I know, still alive. Sorry if I caused any confusion!



Did he have, or used to have Model T's?, and go to AK. ? on a trip.






Herm.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:40 AM   #36
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Default Re: Lesser of two evils..cracked main babbit or used replacement?

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Did he have, or used to have Model T's?, and go to AK. ? on a trip.






Herm.
I don't remember hearing if he did that or not. My younger brother is farming the home place. I'll check with him tomorrow.
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